New laws for commercial vehicles- Serious Stuff

Going Forward

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/pdf/2012/en.act.2012.0016.pdf

This is a serious piece of police state stuff for anyone who owns a commercial vehicle-

Page 24 of 37 says that:
Premises can be entered and vehicles and documents searched by the RSA to find DOE Certs AND records of repairs or maintenance on vehicles.

"an
authorised officer may, at any reasonable time, enter any premises
in which he or she believes on reasonable grounds one or more CVR
vehicles, or any records or documentation relating to CVR vehicles,
are kept and may—
(a) search the premises in order to locate the CVR vehicle
or vehicles,
(b) inspect the vehicle or vehicles and any facilities or equipment
used for the repair or maintenance of vehicles,
(c) require the owner, or the person in charge, of the premises
or the vehicle, to produce to him or her any books, documents
or records relating to the testing, inspection, repair
and maintenance of the vehicle or vehicles which are in
the person’s power or control (and in the case of such
information in a non-legible form to reproduce it in a
legible form) and to give to him or her such information
as he or she may reasonably require in relation to any
entries in such books, documents or records,
(d) inspect and take extracts from or make copies of any
books, documents or records referred to in paragraph (c)
(including in the case of information in a non-legible form
a copy of or extract from such information in a legible
form),
(e) remove and retain such books, documents or records for
such period as may be reasonable for further examination,
and
(f) require any person in charge of the premises to give him
or her any information or data which he or she may
reasonably require with regard to the CVR testing,
inspection, repair or maintenance of the vehicle or vehicles.

Plus, theres going to be an annual declaration required to be signed by owners to say that they are maintaining vehicles properly.

I didnt realise there were so much problems in the DOE testing setup-
The NCT was the one on Prime Time.

Nissan doctor

The problem is that DOE centres are independently run and so very open to abuse by people who know lads who work there etc etc.

Its likely to do with the amount of sh1t box company vehicles on the road too, sure wasn't there a thread only recently about a van doing deliveries in Dublin in a completely unroadworthy state, but the owner didn't care.

Yawns

This I believe doc
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=78487334

Pottler

Nissan doctor wrote: »

The problem is that DOE centres are independently run and so very open to abuse by people who know lads who work there etc etc.

Its likely to do with the amount of sh1t box company vehicles on the road too, sure wasn't there a thread only recently about a van doing deliveries in Dublin in a completely unroadworthy state, but the owner didn't care.

Or that certain van in Kildare still doing daily deliveries despite being in a severe crash that half demolished the drivers front and side. I had to do a double take when I saw it being driven and a severe head shake when I saw it again, and then again, doing deliveries.

Going Forward

Going Forward wrote: »

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/pdf/2012/en.act.2012.0016.pdf

This is a serious piece of police state stuff for anyone who owns a commercial vehicle-............

Might save a life or two.

Going Forward

Pottler wrote: »

Or that certain van in Kildare still doing daily deliveries despite being in a severe crash that half demolished the drivers front and side. I had to do a double take when I saw it being driven and a severe head shake when I saw it again, and then again, doing deliveries.

Crazy stuff, surely the gaurds have seen this as well then??

Going Forward

RoverJames wrote: »

Might save a life or two.

Maybe so!
I can only imagine it would be rejected if it was applied to private cars and NCT's as well.

cormie

So as long as the vans are kept in good shape, then nobody should ever have reasonable grounds to need to inspect anything?

Wishbone Ash

cormie wrote: »

So as long as the vans are kept in good shape, then nobody should ever have reasonable grounds to need to inspect anything?

Presumably inspections would be required to ensure that they are being "kept in good shape". I'm sure many self employed people would like us to think that their tax affairs are in good shape also!

cormie

Well tax affairs aren't assessed yearly by government appointed bodies, vehicles are by VTN centres. Just curious what "grounds" an officer needs to raid my place?

Going Forward

cormie wrote: »

Well tax affairs aren't assessed yearly by government appointed bodies, vehicles are by VTN centres. Just curious what "grounds" an officer needs to raid my place?

Revenue?

If your vehicle presents with serious defects, from what I can see.

Test results will be transmitted simultaneously from the DOE centre to the RSa.

cormie

Revenue are given reports from yourself or your accountant and assume it to be legitimate.

That would be like going to the DOE centre and telling them your vehicle is grand and nothing to worry about and just being handed a cert.

Anything that keeps dodgy vehicles off the road is a good thing, just as long as they don't start abusing this with firms who have all their vehicles DOE'd when due and repairs carried out on vehicles as soon as problems present themselves!

rebel.ranter

Do you honestly think this is going to make a blind bit of difference? Gardai don't have the manpower and/or interest to enforce the regulations that are already in existence.
The reason that any legislation has to be written in such an explicit & heavy handed manner is because there's always some chancer looking for a loop hole to get out of his responsibility.
If you're keeping your company vehicle in good order in accordance with the law then you'll never have to worry about any of this. If you're a chancer that skirts the law then this gives the Gardai the extraleverage to deal with them, the likes of the delivery guy being mentioned in earlier posts. In general they have enough obvious violations to keep them busy without having to go digging, this gives them the power when they do need to go digging.

dr.fuzzenstein

Pottler wrote: »

Or that certain van in Kildare still doing daily deliveries despite being in a severe crash that half demolished the drivers front and side. I had to do a double take when I saw it being driven and a severe head shake when I saw it again, and then again, doing deliveries.

This is a typical example of doing it the Irish way. I'm sure the Gards must have spotted him, or maybe they just happened to be looking in another direction, hey look, there's a special on breakfast rolls in Centra type of thing.
If there's a problem, introduce a law. Don't bother your hole enforcing it. Cue mass hysteria by the usual screaming ninnies, won't someone please think of the children, etc...
Introduce more laws, level of enforcement still zero.
More hysteria, more down with that sort of thing, more laws, etc...
It's like not opening the nozzle to a garden hose and trying to increase the flow of water by opening the tap at the wall further and further. And ignoring all the people screaming at you to open the bloody nozzle, in fact, go so far as to get expert testimony that opening the nozzle has nothing to do whatsoever with the flow of water.
Because if the DOE and Gardai did their job properly in the first place, we wouldn't have people driving around in cars that look like they got them of the scrapyard or out of a ditch.
So just expect these laws to go onto an already massive pile of shiny new laws that are already getting ignored, because there's either no one there to enforce them, or that person is out to lunch.

L-M

The DOE is a farce.

The amount of jeeps and vans i see going around with broken taillights is unreal. How do these all pass a DOE? They're either not doing the test (which they need to tax it AFAiK) or someone is letting them slide.

Why doesn't the doe have a disk like NCT?

Elessar

Isn't a court order or warrant required for anyone to search your home?

Surely the RSA can't just show up on your door, walk in and have a nose around?

cormie

Limerick man wrote: »

The DOE is a farce.

The amount of jeeps and vans i see going around with broken taillights is unreal. How do these all pass a DOE? They're either not doing the test (which they need to tax it AFAiK) or someone is letting them slide.

Why doesn't the doe have a disk like NCT?

If my tax expires on tomorrow and my DOE expires the day after, I can tax the vehicle for a year and not do for another year until I need to tax it again. It's a bit of a joke alright!

L-M

cormie wrote: »

If my tax expires on tomorrow and my DOE expires the day after, I can tax the vehicle for a year and not do for another year until I need to tax it again. It's a bit of a joke alright!

Yeah, i know that. The whole, tax for 6, then for 3, then for 12 comes into play there!

pred racer

Limerick man wrote: »

Yeah, i know that. The whole, tax for 6, then for 3, then for 12 comes into play there!

My Dad used to do this, until i showed him the bit in his insurance policy that said a valid doe was one of the conditions of insurance!

Del2005

Elessar wrote: »

Isn't a court order or warrant required for anyone to search your home?

Surely the RSA can't just show up on your door, walk in and have a nose around?

Customs have huge power and can enter almost everywhere. Gardaí can enter without a warrant in a fair few instances.

If this becomes law then, yes the RSA will be able to enter your house.

thecomedian

I have an old van that hasnt been used for 2 years. Can I get private tax on it, as I will only be using it for personal use?

Mycroft H

Just commercial tax it.

thecomedian

BX 19 wrote: »

Just commercial tax it.

They gave me a goods only declaration form to fill in and signed by the guards.
It also requires my income tax registration no. And confirm my business is registered with the revenue commissioners.
Is this important?

I don't remember any of this 2/3 years ago
I don't have a business by the way.

Pottler

thecomedian wrote: »

They gave me a goods only declaration form to fill in and signed by the guards.
It also requires my income tax registration no. And confirm my business is registered with the revenue commissioners.
Is this important?

I don't remember any of this 2/3 years ago
I don't have a business by the way.

Scaring Billy goats gruff not a business?

Weylin

thecomedian wrote: »

I have an old van that hasnt been used for 2 years. Can I get private tax on it, as I will only be using it for personal use?

no problem,fill out the form and declare for personel use,but you could be paying over a grand if it over 2.0litre :eek: it will still need to be tested.also insurance/cops will take a dim view if you use it as a "commerical" van, as u have declared it private use only.

Saab Ed

Just like everything Irish, very little will be enforced but everybody will be made pay for it. Just like the food regs, the building regs (Priory Hall anyone) and so on, its just going to be law on paper.

I guess there's no money left in the kitty to pay some useless lump, 3 stories up in some quango that reports to 10 others before something doesn't get done. So they've just decided to print an official document on already eixisting laws and scare the hell outta people to pay up to , oh I dont know, say €146 a year (sounds like a D.O.E, plucked from the air sorta figure) for a certificate of compliance of some sort. One third of the money will go towrads the numb nuts who currently has fook all to do and the other two thirds will go towards some German WBankers pension. Total Irish [EMAIL="B@ll@cks"]B@ll@cks[/EMAIL]

L1011

Max 3 months in prison for the owner (even if its not them driving) for not having a DOE - that might change the attitude of a few people I know...

Farmer Pudsey

thecomedian wrote: »

They gave me a goods only declaration form to fill in and signed by the guards.
It also requires my income tax registration no. And confirm my business is registered with the revenue commissioners.
Is this important?

I don't remember any of this 2/3 years ago
I don't have a business by the way.

A van is for use in your buisness, trade or profession. So you do not have to have a buisness as long as you are employed in a trade or profession. If you pay tax employed as a tradesman carpenter/blocklayer or a professional Engineer/Doctor you are entitle to use a van for work purposes as far as I know.

Going Forward

Limerick man wrote: »

The DOE is a farce.

The amount of jeeps and vans i see going around with broken taillights is unreal. How do these all pass a DOE? They're either not doing the test (which they need to tax it AFAiK) or someone is letting them slide.

Why doesn't the doe have a disk like NCT?

The gaurds see what they want to see, they can catch oul' fellas with a pint on board but they cant catch the fellas with 1000 litres of someone else's home heating oil behind them. Amazing.

As for the DOE having a disc, well, thats way too simple an idea for Ireland.:rolleyes:

Mycroft H

Going Forward wrote: »

The gaurds see what they want to see, they can catch oul' fellas with a pint on board but they cant catch the fellas with 1000 litres of someone else's home heating oil behind them. Amazing.

As for the DOE having a disc, well, thats way too simple an idea for Ireland.:rolleyes:

And having to pay the council 6 quid for their version of the DOE cert :rolleyes:

Markcheese

In Australia, the police would put a bright coloured sticker on the window of any car/van they thought was in need of a test, you had a week or so to get it tested .... And it was an offence to remove the sticker....

Going Forward

Del2005 wrote: »

Customs have huge power and can enter almost everywhere. Gardaí can enter without a warrant in a fair few instances.

If this becomes law then, yes the RSA will be able to enter your house.

So now jumped up transport officers who are subject to absolutely NO external audit can smash down someones doors in a "search" for paperwork!!!!!!!!

And we take it all lying down as usual.:mad:

Time to talk to Joe........!

dr.fuzzenstein

MYOB wrote: »

Max 3 months in prison for the owner (even if its not them driving) for not having a DOE - that might change the attitude of a few people I know...

Ah yes, prison. The "one size fits all" miracle weapon that solves all problems for everyone in this country.
It is simply a sign of no enforcement.
If DOE regulations where properly enforced, a €100 fine would do the job.

Mycroft H

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Ah yes, prison. The "one size fits all" miracle weapon that solves all problems for everyone in this country.
It is simply a sign of no enforcement.
If DOE regulations where properly enforced, a €100 fine would do the job.

I'd go with 5 penalty points and a 300 euro fixed penalty notice.

cormie

BX 19 wrote: »

I'd go with 5 penalty points and a 300 euro fixed penalty notice.

That would be fair enough, but there should be a bit of buffer room. With the NCT, you can test it I think up to 3 months in advance of the expiry date and you'll get your new cert to expire on the same date 2 years down the line (or 1 for older cars now?). With the DOE, it expires a year after whatever day it's tested. Which means in order not to be driving around without a DOE you'd want to be sure it passes before this date. I think there should be a buffer of the same period you can go for a restest, what is it, 21 days or something?

Del2005

BX 19 wrote: »

I'd go with 5 penalty points and a 300 euro fixed penalty notice.

It already is 5 points with a Court fine.


Lack of enforcement is the issue not the lack of laws.

Mycroft H

cormie wrote: »

That would be fair enough, but there should be a bit of buffer room. With the NCT, you can test it I think up to 3 months in advance of the expiry date and you'll get your new cert to expire on the same date 2 years down the line (or 1 for older cars now?). With the DOE, it expires a year after whatever day it's tested. Which means in order not to be driving around without a DOE you'd want to be sure it passes before this date. I think there should be a buffer of the same period you can go for a restest, what is it, 21 days or something?

I'm pretty sure you can get it tested before it expires.

Going Forward

BX 19 wrote: »

I'm pretty sure you can get it tested before it expires.

You can but your new cert will be dated from the test date, so if you bring your CV in a month early, you lose a month of your current DOE.

They are tyring to instill a culture of maintenance rather than repair of CVs, thats no bad thing, but the heavy handedness of these laws ( for all van, jeep, lorry owners etc. in the country) is unprecedented IMO.

Presumably the "farming community" have managed to get their colossal tractors and other road-using machinery exempt from this by virtue of the fact that they are "work vehicles" and as such require special treatment compared to everyone else.

I'm pretty sure mechanical failure rates very low on the list compared to driver error in the already low number of accidents involving CVs.