Dubliner kills two kids and walks free

pcardin

hondasam wrote: »

He wants to serve his sentence here, how is that walking free?

Don't forget this is Ireland and everyone is getting manslaughter which basically means slap on the sholder and promisse never do that again. :mad:

Theta

pcardin wrote: »

Don't forget this is Ireland and everyone is getting manslaughter which basically means slap on the sholder and promisse never do that again. :mad:

From what I understand this is more of a limitation of the Irish legal system. We dont really do degrees of murder here like say the US so we have Murder -> Manslaughter where as others have Murder 1 -> Murder 2 -> Murder 3 -> Manslaughter.

prinz

Theta wrote: »

The JUSTICE system is based on law and fact not emotions or a moral compass and it has found no case for the man to answer.

He was found guilty by a court and sentenced to prison time. That's justice. He has a case to answer.

Theta

prinz wrote: »

He was found guilty by a court and sentenced to prison time. That's justice. He has a case to answer.

Not by the Irish judicial system (which is the debate here) and he was convicted in absentia without defending himself.

ResearchWill

prinz wrote: »

He was found guilty by a court and sentenced to prison time. That's justice. He has a case to answer.

Can you even accept that the decision was flawed. Independent link I have posted backs up his story, he was never given opportunity to have car examined. Subsequently the same make model and year had to be recalled because of brake failure. Also reported cases of steering failure and acceleration when no foot on accelerator.

To accept a bad decision of a court the goes against the evidence is tyranny. I really can't believe, people won't even look at the other evidence, won't even take it on board, it's as if when anyone dies someone must be blamed no matter what.

prinz

Theta wrote: »

Not by the Irish judicial system (which is the debate here)....

The Irish judicial system has no role whatsoever in charging or convicting him for the offence. They were only interested in the technicalities of extradition... they found they can't extradite him. So what? He still has a case to answer over the crash because he was still convicted under the Hungarian justice system that you seem so fond of supporting... right?

The JUSTICE system is based on law and fact not emotions or a moral compass and it has found no case for the man to answer.

The HUNGARIAN JUSTICE system is based on law and fact and it has found that he has a case to answer.

Basically the complainted boil down to, don't trust the Hungarians. Charming.... especially as partners in a union one of the central tenets of which is agreeing to mutually respect each others legal decisions. The Irish state saw fit to agree to the Hungarian legal system as trustworthy.

prinz

ResearchWill wrote: »

Can you even accept that the decision was flawed....

Do I know for certain it was flawed, no. Am I going to presume it was flawed? No.

Theta

prinz wrote: »

The Irish judicial system has no role whatsoever in charging or convicting him for the offence. They were only interested in the technicalities of extradition... they found they can't extradite him. So what? He still has a case to answer over the crash because he was still convicted under the Hungarian justice system that you seem so fond of supporting... right?



The HUNGARIAN JUSTICE system is based on law and fact and it has found that he has a case to answer.

Basically the complainted boil down to, don't trust the Hungarians. Charming.... especially as partners in a union one of the central tenets of which is agreeing to mutually respect each others legal decisions. The Irish state saw fit to agree to the Hungarian legal system as trustworthy.

I never said don't trust the Hungarians did I? The argument of many people here is that we should send him back to serve is time but our laws have found that we cant and that is the point I am trying to make.

The Hungarian legal system i'm sure is just as reputable as ours but I think it is a travesty to convict a man of a crime if he is guilty or not without allowing him to defend himself.

Zulu

prinz wrote: »

The HUNGARIAN JUSTICE system is based on law and fact and it has found that he has a case to answer.

You believe the Hungarian justice system is beyond reproach? Interesting.

Zulu

Burn the witch!!!!

prinz

Theta wrote: »

I never said don't trust the Hungarians did I?

When you said he had "no case to answer" it sounded a lot like you were referring to the actual accident. Not only did he have a case to answer, but he was convicted... in a court of law.:eek:. It's amazing how courts are so important afterwards, but some can disregard the original conviction very easily.

Zulu wrote: »

You believe the Hungarian justice system is beyond reproach? Interesting.

Where did I say it was beyond reproach? I merely stated that we as a state and member of the EU have decided to have a mutual agreement to recognise the legal system, process and decisions in Hungary. There's no point coming back and moaning as if he was convicted in lawless Somalia ffs.

Zulu

prinz wrote: »

Where did I say it was beyond reproach?.

You didn't. You also didn't think of questioning the judgment against him, where he wasn't there to defend himself & where (it would appear) critical evidence was omitted.

But again, why let the truth stop you?

prinz

Zulu wrote: »

But again, why let the truth stop you?

He wasn't there in person because he chose not to be. He still had legal counsel defend his case.

After a significant delay, Mr. Tobin was charged with a Hungarian offence of negligent driving causing Death, In a Common Law country, such as Ireland, Britain, America, Canada, Australia etc., such a charge would involve an obligation on the person charged to attend Court. But this is not so in Hungary: a person charged with such an offence can remain away from Court and, if he wishes, can be represented by lawyers at the Court proceedings. It is now agreed by both sides that this is so, and that is what Mr. Tobin did.

He remained away from proceedings because he wished to remain away. Not because there was some devilish machiavellian plot to convict him in his absence without his knowledge...

14 June 2001 Respondent writes letter to be passed on to Court asking that his presence be excused.

Theta

prinz wrote: »

When you said he had "no case to answer" it sounded a lot like you were referring to the actual accident. Not only did he have a case to answer, but he was convicted... in a court of law.:eek:. It's amazing how courts are so important afterwards, but some can disregard the original conviction very easily.

I may have been unclear but I was stating he has no case to answer under Irish law which is the discussion of this topic.

Fuinseog

prinz wrote: »

He was found guilty by a court and sentenced to prison time. That's justice. He has a case to answer.

apparently not. he was found guilty in a foreign court,albeit a fellow EU member state,which is apparently inferior to ours. if he goes back to Hungary he might have to go to a real prison, which would mean taking a leave of absence from work and having to put up with Johnny foreigner who don't speak English. this would a terrible inconvenience.

what happened to michaela Mc in Mauritius, a topic the Irish media is obsessed with could be construed merely as a robbery that went wrong and the culprits should not be pursued.

Fuinseog

ResearchWill wrote: »

I know I know, it's a fault of mine, but why let the truth get in the way of someone's right to a bit of bile and indignation over another human being.[/QUOT


thats right, its the wealthy Irish business man who deserves our sympathy, not the Hungarian family.

Fuinseog

Theta wrote: »

Not by the Irish judicial system (which is the debate here) and he was convicted in absentia without defending himself.

he chose not to attend the court. Hungary is a democratic EU state, not some dictatorship where natural justice is denied.

Theta

Fuinseog wrote: »

apparently not. he was found guilty in a foreign court,albeit a fellow EU member state,which is apparently inferior to ours. if he goes back to Hungary he might have to go to a real prison, which would mean taking a leave of absence from work and having to put up with Johnny foreigner who don't speak English. this would a terrible inconvenience.

what happened to michaela Mc in Mauritius, a topic the Irish media is obsessed with could be construed merely as a robbery that went wrong and the culprits should not be pursued.

Are you serious? Do you genuinely not read the facts of the case? If he legally had to go back to Hungary the courts would have enforced the order but he does not under Irish law. It was not done because he was a sound fella or because it might be heartbreaking for him it was because law cannot make him.

Would you prefer an illegal extradition?

Fuinseog

Theta wrote: »

I never said don't trust the Hungarians did I? The argument of many people here is that we should send him back to serve is time but our laws have found that we cant and that is the point I am trying to make.

The Hungarian legal system i'm sure is just as reputable as ours but I think it is a travesty to convict a man of a crime if he is guilty or not without allowing him to defend himself.

are these the same laws that protected IRA gunmen from extradition to Britain?

he would have been allowed to defend himself, but he chose not to appear. now, if I do the same in Ireland they send out a summons for my arrest.

prinz

Theta wrote: »

Would you prefer an illegal extradition?

Nope..... but crazy idea as it is, he could always voluntarily return.

Zulu

Fuinseog wrote: »

thats right, its the wealthy Irish business man who deserves our sympathy, not the Hungarian family.

They have our sympathy.

I know this will seem alien & bizarre to you, but an ability to recognise both side of the story isn't mutually exclusive to having sympathy.

...but don't worry about that - chase your pound of flesh.

prinz

Zulu wrote: »

...but don't worry about that - chase your pound of flesh.

I didn't realise that expecting people to serve the sentences they've been lawfully sentenced to, or at least follow the correct procedures in appealling that conviction, equated to a pound of flesh these days.

Crann na Beatha

This post has been deleted.

bee_keeper

Fuinseog wrote: »

he chose not to attend the court. Hungary is a democratic EU state, not some dictatorship where natural justice is denied.

hungary is a very corrupt place

Fuinseog

Aquila wrote: »

Does anyone have the full facts of this tragic story?

my sources of information are recent newspaper reports and the news. Details there are scant. It was mentioned briefly somewhere on boards last year and likely to be make news again. I started his thread because I felt an injustice was being sidelined.

Fuinseog

bee_keeper wrote: »

hungary is a very corrupt place

more than this country?

prinz

Aquila wrote: »

Does anyone have the full facts of this tragic story?

The Supreme Court rulings have a good summary of the basics. There's a bit of he said/she said, plus the differences between a common law system and civil law system seem to be confusing a lot of people here.

Theta

Fuinseog wrote: »

my sources of information are recent newspaper reports and the news. Details there are scant. It was mentioned briefly somewhere on boards last year and likely to be make news again. I started his thread because I felt an injustice was being sidelined.

There are loads of details available through the official court papers if you want to read it which you haven't bothered and are reading third party sources.

Fuinseog wrote: »

more than this country?

Ireland is ranked 15 - 19th on the international corruption index Hungary is ranked somewhere between 40 and 50 depending on the survey.

These surveys are subjective but the answer to your question would appear to be yes.

prinz

Theta wrote: »

There are loads of details available through the official court papers if you want to read it which you haven't bothered and are reading third party sources..

I don't think you should be taking any sort of moral high-ground with regard to reading the details of the case when you made this claim..

Theta wrote: »

I think it is a travesty to convict a man of a crime if he is guilty or not without allowing him to defend himself.

..only a page back on this thread when 'court papers' clearly show his legal team defended him and he was personally absent at his own request.

bee_keeper

Fuinseog wrote: »

more than this country?

you obviously dont know much about hungary