This turf cutting row - will Europe ever know?

NIMAN

Watching the stand-off on the TV the other day, and heard someone official say that we, as a country, would get a €25,000 fine each day that turf is cut on these designated bogs.

Got me thinking, "how will Europe ever find out?"

I certainly won't tell them, will you?

And can't see officials from Europe standing around these bogs all over the country to see if anyone is cutting on them.

Northumbria

What's this? Has the EU protected the bogs or Ireland?

GoldFour4

I was listening to it on the radio today. Someone put forward the argument that they deserve to cut the turf because it fuels their fires and keeps their family warm.

If this is their argument then I'm fully behind banning it. I don't have a bog in my back yard, I have to buy turf. I do live near a forest, but I can't go cut down a tree cause I want firewood.

I don't think its fair that the majority of people will have to pay a 25000 fine with taxes because someone wants to cut a few pieces of turf.

Cookie_Monster

They'll simply fine us until we prove it's not happening I'd imagine, something we'll never be able to do cos of all the cabbageheads who somehow think they're entitled

squod

NIMAN wrote: »

And can't see officials from Europe standing around these bogs all over the country to see if anyone is cutting on them.

They have satellites. They can see you touching yourself.

galwayrush

Northumbria wrote: »

What's this? Has the EU protected the bogs or Ireland?

Of course, they will evolve into massive oil reserves in a few hundred thousand years.

squod

malachyscott wrote: »

I was listening to it on the radio today. Someone put forward the argument that they deserve to cut the turf because it fuels their fires and keeps their family warm.

If this is their argument then I'm fully behind banning it. I don't have a bog in my back yard, I have to buy turf. I do live near a forest, but I can't go cut down a tree cause I want firewood.

I don't think its fair that the majority of people will have to pay a 25000 fine with taxes because someone wants to cut a few pieces of turf.

You can get in your car, drive to the bog, cut turf, then go home.

Where To

I have four years supply in my shed and another two in the hill.

In a couple of years they'll be gold dust and I'll be rich!

RICH!!! I tells ya!!

galwayrush

We can use them like a long term bond to eventually pay off our national debt.

spiritcrusher

malachyscott wrote: »

I don't have a bog in my back yard, I have to buy turf. I do live near a forest, but I can't go cut down a tree cause I want firewood.

You could if you owned owned the forest. And many people do in fact cut their own trees for firewood. Mad isn't it?
Anyway, these people own their bogs, either by buying it with their own money or inheriting it.

patwicklow

Next they will ban growing your own veg its the way its gone nothing surprises me anymore in this world its gone a sad sad world control control control..

galwayrush

patwicklow wrote: »

Next they will ban growing your own veg its the way its gone nothing surprises me anymore in this world its gone a sad sad world control control control..

Probably, unless they find some way of adding VAT to it or taxing it as a benefit in kind..

Chucken

I wonder how many will comment here,who have never spent a back breaking day/summer in the bog


Free??? it is,ya!

Feathers

malachyscott wrote: »

If this is their argument then I'm fully behind banning it. I don't have a bog in my back yard, I have to buy turf. I do live near a forest, but I can't go cut down a tree cause I want firewood.

What if you bought the forest specifically so you'd have firewood & were then banned from getting it?

If the government doesn't want people cutting turf, they should buy their land off them for what's worth.

ilovesleep

I don't get it.

First of all. This is our country. Our land. Why the hell is the EU telling us what to do with our land? What right do they have?

Secondaly, turf grows back after cutting it. At which rate, I don't know.

Lastly, we're living in a world where oil is running out. For many homes in ireland they have either one or two of the following - open fire, oil burner. Should we all just move to the boilers and use up as much oil as possible.

hondasam

malachyscott wrote: »

I was listening to it on the radio today. Someone put forward the argument that they deserve to cut the turf because it fuels their fires and keeps their family warm.

If this is their argument then I'm fully behind banning it. I don't have a bog in my back yard, I have to buy turf. I do live near a forest, but I can't go cut down a tree cause I want firewood.

I don't think its fair that the majority of people will have to pay a 25000 fine with taxes because someone wants to cut a few pieces of turf.

What is wrong with cutting turf? why do they want to ban it?
No one has a bog in their back yard but anyone who has a bog should be able to cut it.
I don't think it's fair on people who have to buy turf if they have their own bog.

GoldFour4

I didn't know that it was privately owned bog. That's a completely different story then what I thought .

ilovesleep

I want to fling sods of turf at someones arse in protest.

Tin Lizzy

ilovesleep wrote: »

Secondaly, turf grows back after cutting it. At which rate, I don't know.

It's only about 2 to 5 thousand years to grow a bog.

ilovesleep

Tin Lizzy wrote: »

It's only about 2 to 5 thousand years to grow a bog.

Ah, ok, that would explain the EU ruling so.

Chucken

ilovesleep wrote: »

Ah, ok, that would explain the EU ruling so.

Its one thing to stop machine cutting,but they're trying to stop hand cutting too in some areas.

squod

ilovesleep wrote: »

Lastly, we're living in a world where oil is running out. For many homes in ireland they have either one or two of the following - open fire, oil burner. Should we all just move to the boilers and use up as much oil as possible.

Think the gubberment are encouraging solar panels (from China), rock wool insulation (from China), coal (from Poland Ukraine or China), wood pellets (from Canada) and gas (from Ireland) which we can buy back for ourselves.

Capt'n Midnight

Aren't the turf cutters getting money to not cut turf ?

Also the Dutch were the ones who were preserving our bogs long before us.
http://nederlandierland.bravehost.com/bog.html

Cookie_Monster

They're being paid not to cut it, it's a tiny overall area of protected bog and it's of national importance as a natural site and for bio diversity.

I'm sure people would have problems if they started mining again in Glendalough, this is no different.

Biggins

NIMAN wrote: »

Watching the stand-off on the TV the other day, and heard someone official say that we, as a country, would get a €25,000 fine each day that turf is cut on these designated bogs.

Got me thinking, "how will Europe ever find out?"

I certainly won't tell them, will you?

And can't see officials from Europe standing around these bogs all over the country to see if anyone is cutting on them.

There's bound to be some complacent government supporting puppet, willing to grass them up, you can be sure of!

jimmy blevins

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

They'll simply fine us until we prove it's not happening I'd imagine, something we'll never be able to do cos of all the cabbageheads who somehow think they're entitled

When will they get it into their thick cabbageheads that the natural resources of the nation are there for the benifit of big corporations.:rolleyes:

Biggins

patwicklow wrote: »

Next they will ban growing your own veg its the way its gone nothing surprises me anymore in this world its gone a sad sad world control control control..

Wouldn't be the first daft thing they have done!

http://townhall.com/tipsheet/guybenson/2011/11/18/ridiculous_european_union_bans_scientific_fact

Brussels bureaucrats were ridiculed yesterday after banning drink manufacturers from claiming that water can prevent dehydration...

EU regulations, which aim to uphold food standards across member states, are frequently criticised. Rules banning bent bananas and curved cucumbers were scrapped in 2008 after causing international ridicule.

Ukip MEP Paul Nuttall said the ruling made the “bendy banana law” look “positively sane.” He said: “I had to read this four or five times before I believed it. It is a perfect example of what Brussels does best. Spend three years, with 20 separate pieces of correspondence before summoning 21 professors to Parma where they decide with great solemnity that drinking water cannot be sold as a way to combat dehydration. Then they make this judgment law and make it clear that if anybody dares sell water claiming that it is effective against dehydration they could get into serious legal bother."

Lima Golf

Ive grown up with a turf fire in the range in the kitchen every day and our little country cottage won't be the same without it! It heats our water, our radiators and we even use the range for cooking. We own our bog, why should we be banned from using the land for its intended purpose?

Turf cutting is an Irish tradition, part of our heritage and culture in many areas of the country. If a certain minority group stated that it was part of their heritage and culture there'd practically be TDs there with wellies on, ready to foot it for them.

Shryke

People were promised money for fuel in return for not cutting but apparently didn't receive any. Some that did didn't find the money given in any way substantial. With the price of fuel that's not a surprise.

And some people just don't care about ecology. They would rather shoot anything that isn't a cow or a sheep and tear up designated protected sites.

Government should be a lot more on the ball. They've fumbled this up and continue to do so. I would be shocked if some ministers knew how to start a car let alone implement policy. Following Irish politics is like watching a bad sitcom with no punch lines.

Son Of A Vidic

NIMAN wrote: »

Got me thinking, "how will Europe ever find out?"

Look up and you'll see how.

Cookie_Monster

Lima Golf wrote: »

Ive grown up with a turf fire in the range in the kitchen every day and our little country cottage won't be the same without it! It heats our water, our radiators and we even use the range for cooking. We own our bog, why should we be banned from using the land for its intended purpose?
.

what gives you the right to say digging up bog and burning it is the intended purpose?

anyway you can use the heaps of the cash the gov are freely given you to buy turf, or pick an alternate site. this didn't happen overnight you know, there's been a near decade of warning.

Lima Golf

what gives you the right to say digging up bog and burning it is the intended purpose? QUOTE


Over 500 years of people digging up bog and burning it kind of indicates that it's the intended purpose...


Cutting and saving turf is not an easy task. It takes 4 of us doing at least 8-10 long days of back breaking work but the annual savings versus oil or gas made it worthwhile. The "heaps of cash" as you say, may contribute towards alternative fuel but won't cover the fact we now own land that is completely worthless and of no use to us.

Rasheed

I get that the government will get fined and of course I don't want that. I personally think the compensation is very fair, was never a big fan of a sore back after a week of footing, but even less of a fan of being cold in winter!

What I don't get is what are we saving the bogs for? A heritage site? Are people really thinking that townies are going to make a day trip to see a bog? Am I missing something? Correct me if I am!

Cookie_Monster

Lima Golf wrote: »

Over 500 years of people digging up bog and burning it kind of indicates that it's the intended purpose...

and the however many thousands and thousands of years before that?

The "heaps of cash" as you say, may contribute towards alternative fuel but won't cover the fact we now own land that is completely worthless and of no use to us

it's invaluable, not worthless which is why it's being protected in the first place. To think it's only use is to be raped for cheap fuel is a pretty awful attitude too tbh.

crusher000

All levels of farming, crop production etc. can be deemed as damaging to the land. Turf cutting has been around for 100's of years and someone that solely relies on turf will have the view that no amount of compensation will make up for it. So your given money to stop cutting turf but what do you do with the money if ,

A. your house isn't plumbed for oil or gas heating. Compensation won't cover the cost of installing new sysem and purchase of oil/gas.

B. You buy turf of someone else thus increasing the amount of turf that they have to cut to supply a person that no longer can cut turf. That really helps preserve bogs.

I say close all the parks in the Inner Cities to make up for the depletion of the bogs cause to me that's a waste of land and can't see the point to them. All that cutting grass and trimming of hedges are restricting the natural ability of plantation to flourish in it's natural capabilities.

Galwayguy35

I went down to see what was happening on Tuesday as I live in Woodford. Was weird to see all the RTE and TV3 cameras around the place. I didn't think it would make national news two days in a row

Pedant

malachyscott wrote: »

I was listening to it on the radio today. Someone put forward the argument that they deserve to cut the turf because it fuels their fires and keeps their family warm.

If this is their argument then I'm fully behind banning it. I don't have a bog in my back yard, I have to buy turf. I do live near a forest, but I can't go cut down a tree cause I want firewood.

Ridiculous argument. If there's a bog on their land or if they share a designated commons, they own that bog (or at least a portion of it) and should be allowed to do whatever they want with it. They own it after all. Similarly, if you own a plot of lands that had a few trees on it, you should be allowed to fell those trees and cut them up for firewood if that's your wish, after all, you own the trees.

The fact that you don't have a bog in your back garden is your problem, not theirs. I don't see what gives you the right to tell people what they can do with their land or property just because you're at a disadvantage because you don't own something that they do. It's this sense of entitlement that really sickens me.

According you your logic, people should be forced to use piped water instead of spring wells because you don't have a spring under your property. Or maybe we should stop people from growing vegetables in their own back garden and forced them to buy in supermarkets with designated suppliers because you live on the fifth story of an apartment block and don't have a garden to grow your own vegetables.

If it were the case, however, that people were cutting turf on land that isn't theirs and weren't given permission by the owner, then, obviously, they should be stopped.

Lima Golf

it's invaluable, not worthless which is why it's being protected in the first place. To think it's only use is to be raped for cheap fuel is a pretty awful attitude too tbh.[/Quote]

That actually made me laugh. It is totally worthless. When you can't cut turf, graze animals, build a house or grow crops on a piece of land you own it's of no value to you! You can't use it and you cant sell it. If that's not worthless piece of ground to own, I don't know what is.

And as for "raping" the bog for cheap fuel, where do you think your oil/gas/coal or whatever you use comes from? Do you not think the oil/gas resevoirs are being "raped". Maybe we should preserve all types of fuel sources in this country and pray for a tropical winter.

Protecting bogs? Jesus Christ.. Politicians get paid for this shlte.

Pedant

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

what gives you the right to say digging up bog and burning it is the intended purpose?

What gives you the right to dictate what people can do with their own land?

Capt'n Midnight

Pedant wrote: »

Ridiculous argument. If there's a bog on their land or if they share a designated commons, they own that bog (or at least a portion of it) and should be allowed to do whatever they want with it. They own it after all. Similarly, if you own a plot of lands that had a few trees on it, you should be allowed to fell those trees and cut them up for firewood if that's your wish, after all, you own the trees.

You do realise we have inherited Norman rules for land use rights,

Which means even if you own the land outright, not just a 1,000 year lease or other title you don't automatically get rights to stuff like fishing in the river flowing through it. You may not get rights to forestry (not sure about this).

But I'm fairly sure that the rights to minerals under your land are separate to the land itself. Defining turf as a mineral (it's non renewable after all unless you recreate a new bog) would remove the rights a lá ye olde surrender and regrant.


Let's not forget that the government has the option of compulsory purchase order anyway.

robp

The BBC have picked on this. The only moral and economic option left is to start enforcing Irish law and protect these sites. The bog cutters would have you believe they know more about ecology than the authorities on this. Nothing whatsoever to back their claims that bog cutting is not damaging. Are we supposed to ignore the litany of findings against their activities E.G. the EPA's report Boglands or the Fernandez report which condemn bog cutting and simply trust them? That simply won't wash outside Ireland lads.

dmcronin

Why doesn't anyone stop Bord na Mona then????? They've been doing it for donkeys years with fcuk-off sized machinery.

Chucken

Chucken wrote: »

I wonder how many will comment here,who have never spent a back breaking day/summer in the bog


Free??? it is,ya!

I was turning mine a couple of weeks ago, just waiting for a fre dry days before taking it home. I may be waiting 'till September with all the rain we're having!

In this area, the amount of turf cut appears to be at an all time high, many are turning to turf as oil is now too expensive.

Capt'n Midnight

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

You do realise we have inherited Norman rules for land use rights,

Which means even if you own the land outright, not just a 1,000 year lease or other title you don't automatically get rights to stuff like fishing in the river flowing through it. You may not get rights to forestry (not sure about this).

But I'm fairly sure that the rights to minerals under your land are separate to the land itself. Defining turf as a mineral (it's non renewable after all unless you recreate a new bog) would remove the rights a lá ye olde surrender and regrant.


Let's not forget that the government has the option of compulsory purchase order anyway.

Most people who own bogland will have on the land registration documents a section relating to turbury rights (cutting and saving turf), there is usually also a section specifically excluding mineral rights.

Feathers

Lima Golf wrote: »

We own our bog, why should we be banned from using the land for its intended purpose?

Turf cutting is an Irish tradition, part of our heritage and culture in many areas of the country.

I'm sure there are some South Americans saying the same thing about logging the rainforests.

Bogs aren't being protected for the sake of it, they're a natural habitat for flora/fauna that's getting wiped out. While it is a nice tradition continued to be done by families and neighbours by hand, this protection has to come first.

That said, why should the owners take the financial hit for a national/EU decision? The bogs should be bought under a compulsory purchase order, as per any other land the government wants, at a fair market price.

Lima Golf

Lima Golf wrote: »

it's invaluable, not worthless which is why it's being protected in the first place. To think it's only use is to be raped for cheap fuel is a pretty awful attitude too tbh
That actually made me laugh. It is totally worthless. When you can't cut turf, graze animals, build a house or grow crops on a piece of land you own it's of no value to you! You can't use it and you cant sell it. If that's not worthless piece of ground to own, I don't know what is.

And as for "raping" the bog for cheap fuel, where do you think your oil/gas/coal or whatever you use comes from? Do you not think the oil/gas resevoirs are being "raped". Maybe we should preserve all types of fuel sources in this country and pray for a tropical winter.

If you're prevented from cutting turf, it may be worth trying to grwo SRC willow on it. I've started one acre of willow this year at the back of the house, hopefully in a few years I will have a supply of firewood.

Willow will grow well on bogland as well.

Feathers

Feathers wrote: »

I'm sure there are some South Americans saying the same thing about logging the rainforests.

Bogs aren't being protected for the sake of it, they're a natural habitat for flora/fauna that's getting wiped out. While it is a nice tradition continued to be done by families and neighbours by hand, this protection has to come first.

That said, why should the owners take the financial hit for a national/EU decision? The bogs should be bought under a compulsory purchase order, as per any other land the government wants, at a fair market price.

Big difference between clearing land to grow beefburgers for fat Americans and cutting turf to heat your home!

IrishHomer

Deleted User wrote: »

Big difference between clearing land to grow beefburgers for fat Americans and cutting turf to heat your home!

Turf is useless at heating a home unless Roscommon turf is extra special.

prinz

Biggins wrote: »

Wouldn't be the first daft thing they have done!

Most of which are urban myths and total bollix. There was never a bendy banana law, or a curved cucumber law. What there was was an EU wide approved system of grading certain products so that Joe Bloggs in Ireland knew approximately what he'd be getting if he ordered an artic full of cucumbers from Portugal.

http://ec.europa.eu/dgs/communication/take_part/myths/fact_033_en.htm

IrishHomer

IrishHomer wrote: »

Turf is useless at heating a home unless Roscommon turf is extra special.

Your house must have useless insulation!

I have no problems heating a 200m2 house with underfloor heating.