[MERGED] Syrian rebellion, troop movement & negotiations

teddy_irish

18+ this video is showing the bad end of one of the so called "rebels" - the commander Hossam Abu El Fadl hit by a shell of the Syrian Secure Forces who is playing with the mine shooter... I was using the google automatic translator to see the name of the movie clip. Please note those wahabits which repeat only Alah Akbar and nothing more... Well does anybody expect these people to be a democratic fighters or protesters??? I really doubt so...

Higher

teddy_irish wrote: »

18+ this video is showing the bad end of one of the so called "rebels" - the commander Hossam Abu El Fadl hit by a shell of the Syrian Secure Forces who is playing with the mine shooter... I was using the google automatic translator to see the name of the movie clip. Please note those wahabits which repeat only Alah Akbar and nothing more... Well does anybody expect these people to be a democratic fighters or protesters??? I really doubt so...

Not trying to have a go but is English your first language? It's just I find it hard to understand you. Apologies if you're foreign but what you have posted doesn't make sense...

Suff

Sadly, when an opinion is being put on the table people immediately jump to the conclusion that its pro-assad.

So what's happening in Syria? I have lived and witnessed 11 months of this 'revolution' and regardless of how the internal events are progressing in Syria, we all know how horrible they're getting, some cannot tolerate that there's a plot being cooked from the outside. The current forces at fighting in Syria are just as bad, but why does our opinion
have to be limited to either a pro vs opposition? Its not as black and white as you think it is, and for example when we talk about Al jazeera people are quick to mention Al douina and all the other pro regime media channels. They're both as bad and corrupt. If we truly care about the future of Syria we need to deny both of these factions our support and voice. Again, its not a pro vs against regime discussion, and it upsetting that every time such a topic is brought up people think that it's to defend the actions of the regime. Its not, the issue is much, much bigger. Why do you think USA, France, UK, Russia, China and all the other countries are arguing about Syria? I see it as world war 3 being fought on my home country.
As for the support of the FSA, well my worry is that the situation is using the following approach: A house infested with ants! use a spider, then use a mouse then a cat, a dog, a wolf, a bear, a dinosaur!! and as we've seen its getting worst and worst. hence heading from one form of extremism/ Fascism to another.

Whats the solution? in my honest opinion we (Syrians) need to unit as a nation. Both sides of this conflict doesn't represent the Syrian people then why they're finding support within the Syrian society? We know what we want, but our problem is that that we're hypocrites - we want some one to lead but too afraid to follow.

I am sick and tired of anti-assad posts, we know he's part of the problem, and also part of the solution. This blaming game has gone old and stale. We need to move forward, adopt a REAL solution and not one that involves more blood.

stevedublin

Suff wrote: »

We need to move forward, adopt a REAL solution and not one that involves more blood.

Balkanising the country?

plasmaguy

Suff wrote: »

Whats the solution? in my honest opinion we (Syrians) need to unit as a nation. Both sides of this conflict doesn't represent the Syrian people then why they're finding support within the Syrian society? We know what we want, but our problem is that that we're hypocrites - we want some one to lead but too afraid to follow.

I am sick and tired of anti-assad posts, we know he's part of the problem, and also part of the solution. This blaming game has gone old and stale. We need to move forward, adopt a REAL solution and not one that involves more blood.

How is he part of the solution? When will it occur to you that the words 'compromise', 'step down' and 'democracy' are not part of Assad's vocabulary?

It took Kofi Annan 6 months to work that bit out when I and others could have told Annan that before he even went to Syria.

When a thug like Assad does evil things people inevitably are going to call him evil. That's a fact of life.

With Assad, Iran, Russia, etc unwilling to compromise and not understanding the mean of the word, a negotiated peace settlement is never ever going to happen as long as Assad is in control of the levers of power.

The cold hard reality here is Assad is going to try to tough it out and keep killing until eventually he wins or the rest of the world gets bored and moves on to something else.

He hasn't the slightest inclination to step down or negotiate or anything of the like.

Am I the only here that has a realistic assessment of Assad and what he plans to do?

There simply can't be negotiation with this guy. Like Gadaffi he has chosen a certain path, kill or be killed. Its unfortunate that tens of thousands more Syrians will have to die before Assad is forced from power, if that happens. But I can tell you this it will be a cold day in hell before Assad voluntarily steps down. We know how Gadaffi 'stepped down' and it's likely going to be the same with Assad but it will take a long time of bloody fighting, years I would say given the current stalemate.

We need realism here not airy fairy notions of Assad negotiating with the opposition. He's already killed most of the opposition and he's intent on killing the rest. Let's be realistic. Idealism was blown to pieces months ago by Assad.

plasmaguy

teddy_irish wrote: »

18+ this video is showing the bad end of one of the so called "rebels" - the commander Hossam Abu El Fadl hit by a shell of the Syrian Secure Forces who is playing with the mine shooter... I was using the google automatic translator to see the name of the movie clip. Please note those wahabits which repeat only Alah Akbar and nothing more... Well does anybody expect these people to be a democratic fighters or protesters??? I really doubt so...

Alah Akbar is as common a phrase in the arab world as thanks be to god is in Ireland. In fact they are both similar phrases.

Everyone in the Arab World uses it, FSA fighters, Syrian Army soldiers when they are involved in battle, farmers, civilians, moderate muslims, radicals, everyone, as a form of thanks giving.

The FSA can't help it if extremists fight along side them, its not their fault. There is a small extremist element fighting alongside the FSA. I was reading a report on one of the newspaper sites that the first rebel groups to run away from Aleppo were the extremists, after telling everyone beforehand how brave they were.

FSA are a serious fighting force although poorly armed but very brave considering what they are facing, tanks, helicoptors, migs, etc. The extremists are just opportunists who show up after the fighting is done.

plasmaguy

WakeUp wrote: »

Well some American politicians seem to believe the US are deeply involved in direct and indirect military involvement in Syria. But they would be "CT'rs" too right?


Hillary Clinton - "Russia and China will pay a price" ( for blocking our plans )


And the reason the US wont invade on its own and why Hillary is getting her knickers in a twist is because the Russians are having none of it..


though if people wanna believe whats happening in Syria is hero population of non islamic terrorists in the main rising up and defeating the evil overlord Assad, then what can you do. Whatever the situation in Syria black and white it certainly is not.

There is no CT in Syria, CIA inspired or otherwise so stop peddling this nonsense. As for Ron Paul, give me a break, the guy is a bit of a joke at this stage, he'll say anything to get attention.

If the CIA wanted to seriously overthrow Assad, he'd already be overthrown at this stage. It took took them a few months to kill or capture Saddam and Gadaffi. If they want someone gone, he'll be gone in a few weeks or months.

It would start with arming the rebels with stinger missiles and proper sophisticated anti tank weapons. Also supplying them with heavy weapons.

If they wanted to get involved, they have a ready made force of thousands of FSA in Aleppo, who they could use to overthrow the regime. But those FSA are getting the sh*t kicked out of them by Assad tanks and aircraft meaning they'll be in retreat soon. So again little evidence the CIA is preventing that happening by providing better weapons, as opposed to the Ak 47s and RPGs they use.

SamHarris

WakeUp wrote: »

Well some American politicians seem to believe the US are deeply involved in direct and indirect military involvement in Syria. But they would be "CT'rs" too right?

Yes politicians can believe what they will based on little to no actual evidence, just like normal people. Crazy, eh?

WakeUp wrote: »

Hillary Clinton - "Russia and China will pay a price" ( for blocking our plans )

For blocking the UN resolution. If it were clandestine plans, why the hell would China and Russia know about it to block it?

This is very typical CT stuff. Take a clip, remove all context and replace it with one more aligned with the preconceived scenario. An excellent example of why rational debate on this topic should exclude CT crap.

Christ, CTers have actually taken a debate about the unrest in Syria and actually turned it into an American conspicary topic. Is there any particualr (negative) international event you people dont think was orcestrated by the CIA/ Zionists?

You do realise other people and parties have power and wills of their own, right?

WakeUp wrote: »

And the reason the US wont invade on its own and why Hillary is getting her knickers in a twist is because the Russians are having none of it..

No, they wont invade because there is no compeling reason to. Russia coudlnt stop the US invading a particular nation, especially in this region, if it needed to. Much less if it only WANTED to.

WakeUp wrote: »

though if people wanna believe whats happening in Syria is hero population of non islamic terrorists in the main rising up and defeating the evil overlord Assad, then what can you do. Whatever the situation in Syria black and white it certainly is not.

No, instead to you and others its the eeeevil West/CIA/Mossad/Zionists (or whoever the bad guy de jour is in far left CT land) destablising an otherwise peaceful situation. How is it not obvious to you that your world is as black and white as you accuse other's of being?

The Syrian revolution is made up of many different groups, with many different motives. The situation will not be resolved with Assad remaining in power and dictating policy.

The fact is we only have one way of establishing a legitmate regime (of any number of different kinds) now a days, and thats through a free and fair elections. Again, that will not happen with Assad at the helm.

It matters not at all if some of the people fighting on the rebel side are as bad as those they are fighting in your eyes, the method by which Syria begins to return to normalcy remains the same. And its not through the government killing all those who want it gone.

SamHarris

Suff wrote: »

Sadly, when an opinion is being put on the table people immediately jump to the conclusion that its pro-assad.

So what's happening in Syria? I have lived and witnessed 11 months of this 'revolution' and regardless of how the internal events are progressing in Syria, we all know how horrible they're getting, some cannot tolerate that there's a plot being cooked from the outside. The current forces at fighting in Syria are just as bad, but why does our opinion
have to be limited to either a pro vs opposition? Its not as black and white as you think it is, and for example when we talk about Al jazeera people are quick to mention Al douina and all the other pro regime media channels. They're both as bad and corrupt. If we truly care about the future of Syria we need to deny both of these factions our support and voice. Again, its not a pro vs against regime discussion, and it upsetting that every time such a topic is brought up people think that it's to defend the actions of the regime. Its not, the issue is much, much bigger. Why do you think USA, France, UK, Russia, China and all the other countries are arguing about Syria? I see it as world war 3 being fought on my home country.
As for the support of the FSA, well my worry is that the situation is using the following approach: A house infested with ants! use a spider, then use a mouse then a cat, a dog, a wolf, a bear, a dinosaur!! and as we've seen its getting worst and worst. hence heading from one form of extremism/ Fascism to another.

Whats the solution? in my honest opinion we (Syrians) need to unit as a nation. Both sides of this conflict doesn't represent the Syrian people then why they're finding support within the Syrian society? We know what we want, but our problem is that that we're hypocrites - we want some one to lead but too afraid to follow.

I am sick and tired of anti-assad posts, we know he's part of the problem, and also part of the solution. This blaming game has gone old and stale. We need to move forward, adopt a REAL solution and not one that involves more blood.

If your position is against both sides and the methods they use thats entirely legitimate and I apologise if it came across in my post as though one must be supporting the rebels whole heartedly or be a crackpot CTer, that was not my meaning.

Rather I was railing against the total condemnation on the part of some people of the rebelion based on nothing more than Assad's regimes negative relations with the West. To some any number of human rights abuses can be forgiven if a given dictator has the 'right' foreign policy, to the point where resistance to them can instantly be waved of as foreign interferance and nothing more.

How do you see the situation moving forward, in a best case scenario? What would you like to see happen before you recognise a government with legitimacy?

WakeUp

SamHarris wrote: »

Yes politicians can believe what they will based on little to no actual evidence, just like normal people. Crazy, eh?



For blocking the UN resolution. If it were clandestine plans, why the hell would China and Russia know about it to block it?

This is very typical CT stuff. Take a clip, remove all context and replace it with one more aligned with the preconceived scenario. An excellent example of why rational debate on this topic should exclude CT crap.

Christ, CTers have actually taken a debate about the unrest in Syria and actually turned it into an American conspicary topic. Is there any particualr (negative) international event you people dont think was orcestrated by the CIA/ Zionists?

You do realise other people and parties have power and wills of their own, right?



No, they wont invade because there is no compeling reason to. Russia coudlnt stop the US invading a particular nation, especially in this region, if it needed to. Much less if it only WANTED to.




No, instead to you and others its the eeeevil West/CIA/Mossad/Zionists (or whoever the bad guy de jour is in far left CT land) destablising an otherwise peaceful situation. How is it not obvious to you that your world is as black and white as you accuse other's of being?

The Syrian revolution is made up of many different groups, with many different motives. The situation will not be resolved with Assad remaining in power and dictating policy.

The fact is we only have one way of establishing a legitmate regime (of any number of different kinds) now a days, and thats through a free and fair elections. Again, that will not happen with Assad at the helm.

It matters not at all if some of the people fighting on the rebel side are as bad as those they are fighting in your eyes, the method by which Syria begins to return to normalcy remains the same. And its not through the government killing all those who want it gone.

Hang on a second there now, before I address the rest of your rant/post point out exactly where I stated there was a "CT" with regard to Syria. While youre at it explain to me why the West championed by the US are so fixated on regime change in Syria as oppossed to internal political reforms and a cessation of the violence based on mutual communication and not zero sum politics. You and other posters like you are very quick to lambast other people for being single minded and having a one dimensional understanding of what is happening in Syria. Its hypocrisy of the highest standard as the same can be said for your argument and others like you.

Point out where Ive stated that its a CIA/Mossad/Zionist/ plot? Point it out or stop talking shoite please. "CT" land? really?? hmmm stop being such a condescending so and so because someone has a different point of view than you. "Far left" - prove my politics are "far left"?? youve made quite a statement lumping me in "CT" land. Now back it up.

WakeUp

plasmaguy wrote: »

There is no CT in Syria, CIA inspired or otherwise so stop peddling this nonsense. As for Ron Paul, give me a break, the guy is a bit of a joke at this stage, he'll say anything to get attention.

If the CIA wanted to seriously overthrow Assad, he'd already be overthrown at this stage. It took took them a few months to kill or capture Saddam and Gadaffi. If they want someone gone, he'll be gone in a few weeks or months.

It would start with arming the rebels with stinger missiles and proper sophisticated anti tank weapons. Also supplying them with heavy weapons.

If they wanted to get involved, they have a ready made force of thousands of FSA in Aleppo, who they could use to overthrow the regime. But those FSA are getting the sh*t kicked out of them by Assad tanks and aircraft meaning they'll be in retreat soon. So again little evidence the CIA is preventing that happening by providing better weapons, as opposed to the Ak 47s and RPGs they use.

The simpleness in this post is breathtaking though not surprising. Show me where Ive said there is a "CT" in Syria or stop ranting nonsense. Back your statement up, please.

plasmaguy

I too would be interested in seeing Suff's reply on how to move the situation further.

But again, saying Assad is part of the solution is like saying Hitler was part of the solution to stopping the Holocaust.

You cannot trust someone like Assad when he continues to try to kill all his opponents and that's not just armed rebels...from the start he has bombed and shelled innocent protestors on the street and sent in his snipers against innocent unarmed protesters. That is not to mention those who were arrested and hideously totured, all for calling for the downfall of the regime.

We need to be realistic about Assad. The history of every dictator that has ever been, unfortunately, is that you have to confront them head on and give them a taste of their own medicine until they are forced to stop.

Being nice to them doesn't work. Negotiating with them doesn't work. Saying they are part of the solution doesn't work.

Assad is the architypical dictator and just as evil. He has no intention of negotiating his exit and he knows he's strong enough to kill a lot of people and hope to hang on that way.

As for the UN and its peacemaking efforts, again the UN are just naive. Assad thinks the UN are a joke, the Americans think the UN are a joke, as do the Russians, Iranians and most other people.

plasmaguy

WakeUp wrote: »

Hang on a second there now, before I address the rest of your rant/post point out exactly where I stated there was a "CT" with regard to Syria. While youre at it explain to me why the West championed by the US are so fixated on regime change in Syria as oppossed to internal political reforms and a cessation of the violence based on mutual communication and not zero sum politics. You and other posters like you are very quick to lambast other people for being single minded and having a one dimensional understanding of what is happening in Syria. Its hypocrisy of the highest standard as the same can be said for your argument and others like you.

Point out where Ive stated that its a CIA/Mossad/Zionist/ plot? Point it out or stop talking shoite please. "CT" land? really?? hmmm stop being such a condescending so and so because someone has a different point of view than you. "Far left" - prove my politics are "far left"?? youve made quite a statement lumping me in "CT" land. Now back it up.

You think Assad should stay in power then? And please don't say you never said that.

The case for Assad leaving power is clear cut. You can call it regime change, or regime subsitution or whatever you want to call it.

I personally dispise people who get angry when the words "regime change" are mentioned but don't bat an eyelid when 20,000 people are murdered in cold blood.

Assad has never won a proper election and has held on to power by killing thousands of people. Yes of course he needs to leave office, no-one seriously disputes that.

WakeUp

plasmaguy wrote: »

I too would be interested in seeing Suff's reply on how to move the situation further.

But again, saying Assad is part of the solution is like saying Hitler was part of the solution to stopping the Holocaust.

You cannot trust someone like Assad when he continues to try to kill all his opponents and that's not just armed rebels...from the start he has bombed and shelled innocent protestors on the street and sent in his snipers against innocent unarmed protesters. That is not to mention those who were arrested and hideously totured, all for calling for the downfall of the regime.

We need to be realistic about Assad. The history of every dictator that has ever been, unfortunately, is that you have to confront them head on and give them a taste of their own medicine until they are forced to stop.

Being nice to them doesn't work. Negotiating with them doesn't work. Saying they are part of the solution doesn't work.

Assad is the architypical dictator and just as evil. He has no intention of negotiating his exit and he knows he's strong enough to kill a lot of people and hope to hang on that way.

As for the UN and its peacemaking efforts, again the UN are just naive. Assad thinks the UN are a joke, the Americans think the UN are a joke, as do the Russians, Iranians and most other people.

The West has made the situation in Syria worse. They have made it worse by insisting that Assad "must go" the "regime" must go..what do you expect Assad to do when faced with that ultimatum..fight harder or stop fighting?? That sort of thinking and foreign policy thinking is for simpletons. When a ruler has the backing of two major world powers, control of the military and intelligence apparatus, a monopoly on the political system and the will to resist do you think its a good idea to tell him he has to go or be forced to go? Of course not. Its not the way to approach nor handle the situation its simple and silly.

WakeUp

plasmaguy wrote: »

You think Assad should stay in power then? And please don't say you never said that.

The case for Assad leaving power is clear cut. You can call it regime change, or regime subsitution or whatever you want to call it.

I personally dispise people who get angry when the words "regime change" are mentioned but don't bat an eyelid when 20,000 people are murdered in cold blood.

Assad has never won a proper election and has held on to power by killing thousands of people. Yes of course he needs to leave office, no-one seriously disputes that.

Show me where I said I want Assad to stay in power? I dont care whethere you depise people for whatever reason. Zero sum politics is for simpletons. It leads to confrontation and killing. I have never stated my support for Assad, show me where I have?

plasmaguy

WakeUp wrote: »

The West has made the situation in Syria worse. They have made it worse by insisting that Assad "must go" the "regime" must go..what do you expect Assad to do when faced with that ultimatum..fight harder or stop fighting?? That sort of thinking and foreign policy thinking is for simpletons. When a ruler has the backing of two major world powers, control of the military and intelligence apparatus, a monopoly on the political system and the will to resist do you think its a good idea to tell him he has to go or be forced to go? Of course not. Its not the way to approach nor handle the situation its simple and silly.

They haven't made it worse.

What reforms are you talking about? The Syrian people have spoken loudly and clearly, far louder than the largely silent west.

There is only one reform the Syrian people want, democracy and the right to elect their leaders. Not the right to elect people to a sham rubber stamping parliament via a massively rigged election, that's not democracy.

The Syrian people have said from day one they want to elect their president, that's the only reform they want. And Assad's response to that reform request? Basically the same as Gadaffi, either I rule you or I kill you.

Everyone wants Assad gone. Most Syrians genuinely want him gone. Most people in the middle east want him gone.

No-one has called for regime change more than the Syrian people themselves.

Blaming the west for Assad's manical tendencies is disingenious in the extreme.

And the West has called for Assad to be called to account which is right. Should the west just turn a blind eye and ignore what is going on?

Again you cannot blame the West for what Assad is doing. He's clearly had suppressed mass murdering tendencies that have come out on the last year or two.

plasmaguy

WakeUp wrote: »

Show me where I said I want Assad to stay in power? I dont care whethere you depise people for whatever reason. Zero sum politics is for simpletons. It leads to confrontation and killing. I have never stated my support for Assad, show me where I have?

You do understand that there is only one way to deal with mass murdering dictators. There's a reason people study history, it's because it repeats itself. Every mass murdering dictator is the same. They stop killing via a number of ways. Either they run out of people to kill or they themselves are forced from power. Example Hitler, Pol Pot, the Rwandan genocidaires and countless others.

So again either Assad is either going to run out of people to kill or he is going to be forced from power. Take your pick.

Assad is also incredibly vindictive. Remember when the UN monitors first went in. Assad had many of those Syrians who spoke to them rounded up and shot.

If all the FSA lay down their arms tomorrow, you seriously think Assad would forgive them? Not while he is still in power.

While Assad is in power, the killing continues, it really is that simple.

As for Russia, Iran and China, they haven't a moral leg to stand on, they have no credibility on this issue. Strange how some people look to Russia for a solution or guidance, this after they supplied Assad with all those weapons and told him to keep killing.

WakeUp

plasmaguy wrote: »

They haven't made it worse.

What reforms are you talking about? The Syrian people have spoken loudly and clearly, far louder than the largely silent west.

There is only one reform the Syrian people want, democracy and the right to elect their leaders. Not the right to elect people to a sham rubber stamping parliament via a massively rigged election, that's not democracy.

The Syrian people have said from day one they want to elect their president, that's the only reform they want. And Assad's response to that reform request? Basically the same as Gadaffi, either I rule you or I kill you.

Everyone wants Assad gone. Most Syrians genuinely want him gone. Most people in the middle east want him gone.

No-one has called for regime change more than the Syrian people themselves.

Blaming the west for Assad's manical tendencies is disingenious in the extreme.

And the West has called for Assad to be called to account which is right. Should the west just turn a blind eye and ignore what is going on?

Again you cannot blame the West for what Assad is doing. He's clearly had suppressed mass murdering tendencies that have come out on the last year or two.

You still dont get it do you? In an ideal utopia bloodthirsty dictators dont exist but alas the world is not like that, they do exist. They exist in many instances because they have the backing of the major world powers for their own strategic selfish reasons - geopolitics and foreign policy does not evolve out of a concern for a people or democracy. If you cant get your head around that basic concept well then you dont understand how the world works and maybe political discussion isnt for you. The West has most certainly made the situation worse as a result of their simpleton zero sum politics approach. They have backed him into a corner and left him with one option - to come out fighting and cracking down even harder what did they expect? Clearly it was the wrong approach I mean its obvious it doesnt need stating.

teddy_irish

Please do not consider Syria as an isolated case. It's a part from the big picture of the Middle East. I was always wondering since the beginning of the conflict 17 months ago why the West is so determined of kicking out Assads government. Because Syria has no debt? Or maybe because of the total free medical care, free school system and free university education? Or independent pharmaceutical industry? Why messing up with the souvereignty of a country- in this case Syria? Speaking that way - what about the Saudi Arabia or Qatar? They even don't have a governments or a presidency or a parliaments - no Constitutions at all! But Syria should be the problem - BECAUSE WE SAID SO! It's always like that. There is a new Constitution in Syria - you can have a look at it. Many ethnic groups has been living together in peace until last year events. Assad declared his intention for transparent elections, there was a referendum about the Constitution, he was elected with majority on a free elections. Syrian people used to have a decent economy - 90% independent from the import prior to the so called last year revolution. As the way to Iran goes through Syria - let sacrifice them. Who cares about the christians who will die after Assad's eventually detronation. So think about the picture as a small detail of the puzzle of the Middle East. By the way - syrian women have the free choice to dress themselve as the west women do. But after Assad who I really doubt will go because other people think he must, you will see only women without faces.

Peace

plasmaguy

WakeUp wrote: »

You still dont get it do you? In an ideal utopia bloodthirsty dictators dont exist but alas the world is not like that, they do exist. They exist in many instances because they have the backing of the major world powers for their own strategic selfish reasons - geopolitics and foreign policy does not evolve out of a concern for a people or democracy. If you cant get your head around that basic concept well then you dont understand how the world works and maybe political discussion isnt for you. The West has most certainly made the situation worse as a result of their simpleton zero sum politics approach. They have backed him into a corner and left him with one option - to come out fighting and cracking down even harder what did they expect? Clearly it was the wrong approach I mean its obvious it doesnt need stating.

Well realisitically, Assad is not going to step down, why should he..he's got tanks, attack helicoptors, the intelligence services, mig fighters. Even if he wanted to step down he wouldn't be allowed step down by his powerful Alwite backers and a few Sunni backers too who have made their fortunes via the regime. Most of the richest people in Syria made their fortunes through shady deals with the Assad regime. They all know if Assad steps down, the retribution against them would come fast and harshly. So then Assad remains in power for another couple of decades, still killing as he did before the Arab Spring, arresting, torturing and so on for decades. Meanwhile the reforms are a rubber stamping pro Assad parliament with rigged elections, intelligence services, arrests and detentions, people disappeared for no reason, etc. So back to square one. How exactly would that be better?
As it stands, his power is being slowly eroded and it may takes years to finish him off but still worth it none the less.

plasmaguy

teddy_irish wrote: »

Please do not consider Syria as an isolated case. It's a part from the big picture of the Middle East. I was always wondering since the beginning of the conflict 17 months ago why the West is so determined of kicking out Assads government. Because Syria has no debt? Or maybe because of the total free medical care, free school system and free university education? Or independent pharmaceutical industry? Why messing up with the souvereignty of a country- in this case Syria? Speaking that way - what about the Saudi Arabia or Qatar? They even don't have a governments or a presidency or a parliaments - no Constitutions at all! But Syria should be the problem - BECAUSE WE SAID SO! It's always like that. There is a new Constitution in Syria - you can have a look at it. Many ethnic groups has been living together in peace until last year events. Assad declared his intention for transparent elections, there was a referendum about the Constitution, he was elected with majority on a free elections. Syrian people used to have a decent economy - 90% independent from the import prior to the so called last year revolution. As the way to Iran goes through Syria - let sacrifice them. Who cares about the christians who will die after Assad's eventually detronation. So think about the picture as a small detail of the puzzle of the Middle East. By the way - syrian women have the free choice to dress themselve as the west women do. But after Assad who I really doubt will go because other people think he must, you will see only women without faces.

Peace

I know I will get a warning for this or even a ban but in this case its worth it.

I really wish anyone who says the Arab Spring is all a CIA conspiracy would get an infraction or something because it seriously undermines the quality of discussion on here and it usually looks like an attempt to derail a thread down some CT route. It's a bit annoying.

teddy_irish

Who says the Arab Spring is all a CIA conspiracy? Baned for what? For exchanging opinions in a forum like this? Different point of view does not necessary lowering the quality of the debate...

troposphere

teddy_irish wrote: »

As the way to Iran goes through Syria - let sacrifice them. Who cares about the christians who will die after Assad's eventually detronation. So think about the picture as a small detail of the puzzle of the Middle East. By the way - syrian women have the free choice to dress themselve as the west women do. But after Assad who I really doubt will go because other people think he must, you will see only women without faces.

Peace

Do you think the US should stay in Afghanistan to protect the rights of women, access to education for young girls, minorities from being overrun by Taliban?

SamHarris

WakeUp wrote: »

Hang on a second there now, before I address the rest of your rant/post point out exactly where I stated there was a "CT" with regard to Syria. While youre at it explain to me why the West championed by the US are so fixated on regime change in Syria as oppossed to internal political reforms and a cessation of the violence based on mutual communication and not zero sum politics. You and other posters like you are very quick to lambast other people for being single minded and having a one dimensional understanding of what is happening in Syria. Its hypocrisy of the highest standard as the same can be said for your argument and others like you.

Point out where Ive stated that its a CIA/Mossad/Zionist/ plot? Point it out or stop talking shoite please. "CT" land? really?? hmmm stop being such a condescending so and so because someone has a different point of view than you. "Far left" - prove my politics are "far left"?? youve made quite a statement lumping me in "CT" land. Now back it up.

Wow. I quoted the bloody thing in my post. I detailed the CT, or how I understand it, in the post to - the CIA are arming/ responsible for the destablisation. They are now arming the rebels. Thats a CT believe it or not. It continues in that vein with remarks like the unnamed "plans" stopped by Russia and China, when the link provided was clearly a reaction to the SC vote.


I respect any point of view that has a strong basis in reality, one that is not dedicated mearly to axe grinding against a particular "bad guy". All evidence shows the US is at most peripheral to the situation, and yet ideology dictates that the Syrian conflict be framed in terms of a nefarious US policy in your estimation. Again, not a CT?

If your not far left, apologies. Its just the vast majority of those that frame their position on any given situation in opposition to The West are invariably of that political persuasion. CTs and other twists are used commonly so that any situation can then fit the paradigm. Just check out the CT forum for many examples.

SamHarris

teddy_irish wrote: »

Please do not consider Syria as an isolated case. It's a part from the big picture of the Middle East. I was always wondering since the beginning of the conflict 17 months ago why the West is so determined of kicking out Assads government. Because Syria has no debt? Or maybe because of the total free medical care, free school system and free university education? Or independent pharmaceutical industry? Why messing up with the souvereignty of a country- in this case Syria? Speaking that way - what about the Saudi Arabia or Qatar? They even don't have a governments or a presidency or a parliaments - no Constitutions at all! But Syria should be the problem - BECAUSE WE SAID SO! It's always like that. There is a new Constitution in Syria - you can have a look at it. Many ethnic groups has been living together in peace until last year events. Assad declared his intention for transparent elections, there was a referendum about the Constitution, he was elected with majority on a free elections. Syrian people used to have a decent economy - 90% independent from the import prior to the so called last year revolution. As the way to Iran goes through Syria - let sacrifice them. Who cares about the christians who will die after Assad's eventually detronation. So think about the picture as a small detail of the puzzle of the Middle East. By the way - syrian women have the free choice to dress themselve as the west women do. But after Assad who I really doubt will go because other people think he must, you will see only women without faces.

Peace

Not in Saudi Arabia and Qatar because as yet they are not killing hundreds of their civilians every day.

And yes, alot of the dictators did alot to protect civil liberties, equality and minorities. Are you saying that this means the West should do what it can to help stamp out the rebelion? Or that the rebelion therefore does not have legitimacy? Serious question, I dont really understand your point.

teddy_irish

SamHarris wrote: »

Not in Saudi Arabia and Qatar because as yet they are not killing hundreds of their civilians every day.

And yes, alot of the dictators did alot to protect civil liberties, equality and minorities. Are you saying that this means the West should do what it can to help stamp out the rebelion? Or that the rebelion therefore does not have legitimacy? Serious question, I dont really understand your point.

aHA... they are not killing yet
How do you know Assad is killing his own people? One big part of the media say so. Why don't you try to read the Russian news for example or any independent source. Everywhere you will find different news. You have been told that Assad is killing the women and the children and you are ready to buy it without a questions? Do I have to accept as an act of dignity the bomb blast which killed the members of Assad's government but to recognize the bombing in Burgas - Bulgaria(my country) which killed Israelis tourists and one Bulgarian as a terroristic act? No - both of them they are terroristic acts What about the unspoken news - the hanged child and the killed family(and many other families) in Aleppo 2 days ago? Or maybe the people in Sidney - Australia were too stupid to go on a meeting to support official Syria and Assad's government? Maybe 90% of the people know about Syria since the beginning of the civil war. They know something like Syria is a bad country by default. Let's go then to change the Syrian government with another one which we think will be ok for the people there too. Ha! back on your question - we the people from the west cannot understand the people from the middle east. They have another way of thinking and the structure of their society is not the same or even a little bit similar to ours. According to the international law doing whatever in favor to the rebellions is a bracing the sovereignty of another country. Or for us - the West this is allowed? This process is internal and should be solved by the government, not by selling guns to suspicious bunch of criminal wahhabis from all over the east. You can read in the Russian press about the deep regrets regarding to the Libya crisis last year. That is why now Russia and China will not allow the same to happen in Syria. Just because Syria is not Libya, but maybe was considered same as Libya by the West. Its sad to see how such a beautiful country - 4000 years old civilization is going ruined because of wrong way of thinking. Assad was not killing his own people so I cannot understand your example with SA and Qatar. Syria is 23 million people and believe me if they don't like Assad they would not ask the west should he rules or not. They are supporting their president and helping the army in Aleppo fighting together with the soldiers against the terrorists. By the way I received a warning from the moderator probably because of my point of view, which seems like a censorship to me. I was trying to show my human point of view, not political or tactical or whatsoever. I'm giving up - I will not post my opinions anymore.

About the real crimes of the terrorists in Syria you can have a look here: http://friendsofsyria.wordpress.com/ or http://whatreallyhappened.com/category/syria or many more -just search the net - it's still for free

Best regards

Please excuse me for my bad English

troposphere

teddy_irish wrote: »

Why don't you try to read the Russian news for example or any independent source.

Would you read the US news to get an independent source on Saudi Arabia or Israel?

SamHarris

troposphere wrote: »

Would you read the US news to get an independent source on Saudi Arabia or Israel?

A news company in Western states picks and portrays news according to its politics, not the politics of a ruling "regime". American news scources run the gambit from far right to hippy esque. The idea that a scource can instantly be dismissed because of its scource country is laughable, unless of course the countries governemnt has editorial control of said outlet - as is the case in many non Western countries.

SamHarris

teddy_irish wrote: »

aHA... they are not killing yet /QUOTE]

Sure, and thats why they have not been criticised or sanctioned to the same extent. Yet. Pre emptivly assuming some conspiracy to protect them from something that has not happened yet is pure speculation.

teddy_irish wrote: »

How do you know Assad is killing his own people? One big part of the media say so. Why don't you try to read the Russian news for example or any independent source. Everywhere you will find different news. You have been told that Assad is killing the women and the children and you are ready to buy it without a questions? Do I have to accept as an act of dignity the bomb blast which killed the members of Assad's government but to recognize the bombing in Burgas - Bulgaria(my country) which killed Israelis tourists and one Bulgarian as a terroristic act? No - both of them they are terroristic acts What about the unspoken news - the hanged child and the killed family(and many other families) in Aleppo 2 days ago? Or maybe the people in Sidney - Australia were too stupid to go on a meeting to support official Syria and Assad's government? Maybe 90% of the people know about Syria since the beginning of the civil war. They know something like Syria is a bad country by default. Let's go then to change the Syrian government with another one which we think will be ok for the people there too.

I have no doubt atrocities are commited by both sides. The problem then becomes who is stopping independant organistations and scources verifying the situation on the ground? Right now, much of that resisitance comes from the government.

Sure, Assad could be doing nothing wroong and it could all be a conspiracy. Then he should and would be inviting as many different people and scources to check for themselves, and the voices supporting his actions would be inevitably stronger. They do not wish to do this because they are aware that regardless of what is found about the rebels, there is no doubt there has been more than enough actions carried out by the government forces to delegitimise themselves completly.

teddy_irish wrote: »

Ha! back on your question - we the people from the west cannot understand the people from the middle east. They have another way of thinking and the structure of their society is not the same or even a little bit similar to ours. According to the international law doing whatever in favor to the rebellions is a bracing the sovereignty of another country. Or for us - the West this is allowed? This process is internal and should be solved by the government, not by selling guns to suspicious bunch of criminal wahhabis from all over the east. You can read in the Russian press about the deep regrets regarding to the Libya crisis last year. That is why now Russia and China will not allow the same to happen in Syria. Just because Syria is not Libya, but maybe was considered same as Libya by the West. Its sad to see how such a beautiful country - 4000 years old civilization is going ruined because of wrong way of thinking. Assad was not killing his own people so I cannot understand your example with SA and Qatar. Syria is 23 million people and believe me if they don't like Assad they would not ask the west should he rules or not. They are supporting their president and helping the army in Aleppo fighting together with the soldiers against the terrorists. By the way I received a warning from the moderator probably because of my point of view, which seems like a censorship to me. I was trying to show my human point of view, not political or tactical or whatsoever. I'm giving up - I will not post my opinions anymore.

I disagree, I do not thinnk it is impossible for Western observers to have any grasp of the situation and politics taking place in Syria.

China and Russia are not seeking to protect anything except their own interests. This is true to a greater or lesser extent for every government, everywhere.

Internal soverigneity for a country is not limitless, nor should it be. To frame respect for a countries internal affairs as a reason for taking a political position on a given situation is fair enough, but conflating that with concern for the people of a given country is just disengenous. They are not the same thing, nor do they even have to overlap.

teddy_irish wrote: »

About the real crimes of the terrorists in Syria you can have a look here: http://friendsofsyria.wordpress.com/ or http://whatreallyhappened.com/category/syria or many more -just search the net - it's still for free

To be so entirelly skeptical of scources that disagree with your perception, but then swallow whole the statements of those which better align with your political prejudices reeks of cognitave dissonance and dishonesty. Its also very common for those who rail against the "mainstream" media, whatever that is.

teddy_irish wrote: »

Best regards

Please excuse me for my bad English

You to.

Your English wasnt bad at all!

Eggy Baby!

troposphere wrote: »

Would you read the US news to get an independent source on Saudi Arabia or Israel?

Well it doesn't matter, as long as that source is independent of the US government.

WakeUp

SamHarris wrote: »

Wow. I quoted the bloody thing in my post. I detailed the CT, or how I understand it, in the post to - the CIA are arming/ responsible for the destablisation. They are now arming the rebels. Thats a CT believe it or not. It continues in that vein with remarks like the unnamed "plans" stopped by Russia and China, when the link provided was clearly a reaction to the SC vote.


I respect any point of view that has a strong basis in reality, one that is not dedicated mearly to axe grinding against a particular "bad guy". All evidence shows the US is at most peripheral to the situation, and yet ideology dictates that the Syrian conflict be framed in terms of a nefarious US policy in your estimation. Again, not a CT?

If your not far left, apologies. Its just the vast majority of those that frame their position on any given situation in opposition to The West are invariably of that political persuasion. CTs and other twists are used commonly so that any situation can then fit the paradigm. Just check out the CT forum for many examples.

Sam, we have spoken before on other threads and Ive found you to be a reasonable person even if we disagree but can you please drop the "CT" angle to your argument it doesnt do anything for it. Personally I never claimed that the CIA are responsible for the destabilisation of Syria. I posted a link of a US politician claiming that the US are directly and indirectly providing military assistance to the "rebels".

Who do you believe was the driving force behind the UNSC resolutions directed against Syria? It wasnt the Russians nor was it the Chinese perhaps the US? With hot head Hillary making such feverish declarations I think its a safe bet to assume that behind the scenes and indeed in the public eye the US are the driving force. Clinton said that "the Russians and Chinese need to pay a price for blocking progress" which is political speak as Im sure you can figure out yourself, you strike me as an intelligent person, "the Russians and Chinese need to pay a price for blocking our plan".

Would the UK Guardian be based in reality enough for you. Or do they belong in CT land too?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/aug/02/obama-order-supporting-syria-rebels

The US at this stage may be stopping short of arming the rebels outright but if we are to believe reports of which there are many then the CIA are infact involved to some degree in Syria. Im a little confused to be honest are you saying that Im personally claiming that what is happening in Syria is a nefarious US plot or policy? I have never claimed that in any of my posts. If youre going to stand behind that statement you need to show where Ive said that. If I ask you to prove that I "have an axe" to grind do you think you could? I highly doubt it Im not sure how you can make such a statement.

You dont have to apologise but thanks for doing so. My politics are neither left middle or right and certainly not far left. I think the majority of ideologies have good points and bad points, apart from those far right racist parties and others of that ilk who are horrible that is, but I have no affiliation to any one on its own. Can you please stop labeling me as something, with no evidence that is based on assumption and way off the mark would be much appreciated.

Mervyn Crawford

Washington’s proxy in Syria: Al Qaeda

http://wsws.org/articles/2012/aug2012/pers-a09.shtml

teddy_irish

In the video we see the FSA funded by William Hague and Hillary Clinton, killing post office employees, throwing their bodies off the roof of the building.

Government employees are a target of the Terrorists, as are doctors, soldiers and anyone else loyal to the government. The general public can pretend they are not supporters to save their lives, but government employees are sitting ducks for these butchers.

I hope Britain and the USA are pleased at what your money is being spent on by your governments. The blood is on the hands of Hillary Clinton and William Hague for these murders by their army.

lagente

The sectarian (religious and tribal) divide is sought to be created and manipulated more-so by elements of both sides, and this needs to be stemmed.
For instance many rebels with ties to Saudi-Qatar will try to do so, and on the other side any Iranian/hizbollah involvment you can bet is sectarian. I would bet all the Iraqi elements are sectarian, whether pro/anti regime.
A plan is needed for the people in the area, as Suff points out, stressing unity and such. If all parties sat down and established some kind of plan for the area, *non-sectarian*, that would be for the best.
That said, one thing that must be understood and expected is that even in the brightest case/truce there is going to be sporadic aggression-attrition from small fractions of both sides. Brutal bastards and idiots on both sides.

It would be good to need to hear more suggestions from Obama, less from his cabinet and McCain, etc.

plasmaguy

teddy_irish wrote: »

In the video we see the FSA funded by William Hague and Hillary Clinton, killing post office employees, throwing their bodies off the roof of the building.

I'm pretty sure the context here was these bodies were intelligence officers from the intelligence building in Aleppo. Maybe you'd care to tell us where the location was and what city and I'm sure it would back up what I am saying.

These were no innocent civilian workers going about their business. These were mass murdering, mass torturing thugs whose deaths will be welcomed by the vast majority of Syrians who they have tormented for decades.

Just trying to give some context and in some regards you can understand the Syrian rebels anger since many of their colleagues were cruelly tortured and murdered at the hands of the intelligence service.

Rough justice maybe, but Assad an his thugs surely know that if you live by the sword, you die by the sword and there's no point citing the Geneva convention when you haven't bothered to sign up to it yourself.

The FSA are not perfect but they are a million times better than Assad who has already killed over 15000 innocent civilians. Most of those the FSA killed were certainly not innocent and Syria is a much better place without them.

plasmaguy

Here's one source to back up my assertion.

http://yallasouriya.wordpress.com/2012/08/12/basma-july-19-was-final-battle-to-liberate/

Always useful to provide context when posting videos or stories.

WakeUp

**

WakeUp

plasmaguy wrote: »

Well realisitically, Assad is not going to step down, why should he..he's got tanks, attack helicoptors, the intelligence services, mig fighters. Even if he wanted to step down he wouldn't be allowed step down by his powerful Alwite backers and a few Sunni backers too who have made their fortunes via the regime. Most of the richest people in Syria made their fortunes through shady deals with the Assad regime. They all know if Assad steps down, the retribution against them would come fast and harshly. So then Assad remains in power for another couple of decades, still killing as he did before the Arab Spring, arresting, torturing and so on for decades. Meanwhile the reforms are a rubber stamping pro Assad parliament with rigged elections, intelligence services, arrests and detentions, people disappeared for no reason, etc. So back to square one. How exactly would that be better?
As it stands, his power is being slowly eroded and it may takes years to finish him off but still worth it none the less.

Its beyond clear that Assad isnt going to step down as a result of gunboat diplomacy. This has been evident for the past year or more. The question isnt which is the lesser of the evils - Assad dominating Syrian political life his way or a sectarian civil war claiming countless lives on both sides which is what we have now. How you can perceive a long drawn out civil war that might take years to finish and cost countless more lives that have already been lost, result in an escalated regional conflict and maybe even mass genocide against the losing minorities should Assad be ousted really is a mystery to me. How you can predict that life will be better in Syria with Assad gone - which I think you do - is again a mystery to me.

The question in Syria is now one of bringing the level of violence we currently have to an end and how that can be achieved realistically. A cease fire that halts the civil war is what should be the target to begin with Involving all the actors of the war & nations of that region with an interest and asking them to contribute to a solution including Assad. Including Assad and getting the Russians onside along with engaging the Iranians and Turks is the key to bringing about an end to the war. Putting a gun to Assads head and supporting his opponents is only going to make the situation worse for all concerned. Talking with all parties involved is the way forward. Until the West change strategy and stop demanding regime change things will remain on the same course as they are now. Syria is not Libya incase the West and its politicians havent figured that out yet.

teddy_irish

plasmaguy wrote: »

I'm pretty sure the context here was these bodies were intelligence officers from the intelligence building in Aleppo. Maybe you'd care to tell us where the location was and what city and I'm sure it would back up what I am saying.

These were no innocent civilian workers going about their business. These were mass murdering, mass torturing thugs whose deaths will be welcomed by the vast majority of Syrians who they have tormented for decades.

Just trying to give some context and in some regards you can understand the Syrian rebels anger since many of their colleagues were cruelly tortured and murdered at the hands of the intelligence service.

Rough justice maybe, but Assad an his thugs surely know that if you live by the sword, you die by the sword and there's no point citing the Geneva convention when you haven't bothered to sign up to it yourself.

The FSA are not perfect but they are a million times better than Assad who has already killed over 15000 innocent civilians. Most of those the FSA killed were certainly not innocent and Syria is a much better place without them.

Syrian atrocity: Bodies of postal workers thrown from roof (GRAPHIC VIDEO)

Source: rt.com

A horrific amateur video appeared on YouTube, apparently showing an atrocity against public service workers in Syria. The footage displays a crowd of people callously throwing the bodies of slain postal workers from a post office rooftop.
The video, the source of which could not be independently verified, shows several dozen people having surrounded the staircase of the building, some of them chanting “Allahu Akbar!” They watch corpses being thrown out and rolled down the steps.
Also, several people have got to the roof and are throwing down the apparently dead bodies of post servants.
As they hit the ground, the crowd rushes in to catch the appalling images on their mobile phones.
The video caused online outrage and heated debates on Twitter as to who the people committing the atrocity might be. The majority allege they are Free Syrian Army supporters who intentionally target civil servants backing the regime.
RT’s correspondent on the ground Oksana Boyko reports that around one-and-a-half million of the country's civil employees have now become targets. Doctors, teachers and municipal workers risk kidnapping or assassination for simply doing their jobs.
“Documents confirm Syria's armed opposition has a hit list with scientists, engineers, doctors and civil servants on it,” Ammar Safi, a plastic surgeon from Damascus, told RT.
His brother, Faris Safi was one of Syria's most experienced civil pilots. US-educated, he logged more than 20,000 hours around the globe. He was coming home from the airport when gunmen attacked his car.
Earlier in August another amateur video blew up the global network.
It showed an apparent mass execution of Assad supporters in Aleppo at the hands of rebels from the Free Syrian Army. Several bloodied men were forced to kneel by a wall amidst a throng of excited, machine gun-touting men.
Also in August, a militant Islamist group claimed responsibility for the execution of Syrian state TV host Mohammed al-Saeed. Al-Saeed was kidnapped on July 19 of this year. The Al-Nusra Front, a little-known Islamist militant group, posted a statement August 4 on an Al-Qaeda-affiliated internet forum:
"The heroes of western Ghouta [in Damascus province] imprisoned the shabih [pro-regime militia] presenter on July 19…He was then killed after he had been interrogated," AFP cited their statement.
Pro-regime journalists and TV stations are still subject to rebel attacks.
Syrian state news agency SANA says one of its reporters, Ali Abbas, was killed at his residence in Damascus on Saturday. The report blamed an armed terrorist group but gave no further details.
Another journalist was killed in a bomb attack while covering a story in al-Tal, a suburb in northern Damascus.
On August 6, a bomb was detonated at a state-run television and radio building in the capital of Damascus, leaving three people injured.
Seven journalists and workers were killed in June when an armed group attacked the headquarters of Syria’s al-Ikhbaryia TV.
UK-based journalist and broadcaster Neil Clark says the violence carried out by rebels turns ordinary Syrians away from the opposition. If previously rebels were believed to have had all the support, “it is the other way around now.”
“We had people who supported Assad at the beginning. I mean a lot of people not sure which way to go. They actually are being turned off by the atrocities you outlined. And I would say that possibly the support for President Assad is stronger now than back in March, 2011,”Clark told RT.
The reports of the atrocity against public service workers come as Washington and Ankara have discussed introducing a “no-fly zone” over Syria to help the rebels, and have set up a joint group “to facilitate regime change.”
But the fact that the rebels are calling for foreign intervention only stresses the desperate situation they find themselves in, believes Dr. Ali Mohamad, editor-in-chief of the Syria Tribune.
“Every time they call for foreign intervention they are just reassuring everybody that they cannot do anything on the ground,” he told RT. “They lost in Damascus. They are losing Aleppo as we speak.”
“If they claim they have popular support as they have been saying for 17 months why do they need foreign intervention?”

teddy_irish

Orwellian Ramifications Begin to Unfold in Syria

plasmaguy

teddy_irish wrote: »

Syrian atrocity: Bodies of postal workers thrown from roof (GRAPHIC VIDEO)

Source: rt.com

A horrific amateur video appeared on YouTube, apparently showing an atrocity against public service workers in Syria. The footage displays a crowd of people callously throwing the bodies of slain postal workers from a post office rooftop.
The video, the source of which could not be independently verified, shows several dozen people having surrounded the staircase of the building, some of them chanting “Allahu Akbar!” They watch corpses being thrown out and rolled down the steps.
Also, several people have got to the roof and are throwing down the apparently dead bodies of post servants.
As they hit the ground, the crowd rushes in to catch the appalling images on their mobile phones.
The video caused online outrage and heated debates on Twitter as to who the people committing the atrocity might be. The majority allege they are Free Syrian Army supporters who intentionally target civil servants backing the regime.
RT’s correspondent on the ground Oksana Boyko reports that around one-and-a-half million of the country's civil employees have now become targets. Doctors, teachers and municipal workers risk kidnapping or assassination for simply doing their jobs.
“Documents confirm Syria's armed opposition has a hit list with scientists, engineers, doctors and civil servants on it,” Ammar Safi, a plastic surgeon from Damascus, told RT.
His brother, Faris Safi was one of Syria's most experienced civil pilots. US-educated, he logged more than 20,000 hours around the globe. He was coming home from the airport when gunmen attacked his car.
Earlier in August another amateur video blew up the global network.
It showed an apparent mass execution of Assad supporters in Aleppo at the hands of rebels from the Free Syrian Army. Several bloodied men were forced to kneel by a wall amidst a throng of excited, machine gun-touting men.
Also in August, a militant Islamist group claimed responsibility for the execution of Syrian state TV host Mohammed al-Saeed. Al-Saeed was kidnapped on July 19 of this year. The Al-Nusra Front, a little-known Islamist militant group, posted a statement August 4 on an Al-Qaeda-affiliated internet forum:
"The heroes of western Ghouta [in Damascus province] imprisoned the shabih [pro-regime militia] presenter on July 19…He was then killed after he had been interrogated," AFP cited their statement.
Pro-regime journalists and TV stations are still subject to rebel attacks.
Syrian state news agency SANA says one of its reporters, Ali Abbas, was killed at his residence in Damascus on Saturday. The report blamed an armed terrorist group but gave no further details.
Another journalist was killed in a bomb attack while covering a story in al-Tal, a suburb in northern Damascus.
On August 6, a bomb was detonated at a state-run television and radio building in the capital of Damascus, leaving three people injured.
Seven journalists and workers were killed in June when an armed group attacked the headquarters of Syria’s al-Ikhbaryia TV.
UK-based journalist and broadcaster Neil Clark says the violence carried out by rebels turns ordinary Syrians away from the opposition. If previously rebels were believed to have had all the support, “it is the other way around now.”
“We had people who supported Assad at the beginning. I mean a lot of people not sure which way to go. They actually are being turned off by the atrocities you outlined. And I would say that possibly the support for President Assad is stronger now than back in March, 2011,”Clark told RT.
The reports of the atrocity against public service workers come as Washington and Ankara have discussed introducing a “no-fly zone” over Syria to help the rebels, and have set up a joint group “to facilitate regime change.”
But the fact that the rebels are calling for foreign intervention only stresses the desperate situation they find themselves in, believes Dr. Ali Mohamad, editor-in-chief of the Syria Tribune.
“Every time they call for foreign intervention they are just reassuring everybody that they cannot do anything on the ground,” he told RT. “They lost in Damascus. They are losing Aleppo as we speak.”
“If they claim they have popular support as they have been saying for 17 months why do they need foreign intervention?”

They weren't postal workers and RT have got it wrong as have you.

The post office building is also used by the intelligence services in Aleppo.

They were snipers. They were surrounded, refused to give up and shot seven rebels during negotiations. Then they were shot themselves and understandably the rebels. In the heat of the moment they were thrown from the building, but later buried according to muslim custom which is more than can be said for most victims of Assad.

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/world_now/2012/08/syria-rebels-video-bodies-thrown-off-roof.html

So that blows your post offfice story out of the water pretty much. When will you learn that RT is not a dependable source of news?

Now let's see you condemn the daily massacre of 100's of civilians by the Assad regime. I've a feeling you won't. You get upset about the fate of dead snipers, but couldn't care less about the fate of thousands of massacred Syrian civilians. Although that seems to be a typical attitude taken by most people in the west to the syrian conflict.

plasmaguy

WakeUp wrote: »

Its beyond clear that Assad isnt going to step down as a result of gunboat diplomacy. This has been evident for the past year or more. The question isnt which is the lesser of the evils - Assad dominating Syrian political life his way or a sectarian civil war claiming countless lives on both sides which is what we have now. How you can perceive a long drawn out civil war that might take years to finish and cost countless more lives that have already been lost, result in an escalated regional conflict and maybe even mass genocide against the losing minorities should Assad be ousted really is a mystery to me. How you can predict that life will be better in Syria with Assad gone - which I think you do - is again a mystery to me.

The question in Syria is now one of bringing the level of violence we currently have to an end and how that can be achieved realistically. A cease fire that halts the civil war is what should be the target to begin with Involving all the actors of the war & nations of that region with an interest and asking them to contribute to a solution including Assad. Including Assad and getting the Russians onside along with engaging the Iranians and Turks is the key to bringing about an end to the war. Putting a gun to Assads head and supporting his opponents is only going to make the situation worse for all concerned. Talking with all parties involved is the way forward. Until the West change strategy and stop demanding regime change things will remain on the same course as they are now. Syria is not Libya incase the West and its politicians havent figured that out yet.

He was certainly not going to step down otherwise.

Assad created this conflict right from the start. He invented the notion of "armed terrorists" at the start so that he wouldn't have to go ahead with political reforms. It bought him some time. There were no armed terrorists for the first four months, only unarmed civilians protesting which he started to execute and assasinate.

Four months in the FSA were formed out of soldiers who bravely decided not to shoot protesters (when all the time many posters on here have condemned such soldiers and are outraged that they would defect and not instead shoot unarmed protesters like was asked of them). The FSA was set up to protect peaceful protests, becase Assad has always banned any form of protest.

Assad is a mass murdering thug who long ago lost his legitimacy. He started the violence and the FSA was set up to protect freedom of association and protest which have been non-existant in Syria under the Assad mafia for the last 40 years. And I use the Assad mafia description because they are a mafia organisation with no legitimacy. To believe they would walk away from politics and all the money and wealth they have accumulated and would continue to accumulate is nonsense. It was always going to be a case of forcing them out, or rather Assad behaving so brutally that he brought the wrath of large swathes of the population on himself which is exactly what happened.

He was never going to step down peacefully, arab spring or no arab spring, anyone who thinks he would have are fooling themselves. Yet we still have the same posters who keep saying he might have stepped down, etc. He never allowed protest or opponents to stand in elections, so how or why would he step down? He also is strongly backed by the Alwite community who are in charge of everything in Syria and have done very well under him and never in a million years would they let him step down peacefully.

Only through violence would Assad be forced from power, no other way.

plasmaguy

Some further eye witness accounts of the events in Aleppo.

https://twitter.com/marioMondas/status/235096780038094848/photo/1

Seems it was civilians and not FSA who threw the bodies from the roof.

Eggy Baby!

Seems it was civilians and not FSA who threw the bodies from the roof.

Or FSA in plain-clothes?

Suff

plasmaguy wrote: »

Seems it was civilians and not FSA who threw the bodies from the roof.

Your unlimited support/ defence to the FSA is unreal!!!

From day one, we were all saying that they have contributed to the violence and that they're not as 'nobel' as the media and 'some' people make them out to be. Anyway, the FSA doesn't have a uniform, other than plain clothes and guns. But the funny thing is when they get killed, the arms disappear they they get the title 'innocent civilians' that got slaughtered by the Official Syrian Army.

This 'FSA' farce has to end!

plasmaguy

Suff wrote: »

Your unlimited support/ defence to the FSA is unreal!!!

From day one, we were all saying that they have contributed to the violence and that they're not as 'nobel' as the media and 'some' people make them out to be. Anyway, the FSA doesn't have a uniform, other than plain clothes and guns. But the funny thing is when they get killed, the arms disappear they they get the title 'innocent civilians' that got slaughtered by the Official Syrian Army.

This 'FSA' farce has to end!

No-one said the FSA are perfect, but they at least for the most part adhere to the Geneva convention.

For someone allegedly from Syria your knowledge of the FSA and how they came about is limited in the extreme. In that regard I wonder is there any point even discussing this with someone so biased against the FSA and with such limited knowledge of how they came about.

They were formed by defectors who refused to shoot protesters. In Homs, Hama, Idlib and other locations, Assad was massacring unarmed civilians until the FSA made at least some attempt to stop this. Assad then resorted to long range shelling to complete the job.

Assad has no future in Syria, and anyone including you who says he is part of the solution, is farcically naive.

So please stop with the nonsense about Assad having a future as president of Syria or as part of negotiations.

Of the 15,000 civilians killed, Assad has directly killed 99.99% of them and the civilians killed by the FSA were not civilians but militia mass murdering thugs.

Thankfully the FSA are brave and are prepared to face the Assad thugs and tanks, unlike most of their detractors.

To say the FSA contributed to the violence is ridiculous. The Sunni community in Syria were given two options, shut up and be quiet and accept an unelected mass murdering president who was in the process of murdering all opposition in Syria even before the FSA was formed, or else fighting back to save themselves and their communities.

Blaming them for Assad shelling whole cities and towns is ridiculous but I doubt this will stop you in post after post from blaming the FSA for the violence in Syria.

plasmaguy

Eggy Baby! wrote: »

Or FSA in plain-clothes?

I'm just quoting eye witness testimony so don't attack the messenger.

Unless you were on the ground, to be honest you don't know what happened.

If you want to quote a direct eye witness go for it, but please not an annonymous eye witness "quoted" by SANA or RT.

If an eye witness says they were civilians I am prepared to accept that, just as we are often asked around here to accept the word of eye witnesses, whether we agree with them or not.

Eggy Baby!

I'm just quoting eye witness testimony so don't attack the messenger.

I'm just posing a relevant question. Sorry for bringing logical thought into the proceedings.

Of the 15,000 civilians killed, Assad has directly killed 99.99% of them and the civilians killed by the FSA were not civilians but militia mass murdering thugs.

Source?

plasmaguy

Eggy Baby! wrote: »

I'm just posing a relevant question. Sorry for bringing logical thought into the proceedings.



Source?

Regards the latter, can you please post one credible account of the FSA mass murdering civilians, ie men, women and children. SANA, RT and other non-credible sources don't count.

As for the first part, there is nothing logical about your statement, nothing at all. Like I said, I am going to accept first person eye witness accounts from someone actually on the ground in Syria as opposed to someone sitting behind a computer in Ireland, otherwise we could all make up stuff and claim it to be the truth.

I prefer first person sources myself and you definitely are not a first person source nor have you attempted to produce any first person sources, just idle unverified speculation as per usual.

Suff

plasmaguy wrote: »

No-one said the FSA are perfect, but they at least for the most part adhere to the Geneva convention.

A militia adhering to Geneva convention!!! are you serious?

For someone allegedly from Syria your knowledge of the FSA and how they came about is limited in the extreme. In that regard I wonder is there any point even discussing this with someone so biased against the FSA and with such limited knowledge of how they came about.

That statement alone proves you have limited view and knowledge of Syria. You have no clue and no idea what so ever about Syria and what is Syria. You make assumptions based on internet reports and media coverage and on top of that make bold statements on the behalf of the Syrian people! And you're only response is by doubting my nationality! I've just about had it with you!

They were formed by defectors who refused to shoot protesters. In Homs, Hama, Idlib and other locations, Assad was massacring unarmed civilians until the FSA made at least some attempt to stop this. Assad then resorted to long range shelling to complete the job.

The first casualty of war is the truth, and if you really believe what you read on the net/media, then no point trying to put my view across.

Assad has no future in Syria, and anyone including you who says he is part of the solution, is farcically naive.

Assad is the ONLY key to this chaos, the only way forward to save the country is to include him in the dialogue, to establish a political agenda/ timeline and a process to change power without arms. Again, if this were as straightforward as you make it out to be, it wouldn't been dragged this long. It wouldn't have taken USA, Russia, and all the gang that long to agree over lunch. But its not as simple. You seem strongly content that the only way to 'enforce' democracy is by the use of arms.

So please stop with the nonsense about Assad having a future as president of Syria or as part of negotiations.

IMHO, the only source of nonsense and extremism in this thread are your posts.

Thankfully the FSA are brave and are prepared to face the Assad thugs and tanks, unlike most of their detractors.

What a wonderful transition into democracy.

To say the FSA contributed to the violence is ridiculous. The Sunni community in Syria were given two options, shut up and be quiet and accept an unelected mass murdering president who was in the process of murdering all opposition in Syria even before the FSA was formed, or else fighting back to save themselves and their communities.

Again sources? are you Syrian? had lived, visited in Syria, or have any Syrian friends to keep making such statements? Oh right, you're an avid reader

Blaming them for Assad shelling whole cities and towns is ridiculous but I doubt this will stop you in post after post from blaming the FSA for the violence in Syria.

Absolutely, I blame them for hiding in residential areas, for citing sectarian hate. For killing innocent people and blaming the Syrian forces, for ransacking shops and homes, for terrorising the people to do as they want, for rejecting dialogue. I have seen, heard and lived the events. When a sides forces you to follow their agenda without your free will, they become the thing they're fighting against. - thankfully, you've never experience it, and I hope you never do.

The SFA - SaudiFundedArmy- is a group of terrorists, foreign fighters and jehadists, some from this country (Irish Libyans), who have fought against gadaffi then travelled to Syria to fight. What next? will they take arms tomorrow when they disagree with the political agenda of the Irish government??

This conflict seems to be focused on either being with either FSA or ASSAD.
And who I ask is with Syria? no one. well, I am with Syria, and F**K both sides.