Ireland in denial

livinonaprayer

I think that the Irish child protection system is getting better. It may have been bad in the past but systematical abuse happens all over the world. At least the government is at least trying to address the problem now, where as other nations try to sweep it under the carpet and continue to cover it up. (And no I don't work for the government)

shopaholic01

Fizzlesque wrote: »

Cheers, Shopaholic.

Yeah, some topics really bring out the detailed post writer in me, despite my best intentions to stick to the more frivolous topics/threads and to keep my posts short (ish).

I do continue to come to terms with the hand fate flung at me, and to be honest, these days I'm very positive and full of good cheer - part of the reason I express myself so candidly is because the sweeping stuff under the carpet/let's pretend nothing is wrong that went with the abuse and neglect really hindered the healing process for me. I had to become the annoying therapy-attending member of my family, who brought up conversations people didn't want brought up, at the beginning of my journey back to good emotional health.

Open and honest expression/communication was vital - and I had to really push to be allowed to have that, but in time it turned out to be the right thing to do --- all wounds have healed. Well, as much as they can.

The silence makes matters much worse, I hope my posts don't depress people; I really mean it when I say I'm in a safe and sunny place now, even though the adoption pain still gnaws at my heart every day, I've come to terms with the tragic events that lead me to have to make that terrible decision in the first place.

Those ads on TV with the abused children crying alone in their cots/beds afraid to tell anyone what's going on really get to me. I wish I could give every child a voice to be heard - and, I guess, in a small way, part of me still needs to use the voice I eventually managed to find.

Right, that's enough for today. Life came good in the end, and I'm happy I stayed around long enough for that to happen.

I enjoy your posts, you always sound sincere.

It's great that you are so open, our typical Irish repression is something that really needs to change. I think as a society we would be much healthier if we could resist the 'I'm grand' default response and say how we really feel!

You actually sound more balanced than people who had more conventional upbringings.

Fighting Irish

steddyeddy wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2012/0621/breaking3.html

Children in care are dying. Children in the care of the catholic church have died, have been tortured, have been raped. I was a victim of an abusive houshold and in later in care before I escaped. I dont get why the people of ireland think abuse towards kids is ok. I say that because the same crap is going on again and again. I know victims of abuse that the gaurds are stilll ignoring, that the hse are ignoring, This is still going on. my question is why dont irish people think child abuse is wrong?

lol gtfo

Lord Bafford

Fighting Irish wrote: »

lol gtfo

What time is mass on Sunday? :rolleyes:

charlemont

the_syco wrote: »

We do think it's wrong.

If you want to fling crap around, I'll fling crap back; what have you done to help fix the child abuse problem in Ireland before you fled?

At least he is trying to highlight and discuss it..

Phill Ewinn

The HSE is a massive money making machine. I doubt that any proper control of it will ever be put into place. That's the first problem IMO.

Incompetence and lazyness together with funding and training problems seem to weigh the scales significantly against children in state care.

I don't know what the solution is. I can say though that children with intellectual problems here get excellent care between the hours of 9am and 4pm.

I can't say there is any centre for teens from troubled families (or troubled teens). Is it easier for the HSE to take care of one group over another? Yes.

I don't accept there is any excuse for what's going on. I don't see any political will to tackle the HSE over this issue.

Debunker

I was exorcised as a teenager. I can't tell you how many scars that leaves, but I'm not going to go into that. A lot of people do infact look away. I was talking about how the priests should've never gotten away with rape and my tutor told me to shut it and get over it. I bit my tongue, but that sort of "well it doesn't effect me" attitude is kind of clogging how our society deals with this.

Of course people will say they're against child abuse, there's just no proper system implemented to actually help the ones who need it the most. The one's who really do need it end up being the ones who can't talk about it and if they can't talk about it then who really knows what they have to deal with in the first place?

I suppose that's also another moot point.

bee_keeper

steddyeddy wrote: »

The gaurds involved with abuse need to be fired for a start and the hse needs to be changed completely.

the guards rely on the hse - social workers to research the problem before anything can be done , the HSE,s idea of doing something is to have endless care conferences

bee_keeper

seamus wrote: »

The referendum on the rights of the child is going to bring up a lot of bizarre dirt from the Irish psyche, which we don't know exists.

Idealogically, morally and outwardly the vast majority of Irish people condemn child abuse and want to see an end to it.

However we also have a touch of anti-establishmentism in our heads and as society we strongly oppose the state sticking its nose between parents and their children (though we seemed to have no issue with the church doing it).

The end result is that while we may look at a particular case and foam at the mouth to say that the state should have intervened, we are reluctant to give the state the power to intervene, lest that power be accidentally (or indeed maliciously) used against us.

If you give the state a little bit more power to intervene earlier to save a child, you risk having children taken away from innocent parents over misunderstandings.
The situation we have at the moment is the opposite - out of fear of making a mistake, children are left with abusive parents for longer than they should be, and on top of that abusive parents and families are given a state-enshrined right to continuous access to their child even though the child has been removed for their protection.

In reality that's what the referendum will boil down to - are we happy to accept that sometimes a child will be accidentally taken away from innocent parents (temporarily), in exchange for a greater ability to intervene earlier in actual abusive relationships?

Probably something to do with the fact that practically every person currently at the top of the organisation was at one time or another aware of the abuse going on and took active steps to supress the information and protect the offenders.
If you believe that you are divinely required to take your direction from these men, then you would want to take a good hard look at your ethics.

the state already has the right to intervene when crimes are committed and child abuse is a crime , the problem is the state HSE perfers to twiddle its thumbs and hand ring

RaRaRasputin

So...how is this thread going to change anything exactly? Are we just going to collect some more moans or will this debate change something?

wingsof daun

Older people here still have respect for the priesthood and follow the Catholic church regime steadfastly. They continue like this in the belief that they are solving the problem of abuse or that whatever the Church does is right. They feel an obligation to obey and not to question church authorities.

bee_keeper

wingsof daun wrote: »

Older people here still have respect for the priesthood and follow the Catholic church regime steadfastly. They continue like this in the belief that they are solving the problem of abuse or that whatever the Church does is right. They feel an obligation to obey and not to question church authorities.

its not a church issue in most cases , its an authorities issue

neemish

Lord Bafford wrote: »

The church, to this day, continue their vile attempts to cover up and obfuscate investigations into child abuse. They are also withholding payments to victims.

There seems to be a view that all child abuse in Ireland has taken place within the Catholic Church. Abuse within the Church is very serious, but it is only the tip of the iceberg in terms of child abuse.

The vast majority of abuse takes place within the home (can't find the statistics off hand).

I'm not taking away from the suffering of past abuses, but what about the one in four children who are being abused in some form today. Walk into any classroom, count the kids and cast a thought that statistics tell us that a quarter of them will suffer abuse.

And what about the children being trafficked into our country for prostitution. This weekend there will be kids in ireland who will be used for sex. Let's protest about that

bee_keeper

neemish wrote: »

There seems to be a view that all child abuse in Ireland has taken place within the Catholic Church. Abuse within the Church is very serious, but it is only the tip of the iceberg in terms of child abuse.

The vast majority of abuse takes place within the home (can't find the statistics off hand).

I'm not taking away from the suffering of past abuses, but what about the one in four children who are being abused in some form today. Walk into any classroom, count the kids and cast a thought that statistics tell us that a quarter of them will suffer abuse.

And what about the children being trafficked into our country for prostitution. This weekend there will be kids in ireland who will be used for sex. Let's protest about that

did the guards not fairly recently produce a report which showed trafficking was not an issue here

Pottler

Bollox to the Idea that Ireland has a correct attitude to child abuse. It does not. It has a severely weird attitude to it. I live in a fairly small community, within that community is a person who was convicted of abusing his niece(9) and served jail time. That is unusual enough(the convicted bit), but, that person is still spoken to, treated as a good but misunderstood man with "a funny auld head on him". Personally, I regard him as a cnut, and quite freely share my view with him to his face-I do not give him the time of day and would gladly re-arrange his features if he attempted to so much as speak to me. To me he is the lowest of the low and I would prefer if he were to vanish off the face of the earth. If it were a child of mine, that would also be 110% fully assured. His brother, the childs father, still interacts with him as if nothing happened
Sadly, there are also 2 other men in the area that have been charged/convicted of child abuse(sexual) who are also still accepted and interacted with as "good lads"?????. WTF.
I lived for a good while abroad and had a lot of Asian friends - a man was found to be abusing his nephew and within hours of the fact emerging, the father of the child and his brothers had removed the offending item from the abusers person so that the abuse could never be repeated. I'm a fan of that. If that was the Irish attitude, a lot of lads would be walking around a few ounces lighter and an awful lot of other lads would think loong and hard about wether that was a fate they fancied for themselves, no matter what their sexual predilictions might be. It is waay too well accepted here and "treatment" is not required. Rigorous punishment is a better deterrent. Personally, I would use a blunt bolt cutter and travel nationwide to offer the service. I fcuking hate people who defile kids - kids are precious and should be nurtured and helped grow, not toyed with by cnuts who should have better things to be doing. Since the child abuse scandal became public (the church branch of paedophaelia inc I mean), I have not darkened the door nor spoken to a single priest. They are dead to me. They are also dead to my wallet which stings them more than that of most who leave the church. I give elsewhere these days.

Doc Ruby

bee_keeper wrote: »

did the guards not fairly recently produce a report which showed trafficking was not an issue here

Lets not be bringing facts into the hate-in. Despite the prevalence of paedophilia in countries like the UK, France and Germany as reported in scientific studies, the same studies where Ireland ranked bottom of the table.

Pottler

Doc Ruby wrote: »

Lets not be bringing facts into the hate-in. Despite the prevalence of paedophilia in countries like the UK, France and Germany as reported in scientific studies, the same studies where Ireland ranked bottom of the table.

It's not just an Irish thing, It's a people thing. Abusing kids should be universally unacceptable, it's not at the moment, that's a sad thing. The Church is moral guide to a lot of people, it's a pretty fecked compass at the moment.

Doc Ruby

Pottler wrote: »

It's not just an Irish thing, It's a people thing. Abusing kids should be universally unacceptable, it's not at the moment, that's a sad thing.

What planet are you living on. Of course its unacceptable. No rational human being could possibly accept child abuse, and the sorry attempts to paint Irish people as more accepting of child abuse than others in this thread has completely backfired, painting the authors in a very dubious light indeed. And I quote yourself:

Pottler wrote: »

Bollox to the Idea that Ireland has a correct attitude to child abuse. It does not.

Yes it does, half baked anecdotes notwithstanding.

Pottler

Doc Ruby wrote: »

What planet are you living on. Of course its unacceptable. No rational human being could possibly accept child abuse, and the sorry attempts to paint Irish people as more accepting of child abuse than others in this thread has completely backfired, painting the authors in a very dubious light indeed. And I quote yourself:


Yes it does, half baked anecdotes notwithstanding.

No, it's not unnacceptable Doc, old bean. It seems to be very acceptable and bloody prevalent. If it was unnacceptable, the judiciary, the Gardai and the State would act very differently, so, with respect, p1ss off.:)

Doc Ruby

Pottler wrote: »

No, it's not unnacceptable Doc, old bean. It seems to be very acceptable and bloody prevalent. If it was unnacceptable, the judiciary, the Gardai and the State would act very differently, so, with respect, p1ss off.:)

When 54,274,002 queries from 214 different countries doesn't convince people, you know you're talking to a bigot. So no, I don't think I will piss off. I think I'll stick around and continue to highlight your bigotry for the edification and entertainment of all and sundry observers.

Wibbs

Doc Ruby wrote: »

Lets not be bringing facts into the hate-in. Despite the prevalence of paedophilia in countries like the UK, France and Germany as reported in scientific studies, the same studies where Ireland ranked bottom of the table.

Indeed. We do like to whip ourselves a tad too much for my liking. Yes we have abuse and yes there is more to do as far as stamping it out, helping victims and jailing abusers, but we're not close to the worst we paint ourselves as.

Ditto for the "Paedo Priest/damn the Catholic church/they're all kiddie fiddlers you know" ballsology. Again yes there was and is a large problem within that organisation and yes it needs to be brought to light and dealt with, however they're not the only boogieman out there, not by a long shot. All denominations and faiths have this issue. Christian, Jew, Muslim, etc. The beady eye just hasn't been swiveled as much towards them and they haven't become a lazy meme. That meme is particularly strong in this country. Naturally as we were cassocked too long as a nation and I'm well glad that's not the case today. That said there is the sense of collective guilt and again whipping ourselves when we come out with these lazy memes. The church has become for many the whipping boy for all our past collective stupidity. And it's trendy. We're also quick to forget the many many thousands of Irish religious types who went on "the missions" at home and abroad that did huge good. There are many Africans and other folks around the world that are alive and educated today because of that generation and many are still out there in the trenches when the Bonos and Geldofs go home.

bee_keeper

Wibbs wrote: »

Indeed. We do like to whip ourselves a tad too much for my liking. Yes we have abuse and yes there is more to do as far as stamping it out, helping victims and jailing abusers, but we're not close to the worst we paint ourselves as.

Ditto for the "Paedo Priest/damn the Catholic church/they're all kiddie fiddlers you know" ballsology. Again yes there was and is a large problem within that organisation and yes it needs to be brought to light and dealt with, however they're not the only boogieman out there, not by a long shot. All denominations and faiths have this issue. Christian, Jew, Muslim, etc. The beady eye just hasn't been swiveled as much towards them and they haven't become a lazy meme. That meme is particularly strong in this country. Naturally as we were cassocked too long as a nation and I'm well glad that's not the case today. That said there is the sense of collective guilt and again whipping ourselves when we come out with these lazy memes. The church has become for many the whipping boy for all our past collective stupidity. And it's trendy. We're also quick to forget the many many thousands of Irish religious types who went on "the missions" at home and abroad that did huge good. There are many Africans and other folks around the world that are alive and educated today because of that generation and many are still out there in the trenches when the Bonos and Geldofs go home.

for decades , the church filled the role the state didnt want when it came to educating children and running the health service

now the church is filling the role of scapegoat for every screw up the state health service makes , even when the discussion is about kids dieing in the care of the HSE , the church somehow gets blamed

priests = fair game

social workers = secular saints

Pottler

Funny how, having never mentioned Priests as abusers, suddenly I'm a bigot. I mentioned men who are not priests by any long shot, just ordinary working men. I said the Church was a moral compass(which is fair enough, no?) and it's example to ordinary people was not the best. I don't really care wether abusers wear dog-collars or not, my issue with the Church is its attitude of cover up and hide.
No doubt some proportion of paedophiles are attracted to organisations like the Church.It is then for that organisation to root them out and co-operate with prosecution. My issue with child molesters is that they are, ermm, child molesters. Anyway, I'm leaving this as I'll end up banned, I have issues with child abusers, mainly because I have children and am protective of them but also because I had to deal with paedophile predators myself when I was a kid, I was never abused, but not for lack of their trying. I was lucky I was a tough little sh1t but some of my peers were not. I may be biased.

steddyeddy

jank wrote: »

Is there proof of that?

Child abuse is not an Irish only phenomena. Sure, the revelations of the abuse of the RCC has lifted the lid on the conspiracy of lies and cover ups for the best part of 50 years. However, now that the state has by all intents of purposes taken over from the church the care of children from difficult backgrounds things have not changed at all. So what now?

Irish people like to point the finger and blame something or someone but the truth is a lot closer to home. We are closed minded when it comes to this issue, abuse is much more wide spread than one would suspect. Remember, the vast amount of abuse occurs between family members. These are usually nameless people who do not grab the headlines as much it would do if the church or the state were the main culprits. To accept this fact is a step in the right direction.

Yes, we are in denial to an extent. Until we recognise the true nature of the problem it will always be thus.

Hey sorry for the absense from the thread I was up to my eyes in work. I actually didnt start this thread for me. I met up with a girl I knew the night when I posted this. I didnt know but she had been a victim of abuse and It all came out in a conversation we had Thursday night. She detailed to me similar experiences I had the gaurds not acting on it ect. The difference Is I was lucky enough not to be in care.

You asked for proof that Ireland is particularly bad for child abuse. In my view it is and as for lack of proof? You can blame the lack of statistics for the amount of abuse reports thats were lost or not dealt with by the state. How can there be proof if the gaurds dont record victim statements.

steddyeddy

Monty Burnz wrote: »

What do you expect 'the majority' to do? Kick down doors at random in case something is going on behind them?

All we can do is trust that our elected government puts the structures and resources in place to protect children, and kick up a fuss if that doesn't seem to be happening.

Becuase theres report after report made to offical bodies that are ignored how else can victims of abuse feel?

steddyeddy

biko wrote: »

Woah, hold on there with your loaded questions, claiming all Irish people agree with child abuse.
Just because it's high on your agenda doesn't mean it will be high on everyone's agenda. There are many problems and things wrong with today's society and not everyone will focus on what you personally deem important.

But hold on Biko. The fact that child abuse is happening in this country and isnt being dealt with should be high on anyones agenda. Not for victims of abuse but for future victims of abuse and the future of our children.

steddyeddy

Doc Ruby wrote: »

Looking back over the thread it may not be an actual trolling attempt but that's still a hell of thing to say.

Sorry If it came across as a trolling attempt It wasnt meant so and Im sorry If I caused anyone offence. Saying the Irish state dont care about child abuse would have been more apropriate.

AudreyHepburn

steddyeddy wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2012/0621/breaking3.html

Children in care are dying. Children in the care of the catholic church have died, have been tortured, have been raped. I was a victim of an abusive houshold and in later in care before I escaped. I dont get why the people of ireland think abuse towards kids is ok. I say that because the same crap is going on again and again. I know victims of abuse that the gaurds are stilll ignoring, that the hse are ignoring, This is still going on. my question is why dont irish people think child abuse is wrong?

I think OP you'll find that we do think it's wrong, that we are appalled and disgusted by any kind abuse towards children.

Sadly it just isn't a simple matter of removing the child from the abusive environment and locking the perpatriator(s) up. Perhaps it should be but it just isn't and that is the fault of the state, not the people.

Truely sorry for what happened to you but please OP don't think that no-one cares.

steddyeddy

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

I think OP you'll find that we do think it's wrong, that we are appalled and disgusted by any kind abuse towards children.

Sadly it just isn't a simple matter of removing the child from the abusive environment and locking the perpatriator(s) up. Perhaps it should be but it just isn't and that is the fault of the state, not the people.

Truely sorry for what happened to you but please OP don't think that no-one cares.

Thanks audrey I dont think no one in Irekand cares I just put the opening post in a really stupid way. I have met fantastic people in this country who have helped me a lot through hard times.

Burt Lancaster

Ireland = denial, always has . . . always will

paddyandy

Try stepping into any family situation where any kind of abuse is taking place is inviting big trouble ......and you are on your own .....in Ireland even the brave stay away .
It is the vogue at the moment to say nothing good about anybody in Authority or just a token amount in a gesture of grudging agreement and that is all .How in such a climate are people to tackle family problems when sniping has become a national pastime at almost every effort made .

steddyeddy

Fizzlesque wrote: »

As Pushtrak asked, what do you think should be done? I don't know what should be done - that doesn't mean I don't think child abuse is wrong, I most definitely do.

Child abuse doesn't only happen in care - it happens in family homes too. Happened in my childhood home (physical, emotional and mental abuse - not sexual) and my siblings and I have often wondered why nobody [apart from one grandmother, who did the best she could in her limited due to ill health and being house-bound capacity] noticed, or cared enough to act, if they did notice.

It has been my experience that professional mental health help for damaged children is very poor in this country. I sought help in my early twenties, for extreme anxiety and was referred to a day hospital which was completely pointless, for me. When I left, on the third day, the doctor said "I've no problem with you leaving, as far as I'm concerned you're of totally sound mind" and the nurse said "it's a pity you're leaving, you're great at getting the other patients to open up"

All of which was no use to me - being articulate and prepared to discuss painful issues meant the doctor thought I was fine to deal with everything by myself and the nurse wanted me to act as some sort of counsellor for the other patients, who, to be quite frank, were more mentally impaired than emotionally damaged. In the end I managed to get a free 2-hour therapy session with Barnardos, because I'd placed my child for adoption and qualified for this therapy under the single mother banner.

More than 20 years on, I've slowly managed to haul myself out of the pit of despair my bad childhood and loss of my child dragged me into, by paying for therapy here and there, and embarking on lots of my own too-many-bottles-of-wine therapy.

I don't know what the answer is, I wish I did. To this day when I hear a parent shout at their five year old child "you're just a stupid selfish fukcing cnut" (something I've heard far too often) I want to intervene and plead with them not to verbally abuse their child like that, but all that's likely to happen is their abusive tirade will be turned on me.

I can't read stories of child abuse without tears welling up - but nor can I read stories of animal abuse without tears welling up. I'm very sensitive to the issue of abuse, which probably rules me out of ever being objective enough to know what's too much (in terms of levels of abuse) and what warrants intervention and what steps should be taken to remedy this sad situation.

Which brings me back to Pushtrak's question, which is also one of my own: what do you think should be done?

Hey Fizzlesque my abuse didnt happen in care It was in the home aswell and you experiences are echoed by my own. Im very sorry to read about your experiences and your lack of help in having a decent recovery.

Your post hits on what we can do. I understand its hard to break the cycle of child abuse and to prevent it in the first place. My major problem wouldnt be with prevention measures but after care. Social workers work very hard to ensure that kids are looked after and sometimes through administration their lost in the system.

Where I see the problem with attitudes towards child abuse is the after care abuse victims have recieved from the state. The vicitms I know didnt get justice nor did they have get the help they should have in life. Im very lucky as I got a good education but many have been let down severly. My point is many victims of abuse have been had the rest of their lives ruined because of it. The government should help these people get on their feet and rebuild their lives by providing funds for education or whatever they need to rebuild.

Madam_X

Why would Irish people have a worse attitude than people anywhere else? Bringing a nationality angle in is unfair and scapegoating IMO. Most people abhor child abuse. There are countries though where it's virtually endemic - child soldiers, child prostitutes, child labourers, slaves, because of monsters having too much power and their minions being poor and uneducated. Ireland has nothing on those places.

If there was suspected abuse going on here, I'm confident there would be concerns raised.

There is certainly no denial. If there is abuse being hidden, the fault lies with the abusers, not people who know nothing about it.

steddyeddy

Onixx wrote: »

Why would Irish people have a worse attitude than people anywhere else? Bringing a nationality angle in is unfair and scapegoating IMO. Most people abhor child abuse. There are countries though where it's virtually endemic - child soldiers, child prostitutes, child labourers, slaves, because of monsters having too much power and their minions being poor and uneducated. Ireland has nothing on those places.

If there was suspected abuse going on here, I'm confident there would be concerns raised.

There is certainly no denial. If there is abuse being hidden, the fault lies with the abusers, not people who know nothing about it.

Well I should have said the state doesnt have a great attitude to child abuse. Im sure most people abhor child abusers but that doesnt mean the state has helped the victims of abuse.

As far as suspected abuse as I have said I have friends who told gaurds and nothing was done so Im definatly not confident in that regard. Abuse isnt being hidden if people aproach the gaurds or social protection and nothing is doen. In that case abuse is being ignored.

Madam_X

There is something rotten in state apparatuses so.

steddyeddy

Onixx wrote: »

There is something rotten in state apparatuses so.

Somethings rotten in the state of denmark and Im going to take out the trash