Jimmy Carr tax dodger - would you do the same?

El Guapo!

I have to laugh at the high horse brigade in here. Fair enough if he did something illegal to avoid paying tax then he's in the wrong and should be punished. But he didn't. He was well within his rights to do what he did so its not his fault, it's the systems fault.
I guarantee if anyone of the posters in here became a millionaire tomorrow NONE of them would say "You know what? I don't think I pay enough tax. I think I'll pay more out of the goodness of my heart"

bnt

I think there is something of an ethical* argument in favour of paying your way. Carr attended state-funded Grammar Schools as a kid, then Cambridge University, so he and his Irish parents enjoyed the benefits of living in the UK.

The thing is: he also worked for years before finding success as a comedian, and only joined the K2 scheme relatively recently. Up to that point, he did pay his share of tax; I don't know how much, exactly, but I doubt that he still owes the UK government anything by now, no matter how you reckon it. Past a certain point, taxation switches from "pay your way" to "take advantage of your success".

* not "moral", David - learn the difference. "Morals" are imposed by authority, while Ethics are a voluntary agreement between you and your peers.

Fishooks12

Fishooks12 wrote: »

It's people like you, with this attitude, that has our country ****ed

People availing of legal tax reliefs have our county f***ed? That's absolute nonsense and you know that well.

Are you telling me that you don't/wouldn't avail of any tax relief/loophole which is/became available which allowed you to pay less tax?

Sure why don't you give up your tax credits and bow to the almighty tax man.

prinz wrote: »

...and before you know it we'd be an economic powerhouse like Greece.

You cant compare a country where nobody paid any tax mostly illegally to people availing of legal tax relief/avoidance opportunities.

mike65

banquet wrote: »

This is a total joke. If anything, this has done society a service because it has raised the profile of something that politicians need to legislate for. It is their duty to make sure the law requires people to pay tax.

As it happens thee dodgy off-shore accounting practices are under the microscope right now and HMCR have got something called GAAR on the way

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/news/news-211111.htm
http://sbnca.wordpress.com/2012/06/19/jimmy-carr-tax-avoider-would-the-gaar-catch-the-k2-tax-scheme/

Real Life

he was right to do it, he shouldnt have to apologise

Real Life

Real Life wrote: »

he was right to do it, he shouldnt have to apologise

To be honest I'd have given to fingers to anyone asking me to apologise.

hooradiation

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar wrote: »

the underlying issue of people being entitled to keep money they earned?

Or the one where, in america at least, the rate of tax on the very wealthy is at the lowest it's been in decades and the country has a large deficit?

You know, the not retarded conclusion a person could draw by paying attention for more than half a second?

c_man

mike65 wrote: »

Maybe we should all adopt a pro-rata payment based on Jimmy Carrs tax liability and then close the country down.

Isn't that what the Shinners have been trying to do with claiming all the Westminster benefits etc.?

The New Phase of the Struggle - Screw John Bull for every penny

davet82

Peter Melodic Scabby wrote: »

To be honest I'd have given to fingers to anyone asking me to apologise.

he may aswel give the fingers to his career while he's at then

davet82

davet82 wrote: »

he may aswel give the fingers to his career while he's at then

Do you really think enough people actually care to end his career. Its only a hand full (relatively speaking) of fools who even batted an eye lid once they saw it was legal.

My name is URL

Give him a break. He was just following somebody else's advice

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HXibReHW3UA

davet82

Peter Melodic Scabby wrote: »

Do you really think enough people actually care to end his career. Its only a hand full (relatively speaking) of fools who even batted an eye lid once they saw it was legal.

i'm not so sure, the english tabliods love nothing more than a fall from grace, if the english public buy into it is another question though, its the hypocrisy of some of his material that will annoy people

Jester252

It was bad timing for this to come out. While not illegal the celebrity not paying proper taxes in this day and age does piss a lot of people off. It would have blown over if it came out during a boom but now it different.
Now when Jimmy Carr makes a joke about the government or taxes I well feel the same way when McSavage does it

aido179

davet82 wrote: »

he may *as well give the fingers to his career while he's at then

There's no such thing as bad publicity.

ITT: butt-hurt high-horse citizens vs The the few who care to comment on the fact that this is a non-story. (I hate that term "non-story")

It's true this country has had its fair share of financial corruptness, but it isn't individuals like Carr, or in fact any politician you care to mention, who brought the country down. Unless you count the inaction of politicians who didn't legislate against allowing the building boom to happen, which at the time, brought a huge amount of jobs + cash flow to the country. [I should clarify that the only reason I mention politicians is that someone else did earlier...I know Carr is a comedian and not political]

davet82

aido179 wrote: »

There's no such thing as bad publicity.

Tell that to Gary Glitter :P

ejmaztec

I think it's a safe bet that companies like Specsavers, based in the Channel Islands, make Jimmy Carr's tax-saving look like a speck of chickenfeed.

jimmurt

Morally wrong my b*llix. And Lily Allen's tweet saying it's 100 times worse than benefit cheats is complete rubbish.

I'd use a scheme like this if possible. If I were convinced my tax euros were being spent in the right places I wouldn't but that's not the case.

If people were given a choice of two tax bands how many would choose the higher one as chossing the lower one would be 'morally wrong'.

SafeSurfer

The double standards when it comes to taxation in this country really makes me laugh.

Google for example pays an effective tax rate of 2.4% by using various "legal" tricks and transfers.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-10-21/google-2-4-rate-shows-how-60-billion-u-s-revenue-lost-to-tax-loopholes.html

Facebook, Microsoft etc use similar tax avoidance schemes.

Remember also that because the vast majority of their products are exported there is no VAT benefit to the Irish state from many of these multinationals who are fawned over by every state agency.

Pay role taxes and local rates are almost their sole contribution, with the added spinoffs to the local economy.

Compare this with say an Irish plumber who has to register for VAT before his turnover reaches even the average industrial wage.

I have said it before and I will say it again.

Why are ordinary Irish taxpayers subsidising the multi billion dollar repatriated profits of multinational companies?

The beneficiaries of these subsidies are the shareholders of these corporations who are largely already wealthy investors.

Why has there not been a universal social charge on corporate profits or a minimum tax rate for companies?

Why should low paid Irish workers subsidise the incomes of already wealthy investors in foreign countries?

faceman

Taxing the last euro that I earn at 52% is unethical.

Legally managing your finances to minimise the tax you pay is not unethical.

IMO

Unfortunately PAYE workers will never have that luxury.

Lord Bafford

What about all the rebels refusing to pay the household charge?

Tax-dodging *****s!:pac:

davet82

They need to close these loopholes. Its bad for soceity.

M cebee

off the wall completely,the british pm having a go at jimmy carr for tax avoidance

Hypocrisy -yes

It'll rebound on him anyhow

ballsymchugh

faceman wrote: »

Taxing the last euro that I earn at 52% is unethical.

Legally managing your finances to minimise the tax you pay is not unethical.

IMO

Unfortunately PAYE workers will never have that luxury.

self employed people will never have the luxury of paid holidays, sick pay etc either.

it's also a bit much the 'morally wrong' soundbite from cameron, given that the tory government changed the inheritance tax laws leaving the chancellor george osbourne in line for a substantial inheritance himself

No.3 George Osborne- £4.3 Million

Shadow Chancellor

HIS dad Sir Peter co-founded luxury wallpaper and fabrics company Osborne & Little. George has a trust of 15 per cent and stands to inherit a substantial share.

In 2003, when the firm delisted from the London Stock Exchange, it was valued at £12.9m.

George and wife Frances have a home in London's Notting Hill worth around £1.8m and a constituency property (£500k). Her father is life peer Howell of Guildford, a former Minister in Margaret Thatcher's cabinet.

livinonaprayer

I feel that Carr is getting punished too harshly for this, I mean I'm not a millionaire but if I was, and a man told me I could keep my money safe from funding Iraq wars etc then I'd probably do it.

Comedian Jimmy Carr faces merciless teasing from his 8 Out Of 10 Cats team-mates after dominating the headlines this week over his tax affairs.

Carr will front the Channel 4 comedy panel game for the first time since the news broke about him using a complex scheme to avoid paying HM Revenue and Customs.

Team captain Sean Lock wades in by telling Carr: "We all like to put a bit of money away for a rainy day, don't we? But I think you're more prepared than Noah."

When he heard Carr was on the front pages of newspapers, Lock joked that he feared much worse. He said: "I was expecting to see one of those white police tents in the background and a copper holding a laptop in a see-through carrier bag."

Carr, whose tax affairs drew a string of criticism including from David Cameron, said: "I've been dishing it out for years, it's about time I got some."

Source

davet82

i'd also like to point out to 'its not illiegal so its ok' brigade that just because something isn't illegal dosen't make it right either

i'm not attacking jimmy here, i just think the system is a really crappy one and needs to be fixed and fairer

kfallon

Does anyone even watch that shite?

brummytom

David Cameron's father ran a network of offshore investment funds to help build the family fortune that paid for the prime minister's inheritance, the Guardian can reveal.

Though entirely legal, the funds were set up in tax havens such as Panama City and Geneva, and explicitly boasted of their ability to remain outside UK tax jurisdiction.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2012/apr/20/cameron-family-tax-havens?fb_action_ids=10151057597074973,10150909784813736&fb_action_types=news.reads&fb_source=other_multiline

Is it still morally repugnant, Dave?


I feel sorry for Jimmy Carr. Cameron et al. have gone after him because he's small fry, their mates have been getting away with it on a far, far bigger scale for years.

If it's that bad, make it illegal. If not, shut the fuck up.

K-9

I'd try and cut my tax bill but paying that little is taking the piss a bit.

I also wouldn't moan about Barclays paying little and mock the solicitors involved in coming up with these schemes, while availing of similar myself! Bit hypocritical and a dodgy high horse even for me.

Agricola

I wonder would Cameron come out and name check another Eton oldboy who happened to be heading a corporate bank, if he was found to be doing some creative accounting like Jimmy Carr... Easy pickings again.

He hasnt under declared, he hasnt reneged on paying tax owed, hes no Mick Wallace. Most people would only love to be in the position where they could make the choice he did.

biko

If I was making a ton of money I'd probably use a tax accountant too. If only...

srsly78

faceman wrote: »

Taxing the last euro that I earn at 52% is unethical.

Legally managing your finances to minimise the tax you pay is not unethical.

IMO

Unfortunately PAYE workers will never have that luxury.

PAYE Directors disagree :pac:

Kess73

Agricola wrote: »

I wonder would Cameron come out and name check another Eton oldboy who happened to be heading a corporate bank, if he was found to be doing some creative accounting like Jimmy Carr... Easy pickings again.

He hasnt under declared, he hasnt reneged on paying tax owed, hes no Mick Wallace. Most people would only love to be in the position where they could make the choice he did.

David Cameron showed his own double standards last night. He was very quick to single out Carr and pass comment on him in public, but last night it turned out that Gary Barlow, a friend of Cameron and a very public backer of David Cameron's political party, has been quite creative with his own finances and David Cameron when asked said he would not comment on another person's business in public.

Guess it was wrong in Cameron's eyes for Carr to do it, but it was fine when Gary Barlow did it, and it was fine when David Cameron's father did it.

Keyzer

Green Diesel wrote: »

I feel a sense of responsibility to pay tax. I've been educated by the state to MSc. level, at very little cost to me personally and I'd like to pay my fellow citizens back.

You should consider a career in comedy yourself with material like this...

DEFTLEFTHAND

Green Diesel wrote: »

I feel a sense of responsibility to pay tax. I've been educated by the state to MSc. level, at very little cost to me personally and I'd like to pay my fellow citizens back.

Thats very admirable.

purplepanda

There's a difference between reducing your tax bill & paying just 1%. Any fool can see that is totally immoral for a weathy individual to pay this paltry amount when most people are on PAYE & self emplyoyed schemes & have little chance of reducing their tax burden at all. :mad:

However these loopholes are allowed by the establishment, both in Ireland & Britain, so that politicans & their friends can avail of the opportunities. Even Ken Livingstone had his London Mayor salary paid into a composite company, campange socialist style!!!

When cunning accountants use the same loopholes for celebrties & sports stars to expolit, the politicans are enranged :rolleyes:

As I said reducing your tax liablity is one thing, I had my salary going through an Isle Of Man composite company many, many years ago. My payments were reduced by half & I paid 12.5% IOM tax plus a "service fee" so saved 45% in tax. I've never even been to the IOM! :pac:

I don't personally feel guilty about it, but if it had been 1% instead I wouldn't have got involved.

The very day a group of taxpayers on PAYE manage to substantially reduce their tax liability by such means, you can be assured that emergency legislation would be enacted overnight to close such an opportunity!!!!

BBC24news last night mentioned that 40 billion sterling a year in potential revenue is lost by various forms of tax avoidance :eek:. Yet another 2400 revenue staff are now being made redundant.........!!! :mad:

senordingdong

smash wrote: »

why apologise when it's a legal scheme?

The only reason that can be offered for his apology is that he took a serious stab at others who use similar schemes, like Barclays bank for example.

I'm inclined to think that he was right to do what he did.
Nevermind the fact that was legal but if you feel you are being overcharged for something, what is the solution?.....take it to the competitor.

Sir Oxman

Defence of Carr and Barlow is equal to defending and approving of the 'Golden Circle' that have raped this country and many others.
How anyone can think paying 1% tax is fair when the vast unwashed pay up to 40%+ is mind boggling.
Nevermind that you'd do the same if you were earning millions/billions, it simply isn't fair and is at the heart of what's wrong with the monetary system and governance.

The more you have the more you want rules, ie GREED.

ctrl-alt-delete

Don't like the way he was singled out by Cameron, with a bit of luck somebody is digging for some 'morally wrong' dealings by Cameron himself, shouldn't be too hard to find something.

Ellis Dee

Would I do the same as Carr? Sadly, I have to admit that I well might. I'm far from perfect and the temptations of greed are mighty hard to fight off.:eek:

But, I fear I'd find it hard to look at myself in the mirror from then on. I hope the same applies to Carr if he has any residual sense of shame left.:rolleyes:

senordingdong

gambiaman wrote: »

Defence of Carr and Barlow is equal to defending and approving of the 'Golden Circle' that have raped this country and many others.
How anyone can think paying 1% tax is fair when the vast unwashed pay up to 40%+ is mind boggling.
Nevermind that you'd do the same if you were earning millions/billions, it simply isn't fair and is at the heart of what's wrong with the monetary system and governance.

The more you have the more you want rules, ie GREED.

The difference is that Carr and Barlow did not rape their country or anyone elses.
Why should they, or anyone, pay that much tax? To pay the IMF, to pay Mary Harneys pension, to pay RTEs deficit?
They saw a legal and legitimate scheme, and got on it.

relax carry on

For me it pretty much comes down to this simplistic view; in agreeing to be part of a society you agree to fund that society through your taxes both direct and indirect. Using tax avoidance schemes reduces your contribution to the society you are a part of.

Personally I find tax avoidance to be more reprehensible than tax evasion. At least with tax evasion the taxpayer or rather non-taxpayer, is honest with themselves about their dishonesty.

Legal tax avoidance schemes in both the UK and Ireland were created by politicians, some I'm sure with some misguided notion that they were doing good but most just for lobbyists, vested interests etc. The majority inevitably end up being abused and it takes some doing to close them down.

riclad

I think immoral to live in a country ,earn millions and avoid paying tax .The roads ,services and hospitals are paid for by taxes , i,m sure when he was growing up he used public services ,schools etc
But a whole system has grown up in the uk ,and the us,which enables corporations to reduce their tax bill ,route their profits thru luxemburg and various countrys .
The corporation tax rate doesnt mean much ,when theres so many legal ways to avoid paying tax.
Theres articles about apple, it pays a low rate of tax because it uses
various legal schemes to route profits to various countrys.
Hes doing us a favour because he show s us how easy it is for the rich to avoid paying tax ,while joe bloggs on paye has little choice in what he pays.
Many us corporation s are paying low tax,while employing people on
work experience on very low wages for 6 months.
Many rich people have said i,d like to pay more tax , my secretary pays more tax than me.
The uk government is actually giving health contracts to companys
who are notorious for using tax shelters to pay the bare minimum
uk tax.

If the uk government wants to close most of the loopholes its easy to do so.
Even u2 route their income thru a dutch company in order to
pay a lower rate of tax.

Sir Oxman

senordingdong wrote: »

The difference is that Carr and Barlow did not rape their country or anyone elses.
Why should they, or anyone, pay that much tax? To pay the IMF, to pay Mary Harneys pension, to pay RTEs deficit?
They saw a legal and legitimate scheme, and got on it.

They are one and the same, paying 1% tax is in no way fair or right.
What do you mean why should they or anyone pay that much tax?
'They' don't that's the point, the rest of us do.

Gandhi

Every year I do my taxes and when I get a number at the end I either apply for the refund I am entitled to (not one penny less) or send the check for the amount I am obliged to pay (not one penny more). Why on earth would anybody else do anything different? Is there anyone posting on here who habitually throws the government a few extra grand out of the goodness of their hearts at tax time?

The politicians' comments drive me crazy. Instead of falling over each other to criticize Carr they should be falling over each other to apologize to their constituents for presiding over a taxation system that has millionaires getting laughably small tax bills.

At least when Warren Buffett came out with a statement a few years ago that he paid tax at half the rate of his secretary, the US politicians (the democrats at least) were criticizing the system instead of Buffett himself, and coming up with ways to close the loophole. Not that they ever did much more than talking about it at the end.

IvySlayer

How many people slating Jimmy Carr actually paid their House tax...

Max_Charger

Anyone else watching 8 out of 10 cats? I'd say their viewing figures are fairly healthy this evening. They are proper ripping into him :pac:

cruiser178

Max_Charger wrote: »

Anyone else watching 8 out of 10 cats? I'd say their viewing figures are fairly healthy this evening. They are proper ripping into him :pac:

very funny, well worth turning over to it

PickledLime

Green Diesel wrote: »

I feel a sense of responsibility to pay tax. I've been educated by the state to MSc. level, at very little cost to me personally and I'd like to pay my fellow citizens back.

That doesn't happen any more, unfortunately (good on ya for having a moral obligation though, a lot of people don't).

B.A._Baracus

On one hand Jimmy Carr is right. No one wants to pay taxes and if there is a legal loop hole to get around this, why not take it.

On the other hand ... Governments are taxing the average joe to the hilt. While Carr, a rich man, isnt even paying a standard amount.

But thats life I guess.

senordingdong

Do ANY of yous feel like you are getting value for money in this society?