Waterford gets its missing bit back!

mike65

Waterford
Two electoral divisions in county Waterford and parts of two others with a population of 1,597, currently allocated to the existing Tipperary South constituency, should be transferred to the Waterford constituency, which should remain as a 4-seat constituency. This ends the
breach of the Waterford county boundary.

I'm sure everyone is happy the constituency and county are now in harmony!

abouttobebanned

This is one of those threads that if someone read it out to ya and said..."right...guess who started this thread"

You'd instantly say mike65.

BBM77

I was hoping that the east of the county would become a new constituency, Waterford East or something consisting of Waterford city, Tramore and the county area in-between and possibly part south of south Kilkenny. From the cursory look I gave to the report it just seems to be following the usual medieval county lines bs and is not really purposing anything progressive. I suppose that is no real surprise.

To be honest I even find these maps annoying. They give the impression that counties are islands and ignore the realities of parts of cities and towns being in other counties with no administrative structure to account for it. It is such a fanciful way to divide a country into administrative areas.

CardBordWindow

BBM77 wrote: »

I was hoping that the east of the county would become a new constituency, Waterford East or something consisting of Waterford city, Tramore and the county area in-between and possibly part south of south Kilkenny.

/Awaits backlash

Professey Chin

I think we should slowly start moving back the welcome to kilkenny signs across the bridge. Move them about 10/15 feet every month or so. It'll take a while but we'll have annexed a nice chunk of land before anyone notices :pac:

merlante

BBM77 wrote: »

I was hoping that the east of the county would become a new constituency, Waterford East or something consisting of Waterford city, Tramore and the county area in-between and possibly part south of south Kilkenny. From the cursory look I gave to the report it just seems to be following the usual medieval county lines bs and is not really purposing anything progressive. I suppose that is no real surprise.

To be honest I even find these maps annoying. They give the impression that counties are islands and ignore the realities of parts of cities and towns being in other counties with no administrative structure to account for it. It is such a fanciful way to divide a country into administrative areas.

Well, if Limerick city can get a 4 seater (120K pop required) with a 90K urban population, Waterford city could surely get a 3 seater (90K required) with a 51K+10K (Tramore) = 61K urban population.

But... living in the real world, which unfortunately is what we have to do, Waterford city's 3.5K (and rural hinterland pop) north of the contested and perilous boundary with her majesty's mighty and glorious Co. Kilkenny (long may she remain intact and undivided) was never going to 'pass' to Waterford; and also, from a GAA perspective (which of course is absolutely paramount in all matters of politics, geography and service provision), it would mean 'cutting adrift' county Waterford, forcing it to merge with a Cork or Tipperary constituency, thus opening up the possibility of people having to vote across GAA boundaries, and even the scope for an undesirable mixing of bloodlines, etc.

So for all of these 'excellent' reasons, it will never happen.

mike65

That all said the City boundary could be extended north without it having anything to do with the voting constituencies. The two are not invisible.

CardBordWindow

merlante wrote: »

Well, if Limerick city can get a 4 seater (120K pop required) with a 90K urban population, Waterford city could surely get a 3 seater (90K required) with a 51K+10K (Tramore) = 61K urban population.

But if the recommendation of cutting the number of TDs by 8 goes ahead, this is even more unlikely to happen.

merlante

CardBordWindow wrote: »

But if the recommendation of cutting the number of TDs by 8 goes ahead, this is even more unlikely to happen.

I've taken that into account. Currently, there is 1 TD per 25,000. It is intended that there will be 1 TD per 30,000, and that Limerick city will be a 4 seater.

Kxiii

The Great Chinholio wrote: »

I think we should slowly start moving back the welcome to kilkenny signs across the bridge. Move them about 10/15 feet every month or so. It'll take a while but we'll have annexed a nice chunk of land before anyone notices :pac:

Right so you grab the shovels, I'll keep sketch.

Chiparus

I wonder if they are happy to be represented by Waterfords high profile TDs?

AdMMM

The area that we're getting is Mattie McGrath's locality so I'd imagine they'll be only delighted...

charlemont

AdMMM wrote: »

The area that we're getting is Mattie McGrath's locality so I'd imagine they'll be only delighted...

It will affect Mattie's vote next time round, But that area of Waterford is in reality part of the hinterland of Clonmel and the surrounding area's like Ardfinnan, Newcastle etc. The area will now be completely forgotten after an election, Kilmacomma and Mountain Road should really be transferred into Co Tipp or Clonmel Borough Council, Likewise for parts of south Kilkenny to Waterford City.

Chiparus

AdMMM wrote: »

The area that we're getting is Mattie McGrath's locality so I'd imagine they'll be only delighted...

I wonder who has a higher profile ,McGrath or Deasy?

calvin_zola

deasy? Usen't he be a TD yeeeears ago

urba

Historically Kilculliheen was part of Waterford too. This area includes all of Ferrybank out to the ring road, including that empty shopping centre. It only became part of Kilkenny in 1898, and some of it was returned to Waterford in the 1950s.

I think there are very strong reasons to redeem this part of historic North Waterford.

urba

I don't know how to upload pictures, but a map of unredeemed Waterford is here. http://maps.osi.ie/publicviewer/#V1,661425,613204,4,7

The yellow line is the historical boundary.

BBM77

urba wrote: »

Historically Kilculliheen was part of Waterford too. This area includes all of Ferrybank out to the ring road, including that empty shopping centre. It only became part of Kilkenny in 1898, and some of it was returned to Waterford in the 1950s.

I think there are very strong reasons to redeem this part of historic North Waterford.

Do you know why it became part of Kilkenny in 1898?

urba

BBM77 wrote: »

urba wrote: »

Historically Kilculliheen was part of Waterford too. This area includes all of Ferrybank out to the ring road, including that empty shopping centre. It only became part of Kilkenny in 1898, and some of it was returned to Waterford in the 1950s.

I think there are very strong reasons to redeem this part of historic North Waterford.

Do you know why it became part of Kilkenny in 1898?

I've no idea, but thats no reason not to make something up It was part of the Local Government (Ireland) Act 1898.

Anyway they are all ethnic Deise over there, as shown by their eating of blaas.

I wonder if Julian Walton could do something on it.

Of course, there are better reasons than history for why Kilculliheen should be part of the city council, but the historical aspect helps shake up 'identity' issues.

fricatus

charlemont wrote: »

It will affect Mattie's vote next time round, But that area of Waterford is in reality part of the hinterland of Clonmel and the surrounding area's like Ardfinnan, Newcastle etc. The area will now be completely forgotten after an election, Kilmacomma and Mountain Road should really be transferred into Co Tipp or Clonmel Borough Council, Likewise for parts of south Kilkenny to Waterford City.

But that would make sense!

Black Suir

AdMMM wrote: »

The area that we're getting is Mattie McGrath's locality so I'd imagine they'll be only delighted...

Mattie did a lot of work for the area of County Waterford he has represented. Just ask the majority of people he has represented. Pity the rest of the county cant saw the same about the clowns we have. Just heard Paudie Coffey on WLR tell us how hard he works and how popular his clinics are. Ya right Paudie. Do you believe yourself.

merlante

BBM77 wrote: »

Do you know why it became part of Kilkenny in 1898?

Basically, until the GAA became a force, nobody gave a damn whether an area was technically Kilkenny or the liberties of Waterford, as it was. Waterford has a lot smaller in terms of surface area back then so it was probably logical to have it outside the borough. Not so 114 years later!

If it weren't for hurling, Waterford city probably would have been expanded northward automatically by some national commission about 40 years ago. But because hurling/GAA always trumps planning in this country, the northern boundary contracted and the southern boundary expanded, despite Co. Waterford and Co. Kilkenny both being equally separate from Waterford county borough, as Waterford city was previously termed.

The real cause of this situation is the willingness of central government to basically 'stay out of' issues and disputes outside of Dublin that, despite being local issues, can only be resolved at the national level, and indeed are national planning issues.

merlante

Here's a "if you didn't laugh you'd cry" blast from 2005:

Waterford City Council compared to Nazis as boundary row hots up

Published on Wednesday 3 August 2005 10:08

By Sean Keane skeane@kilkenny.ie

WATERFORD City Council has been accused of acting like Nazis.

The allegation was made by the former chairwoman of Kilkenny Co Council, Mary Hilda Cavanagh, on Friday.

She described Waterford City Council’s proposal to extend into County Kilkenny as something that “Hitler and his hench men” would try.

Cllr Cavanagh said that looking back through history, it was obvious that the cause of World War II was the aggression shown by the Nazis and added that the actions of Waterford City, which wants to double its size at the expense of Co Kilkenny, reminded her of that dark period.

Cllr Cavanagh who is out of the country at present and uncontactable told a special meeting of Kilkenny Co Council on Friday afternoon that the official proposal by Waterford City to extend into County Kilkenny was preposterous and disgraceful.

“It just does not bear thinking about,” she added.

She said that Kilkenny should not be afraid of Waterford and said that being from a border area herself, Galmoy, (next to Tipperary) she knew the importance of what was happening in the south of the county and said that she would do all in her power to ensure that Waterford City did not get an inch of County Kilkenny.

Landgrabbers

Emotions ran high during the debate which saw Cllr Pat Fitzpatrick compare Waterford City Council to landgrabbers.

“We had them before in our history and defeated them and I would like Waterford City Council to take note, there is no room for landgrabbers around here,” he said.

The financial implications for Kilkenny are also becoming clearer in the wake of the application by Waterford City to take 6,000 acres of Co Kilkenny and to make 5,000 people who live there part of County Waterford.

“Rate payers in Co Kilkenny pay 22% less than their counterparts in Waterford,” Cllr Michael Lanigan pointed out.

“Over the next 10 years, 15,000 people will move to the area under threat and all these people will be under the jurisdiction of Waterford, if they get their way,” Cllr Bobby Aylward pointed out,

A heart-felt and eloquent contribution to the debate came from Cllr Toms Bhreathnach from Kilmacow.

He said the proposal was wasteful of the energies of public representatives and officials of both councils.

“A divisive and fractious element has been drawn into relations between us.

“Would it not be far better to be around the table working together on issues of greater import to the quality of life of people in both Kilkenny and Waterford?” he asked.

“It is common in Waterford to dismiss the feelings of people in South Kilkenny by referring to the colour of the jersey.

“Those who do this do not understand the symbolism involved or the depth of the sense of place and community it represents,” he said passionately.

“If it was properly understood then this proposal would not have been made,” he added.

The same Mary Hilda Cavanagh has been on the board of WIT for all this time.

I'd be interested to know exactly where this "depth of the sense of place" and attachment to Co. Kilkenny comes from, if not from the GAA. Hardly from the English who created the county system? And as was pointed out, the area north of Waterford city switched between different jurisdictions on a number of occasions, but I doubt anybody cared until the 20th century.

Of course, as far as the noble councillors were concerned, it was actually all about money, i.e. rates.

urba

merlante wrote: »

BBM77 wrote: »

Do you know why it became part of Kilkenny in 1898?

Basically, until the GAA became a force, nobody gave a damn whether an area was technically Kilkenny or the liberties of Waterford, as it was. Waterford has a lot smaller in terms of surface area back then so it was probably logical to have it outside the borough. Not so 114 years later!

So basically the GAA was 14 years old at the time of the redrawing of the boundary. I wonder how the dealt with the issue then. There may not have been any clubs in the area at the time.

Kilkenny didn't win the All Ireland until 1904. Poaching our players!!!

urba

Back then diocese was probably more important. I dont know. Thisblooks interesting www.genuki.org.uk/big/irl/KIK/Kilculliheen/

comeraghs

Are any of the KK hurling team from south of Ballyhale?

CardBordWindow

comeraghs wrote: »

Are any of the KK hurling team from south of Ballyhale?

Aidan Fogarty is from Mullinavat.

Speak Now

CardBordWindow wrote: »

Aidan Fogarty is from Mullinavat.

Couldn't be further away, isn't he from Urlingford?
Eoin Murphy from Glenmore is probably furthest south.

Back on topic, some jigging of constituencies just to reduce by 8. Surely we could go alot lower than 158.

merlante

Jerry Seinfeld wrote: »

Couldn't be further away, isn't he from Urlingford?
Eoin Murphy from Glenmore is probably furthest south.

Back on topic, some jigging of constituencies just to reduce by 8. Surely we could go alot lower than 158.

With Merkel running the show we could probably go down to a few part timers.

But seriously though, how many is too little or too many? While I think we could lose a lot more TDs (and beef up the councils in scope and power), we have to remember that democracy and representation is important. Getting sick of listening to people wanting to chop TDs *just* because the UK has such and such a number, or, even worse, due to comparisons between Ireland (a country) and the likes of greater Manchester (a city).