NTA launches beta version of the National Journey Planner

Stevek101

bk wrote: »

The new journey planner? No it isn't, certainly doesn't match the RTPI data on the DB iPhone app.

Oh jayzus, you're right. Its totally wrong! The only feature I thought was half useful is pointless... :rolleyes:

Victor

bk wrote: »

But no comment on the planner not using RTPI data for DB, that seems like a real failing to me.

Apologies, when I said RTPI, I meant historic AVLS data.

Hungerford

It's horrendous. I took Drogheda to Bray as an example. It basically offers me two types of trip - a taxi or a bus journey involving multiple changes. Nowhere does it offer me the option of taking a train, even though both locations host major railway stations.

The journey times are also farcically optimistic for peak times.

Hungerford

Drogheda to Belfast is even better. The site offers you a three-hour odyssey involving getting a bus to Dublin and then getting a bus to Belfast. I wouldn't mind but (a) there are direct bus services and (b) there is a major intercity line running between both locations.

Hungerford

It actually seems to have some bug regarding Drogheda. It doesn't seem to recognise the railway running through the town.

Drogheda to Sligo is a five-hour epic involving:

- A bus to Drumcondra
- A bus to Dublin City Centre [why?]
- Then the Luas from Abbey Street to Connolly
- Then finally the Dublin-Sligo train

Victor

Hungerford wrote: »

It's horrendous. I took Drogheda to Bray as an example. It basically offers me two types of trip - a taxi or a bus journey involving multiple changes. Nowhere does it offer me the option of taking a train, even though both locations host major railway stations.

What time of day - 1am?

Part of the problem is where in Drogheda and Bray - the default location it picks are Patrick Street (1820m from train station) in Drogheda and Main Street / Vevay Road in Bray. In the time it takes to walk from Patrick Street to Drogheda station, a bus or taxi will have been a long way gone on it's trip. If you select form station to station, it returns trains a lot of the time.

The journey times are also farcically optimistic for peak times.

Based on historic averages from AVLS.

Hungerford wrote: »

Drogheda to Belfast is even better. The site offers you a three-hour odyssey involving getting a bus to Dublin and then getting a bus to Belfast. I wouldn't mind but (a) there are direct bus services and (b) there is a major intercity line running between both locations.

Bus is often faster than train and definitely has better frequency. In the middle of the night, options are limited.

Hungerford wrote: »

Drogheda to Sligo is a five-hour epic involving:

- A bus to Drumcondra
- A bus to Dublin City Centre [why?]
- Then the Luas from Abbey Street to Connolly
- Then finally the Dublin-Sligo train

That is one option. Not the only one. Presumably at that time of day, it is the quickest one.

bk

Victor wrote: »

Apologies, when I said RTPI, I meant historic AVLS data.

I believe that is a big mistake and for me at least makes hittheroad much more useful. Specially as hittheroad shows you the predicted arrival time of the next few buses on the same route. Very useful, gives you a feel for the frequency of the service, which is important if you just miss the scheduled bus.

munchkin_utd

Hungerford wrote: »

It actually seems to have some bug regarding Drogheda. It doesn't seem to recognise the railway running through the town.
<snip>

The railway doesnt really run through the town.
Its a good 15 min walk from the town centre.

As a non Droghedonian (?) - if I was attempting to get to Drogheda I'd actually be appreciative of a journey planner that got me to Drogheda (town centre) as opposed to defaulting to a relatively remote station on the south eastern suburbs on the other side of the river altogether from the town.

All the journey planner does is expose that the main transport link to the town is not linked to the town by public transport.

Is that the journey planners fault OR a systematic policy failure in Irish transport planning and organisation that the rail systems in Ireland are ran in a parallel and detached universe to the rest of public transport - essentially being accessed often by private car rather than having a linked up bus service.

LXFlyer

It doesn't help that this country has no proper postcode system - that would make this so much easier.

bk

lxflyer wrote: »

It doesn't help that this country has no proper postcode system - that would make this so much easier.

Yes, I've been saying for a long time, that this is why geographic postcodes are so important.

Not just for delivering post, but to allow people to navigate quickly and easily around our country.

zagmund

I don't know if it was mentioned earlier, but it doesn't seem to prioritise roads by size or importance.

Going from Blackrock to Stillorgan it routes you up Sweetmans Avenue, into the post office/office park, out onto Carysfort Avenue, and then up Avoca & Priory to Stillorgan instead of just going up Carysfort Avenue, turning right onto Stillorgan Park and coming out at the junction with the N11 at the bowling alley.

It could even do it by N road all the way - going up Merrion Avenue (N31) and along the N11.

z

akj77

Humm, I've spent the last hour or so putting my regular routes into the Planner (I live in West Dublin but regularly commute to Cork and Galway as well as use buses etc. to get about all 3 cities) and was quite surprised by the results.
Surprised as after reading the previous posts I thought the rsults would be useless, but they were about 90% right - once I followed the twaeks in the advanced settings as recommended by ... Victor... I think? I was even more impressed that I could do this on my iPhone while travelling home!
I agree that the interface IS clunky and HAVING to tweak isn't ideal (maybe change default dwell times etc. to something more reasonable).
But I have to admit it is refreshing to have a Planner that will get me around the country and not just around Dublin or Cork - BE and Irish Rail have been the only real choices withour going to a dozens websites and doing a compare/ contrast - which is time consuming and frankly I have better things to do!
Having lived in SF and Hamburg, the timetables are not that jarring, I think the intermediate stop times for DB are a must (I rarely get on/ off at the terminus) and given the recent wobbles on my 3G access on my phone, it's nice to have a printout. I agree with a previous poster, this just proves the over=frequency of DB stops.
Overall, a great addition to the Public transport using public, but a smooter interface would be great.
So as to provide feedback of use, rather than just negativity, maybe a wizard type option - put in a from, then a destination, then a time and lastly a selection of the tweaks as an alternative to the very busy initial interface?
Not asking for much, I know!!!

Hungerford

Victor wrote: »

Part of the problem is where in Drogheda and Bray - the default location it picks are Patrick Street (1820m from train station) in Drogheda and Main Street / Vevay Road in Bray. In the time it takes to walk from Patrick Street to Drogheda station, a bus or taxi will have been a long way gone on it's trip. If you select form station to station, it returns trains a lot of the time.

I went for the morning rush hour. The choice of Patrick Street is bizarre - it's not one of the major streets in the town and it's around 500m away from the centre of the town.

Hungerford

Victor wrote: »

Bus is often faster than train and definitely has better frequency. In the middle of the night, options are limited.

I wasn't opting for the middle of the day. I chose around midday. I don't know how much the NTA are paying you but going from Drogheda to Belfast via Dublin is madness.

LXFlyer

Was that the fastest route, given none of the cross border bus services stop in Drogheda? There is a 2 hour 20 minute gap in the train service in the middle of the day - the bus may have got you there faster via the Airport or Dublin.

schemingbohemia

Hungerford wrote: »

I went for the morning rush hour. The choice of Patrick Street is bizarre - it's not one of the major streets in the town and it's around 500m away from the centre of the town.

Why not pick a street name in Drogheda? 500m isn't exactly far in the grand scheme of things. There's always a default "centre" in these things, I've tried it in other cities and the same things happen if you don't specify a street or even a number on a street - obviously post codes would help this enormously.

LXFlyer

The next train after midday would not be until 2pm. Therefore at 12pm its perfectly possible that two buses via Dublin would get you there before it.

The planner sounds like it was working correctly to me.

munchkin_utd

schemingbohemia wrote: »

Why not pick a street name in Drogheda? 500m isn't exactly far in the grand scheme of things. There's always a default "centre" in these things, I've tried it in other cities and the same things happen if you don't specify a street or even a number on a street - obviously post codes would help this enormously.

post codes wouldnt help anything

I suspect that the person giving out about the planner has a car so any specific start point is false for them as they have the flexibility to get to any transport hub easily and have the local knowledge to know if it suits them or not (magic personal acceptability filter on top of the magic carpet that brings them to any start point in a certain radius of their residence that isnt downtown drogheda)

What they really want is not how to get from a specific point on a map.
What they do want is a chart of all possible journeys emanating from anywhere in the complete Drogheda region (to what radius, northside or south side, use toll bridge or not?) using all services that bring them to a specific point somewhere else.

Or at the destination, should the journey planner magically know that the person can be collected meaning that again they arent going to a specific place but a general area?

Still, its actually a valid enough thing to want, maybe solvable with a checkbox beside the departure / arrival input box say like "Any Nearby Services (arrival or collection by own transport/ taxi)" or the likes.
This would be a useful addition for towns like Ballina / Dundalk / Drogheda / Belfast / Waterford / Cork or even Knock where the various services leave from quite different places but the exact location is of little relevance to many users from the suburbs or out of town as they are coming by car to and from the bus/ train anyhow.

devnull

Android App now out:
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.mdv.IrelandCompanion

LXFlyer

munchkin_utd wrote: »

post codes wouldnt help anything.

I can't agree. When I use the TfL planner in London, if I'm not going to/from an underground/rail station I will always use post codes - it makes searching for specific journeys that much easier.

munchkin_utd

lxflyer wrote: »

I can't agree. When I use the TfL planner in London, if I'm not going to/from an underground/rail station I will always use post codes - it makes searching for specific journeys that much easier.

My point was that having an accurate address or postocde for the start of your journey down to a square metre is worthless when someone thinks of a town as a region with multiple starting points rather than a single point on a map.

LXFlyer

Other than providing a list of potential starting points to choose from, I'd imagine that would be very difficult to do. That's precisely what the TfL planner will ask the user to choose from if a general area is entered.

munchkin_utd

lxflyer wrote: »

Other than providing a list of potential starting points to choose from, I'd imagine that would be very difficult to do. That's precisely what the TfL planner will ask the user to choose from if a general area is entered.

And this planner also does that! Type in Drogheda and you get a drop down with all the specific starting points. Ths though is not what was seemingly wanted, rather they wanted a collated regional departures info service at a specific time,

Anyhow, it's no surprise that it is the same as the tfl planner seeing as its the same company doing it!

LXFlyer

From the NTA website. Looks like some of the items wished for above are in the pipeline.

http://www.nationaltransport.ie/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/JP-Live-for-NTA-site1.doc

Ireland’s first national Journey Planner now live:
TransportforIreland.ie
 
Minister Alan Kelly TD welcomes development,
encourages public feed-back on local trip details and short-cuts
 
Door-to-door travel options across all public and licensed transport
across the country to help people plan their journeys
 
Wednesday, June 27th, 2012
 
Public and Commuter Transport Minister Alan Kelly T.D. today (June 27, 2012) announced that the National Transport Authority’s new online National Journey Planner is now live and available for use at TransportforIreland.ie or with new Apps for Android and iPhone mobile devices.  The service will help people plan their personal journeys from door-to-door, anywhere in Ireland, using public transport, and is the first of its kind in Ireland.  
 
The Planner covers bus, rail, tram, taxis, ferries and walking – 120 operators in total – with fully mapped-out route information, printable timetables and details of overall journey times – all in one place.
 
While this is a significant new step in providing the public with fully integrated and accessible transport information, the National Transport Authority is actively encouraging people to use its specially created online Feedback channel to give specific feedback around their use of the Planner, and their opinion on its “look and feel” so that the service can continue to grow and improve.  
 
The new Journey Planner takes account of over 9,600 bus stops across Ireland, 750 different routes, 152 train stations, and route and timetable information from 120 different transport providers.  The location of footpaths, laneways, short-cuts, one way systems and QBC contraflows are also taken into account in the options being suggested to users.
 
Minister Alan Kelly said: “I welcome this major new development. I would encourage people to use it and to give their feedback. For the first time there is a one-stop-shop information point for all licensed and contracted public transport providers making planning journeys much easier. It is a real step forward in integrating public transport information for users.
 
“Nothing of this scope and extent has ever been available in Ireland before; we are now one of the few countries in Europe with a multi-operator service on a national basis.  If people know of short cuts or walkways that are not covered in this map then it is important they give their feedback as the system has been developed to allow for the necessary input from the public.
 
“This Journey Planner adds to recently launched initiatives including real time information, electronic bus stop signs, the Leap card and bus fleet improvements which enhance the overall quality of public transport services.”
 
In the months ahead, the system will be integrated with the National Transport Authority’s Real Time Passenger Information service to provide immediate arrival information for all Dublin Bus and Bus Éireann stops across the country, as well as Luas and DART commuter services in Dublin.  A cycle planner is currently being developed, initially for the Greater Dublin Area, and a special accessibility feature on the site, to assist those with mobility impairment. A new feature for Tour-Buses and their routes and services will be developed.
 
Gerry Murphy, Chief Executive, National Transport Authority, said: “The National Journey Planner brings together a very complex web of timetables, routes, stations, stops and terminus locations for multiple public transport providers into a single information service for everyone to use.  People specify their origin and destination details and the time of their trip and they are given a short-list of up to six different options to get there.
 
“We have done a lot of work, incorporating all existing data-sets to bring the system to this stage, where we’re ready to present it to the public.  The next stage requires input from members of the public.  We really want to know about local walkways, links and barriers that we haven’t been able to pick up.  We want to know how people feel about using the site – is it as clear as they want?  Do they like it?  Could it be better? An important Feedback channel has been set up to capture this input on TransportforIreland.ie, and we are encouraging members of the public to tell us about anything at all that we’ve overlooked.    Our special technical team will be incorporating this important user information as they update and improve the Planner over the coming months.
 
“There are many additional services incorporated in the Journey Planner, whereby people can tailor-make journey options to suit their personal preferences. People can use the Advanced Settings feature to customise their walking time and speed, their willingness to make interchanges between services, or their preference for one travel mode over others. All operators’ timetables are available to view and print, as are descriptions and PDF maps of the walking links to services.  Major attractions across the country, including museums, historic house and gardens, and beaches are also searchable – as origins or destinations – for day-trips.”
 
The National Transport Authority is also looking at the best means of incorporating the Rural Transport Programme into the National Journey Planner.  There are currently 35 transport providers for this service. A pilot scheme is now underway with Clare Accessible Transport to test how demand responsive services can interchange with fixed route services.
 
The Authority is committed to an open approach to data, in line with the eGov Strategy 2012 and the Re-Use of PSI Directive. The best available data has been collected for use in the Journey Planner and open collaboration with the public will continue to drive that. The Authority will also offer the opportunity to the community of collaborators, designers and developers to make the most of the data available, after this public feedback phase is complete.

bk

Well lots of great news there, I'm impressed.

Great that they will have a dedicated team to take feedback from the public and to make quick changes.

Also great news on access to the data and api's for developers. May look into it myself.

One thing, they mention that they are also developing a cycling planner.

I hope that this is integrated into the journey planner.

Ideally you want to give a cycling route as one of the options. A few reasons for this:

1) A person who isn't a cyclist might see, wow it will take 1 hour by bus, but only 30 minutes by bike. Maybe I should think of taking up cycling. In other words it could help promote cycling.

2) A cyclist might enter a journey in the journey planner, see that it is longer then they want to cycle and might decide to take public transport instead.

Also Dublin bikes should really also be integrated into the journey planner.

For instance when the new Dublin bike stands are installed by Connelly and Hueston station, the journey planner should give Dublin bikes as an option to connect Connelly and Hueston, in addition Luas and Bus.

Mrs OBumble

First impressions are that the overall structure and tool looks good.
(though very green ... not sure about the aesthetics!), and there are some nice touches that I personally haven't see in other journey planning tools, eg theoption to get a PDF of all timetable info the the origin or destination, and the ability to say how long I'm prepared to walk for at either end - lack of this usually drives me mad.

But some of the underlying data/assumptions need work: eg I searched for Salthill to Merlin Park arriving by 9am on Saturday (a real query that arrived in my mailbox this morning) and

• city buses weren't mentioned at all (even though the correct answer is route 401 from Salthill to Eyre Square at 8am, then 402 from Eyre Square to Merlin Park at 8:30am)
• taxi was the 7th option - even though it's the only one that meets the day/time criteria (ie on Saturday arriving by 9am)
• options 1 - 6 were to travel the day before using regional buses (BE 424 from Salthill to town, Citylink from the coach station to GMIT) - but I'm pretty sure that neither of these services is allowed to carry passengers for the short journeys invovled.

Victor

JustMary wrote: »

But some of the underlying data/assumptions need work: eg I searched for Salthill to Merlin Park arriving by 9am on Saturday (a real query that arrived in my mailbox this morning) and

• city buses weren't mentioned at all (even though the correct answer is route 401 from Salthill to Eyre Square at 8am, then 402 from Eyre Square to Merlin Park at 8:30am)
• taxi was the 7th option - even though it's the only one that meets the day/time criteria (ie on Saturday arriving by 9am)
• options 1 - 6 were to travel the day before using regional buses (BE 424 from Salthill to town, Citylink from the coach station to GMIT) - but I'm pretty sure that neither of these services is allowed to carry passengers for the short journeys invovled.

Possibly an issue with the 401 programming.

n97 mini

Have they not spotted they've used lower case ó in IARNRóD ÉIREANN I wonder.

Holding down shift+crtl+alt+o gives Ó as in IARNRÓD ÉIREANN.

Victor

n97 mini wrote: »

Have they not spotted they've used lower case ó in IARNRóD ÉIREANN I wonder.

Holding down shift+crtl+alt+o gives Ó as in IARNRÓD ÉIREANN.

I've previously mentioned it. Also, lots of problems with apostrophe-s.

expectationlost

nope this is just painful to use, looks like something that would be made ten years, ago i though these big companies had moved on from these drab over complicated designs, think it was mistake to include the walking parts at the same level as the info your looking for

schemingbohemia

expectationlost wrote: »

nope this is just painful to use, looks like something that would be made ten years, ago i though these big companies had moved on from these drab over complicated designs, think it was mistake to include the walking parts at the same level as the info your looking for

What exactly is painful to use about it? Serious question, a bit of detail would help.

What do you mean about the "walking parts"?

I've found a few flaws, which I've fed back in on, such as it telling you to get off the 7d from Dalkey at Kill Avenue and wait 5 minutes for the next 46a which somehow beats the 7D into town even though they go the exact same route from there.

LXFlyer

That boils down to the AVLC schedules that DB drew up. The 7D and 46a may have been done by different schedulers - you'd need to look at the PDF timetable files.

SandyfordGuy

The system being used is the same as Transport for London.

The difference is London has the Tube, postcodes and better intergrated public transport network. However even there it took them a while to get that planner right, and I would suggest programming such system for Ireland has far bigger and different challenges to that of London.

Mrs OBumble

expectationlost wrote: »

nope this is just painful to use, looks like something that would be made ten years, ago i though these big companies had moved on from these drab over complicated designs, think it was mistake to include the walking parts at the same level as the info your looking for

I think that it's just that journey planners are, by nature, difficult to use.

Met one for the first time a few years back I was visiting Auckland, annoyed the living daylights out of me that the system would tell me now to get from A to B, but wouldn't show me any over-view summary info to let me make my own decisions about the best routes.

Eg if I have to choose between

• walk 5 mins south and catch bus A which runs once an hour and takes 10 minutes
• walk 10 mins east and catch bus B which runs every 10 mins and takes 12 minutes

... then I'll take the east/B option every time, because on average the trip time will be shorter, even though it may not be at the very specific time I put into the system. Yes, I'm making a manual allowance for the probability of the bus being late. And another one for the dodgy bus-stop to the south too, and the nice supermarket at the end of route B. All of which factors in to making journey planning hard.


Overall, the TFI-JP (we've gotta give it a better name!) seems to have tools to let me specify preferences around some of these factors.

IMHO, the complexity is good.

munchkin_utd

SandyfordGuy wrote: »

The system being used is the same as Transport for London.

The difference is London has the Tube, postcodes and better intergrated public transport network. However even there it took them a while to get that planner right, and I would suggest programming such system for Ireland has far bigger and different challenges to that of London.

the system originated in Munich (and the company is still based there) and there there are no street level postcodes, i.e. its the same as Dublin with a postcode for a general area.

Id say the biggest problem with the planner is the dysfunctional fractured public transport landscape they are trying to navigate us through.
It will suggest changes yet transport in ireland is NOT a network. Its a patch work as about as ugly as the ugliest one you could imagine.

There is no design or controlling or concept or plan or actually any remotest semblance of cooperation and integration between operators in a meaningful way. Not even between sister companies of CIE !!
So when the journey planner tells us to attempt an unsecured change (often with 5 minute changeover on a long distance journey) it can only spell disaster !!

Victor

munchkin_utd wrote: »

the system originated in Munich (and the company is still based there) and there there are no street level postcodes, i.e. its the same as Dublin with a postcode for a general area.

That may be fine in a single city, but isn't for a whole country where names are often re-used.

In any case, but cities probably do have full postal code, it just that they aren't published.

bk

JustMary wrote: »

Eg if I have to choose between

• walk 5 mins south and catch bus A which runs once an hour and takes 10 minutes
• walk 10 mins east and catch bus B which runs every 10 mins and takes 12 minutes

... then I'll take the east/B option every time, because on average the trip time will be shorter, even though it may not be at the very specific time I put into the system. Yes, I'm making a manual allowance for the probability of the bus being late. And another one for the dodgy bus-stop to the south too, and the nice supermarket at the end of route B. All of which factors in to making journey planning hard.

THat is what I like about hittheroad (as well as the UI that is). Hittheroad gives you more of an overview of the different options, that you can very easy switch between, to see the route on the big map and which shows the actual upcoming arrival times of each bus/luas/dart via RTPI, so you can get a feeling for the frequency of the services on each route and thus make a judgement call.

For instance one of the options might include an infrequent bus service that only comes every hour. While a further away stop might have multiple routes serving it, with high frequency.

I think hittheroad does an excellent job in this area and the UI and I hope the NTA planner can learn from it.

Alternatively hopefully hittheroad will expand to cover the whole country and all services with this new data.

bk

If people wonder why I keep banging on about the importance of making this travel data and RTPI data available via GTFS, here is an example of why. Google are rolling out a new search service called Google Now, which using GTFS data.

One example of how Google Now works. It knows from your calendar that you have an appointment across town in an hour. It will then plan your journey by car or public transport, for example giving you walking directions to the bus stop, tells you which bus to take and it's arrival time and the time you will arrive at your destination.

All of this is done automatically by Google Now in the background.

No need for you to use an awkward journey planner, it is literally integrated into your life and schedule!!

A set up like this is only possible due to cities making their travel data freely and openly available via GTFS.

schemingbohemia

bk wrote: »

If people wonder why I keep banging on about the importance of making this travel data and RTPI data available via GTFS, here is an example of why. Google are rolling out a new search service called Google Now, which using GTFS data.

One example of how Google Now works. It knows from your calendar that you have an appointment across town in an hour. It will then plan your journey by car or public transport, for example giving you walking directions to the bus stop, tells you which bus to take and it's arrival time and the time you will arrive at your destination.

All of this is done automatically by Google Now in the background.

No need for you to use an awkward journey planner, it is literally integrated into your life and schedule!!

A set up like this is only possible due to cities making their travel data freely and openly available via GTFS.

Not everyone wants Google to determine their day to day living and knowing exactly what they're up to.

bk

schemingbohemia wrote: »

Not everyone wants Google to determine their day to day living and knowing exactly what they're up to.

Agreed, but for those who don't mind, it is very good to have the option.

dowlingm

schemingbohemia wrote: »

Not everyone wants Google to determine their day to day living and knowing exactly what they're up to.

So what? We base technology on the guy with the thickest tinfoil on his hat?

schemingbohemia

dowlingm wrote: »

So what? We base technology on the guy with the thickest tinfoil on his hat?

No! And I'm definitely not one of the tin-foil hat brigade. I dislike having 1 company determining how everything is to be done though.

bk

schemingbohemia wrote: »

No! And I'm definitely not one of the tin-foil hat brigade. I dislike having 1 company determining how everything is to be done though.

Again, it is just opening up options to people who don't mind.

Better to have the option of this feature, then not at all, would you agree?

BTW I say this as someone who takes extreme steps to limit Googles access to my data, using different browsers for gmail and google search, etc. But I still think the option is a great idea.

Victor

I have more comments on the feedback, I just need time to sort them.

Victor

It seems the iPhone app is now available.‏

n97 mini

It was in the Metro a few days ago that Android and iPhone apps are now available.

The Android version is very quick, and makes the Dublin Bus RTPI app completely redundant (makes me wonder why money was spent on it in the first place). It also makes Next Bus/Train Dublin redundant too.

It still suffers from the quirky routing that the main site does.

Oh, and the Flybus route from Maynooth/Leixlip to DUB is gone again.

LXFlyer

I can't agree with that comment.

Firstly the DB app is using live data - the NTA one isn't (although this may change). It uses schedules.

Secondly I often check different stops that I've bookmarked mid-journey to see if I can make a connection - that's not really feasible using the NTA app.

The NTA app is a great addition to the range of public transport information available - it complements the other sources, but it certainly does not render them redundant.

There is a place still for live info and full timetables.

Victor

Real time will become available.

LXFlyer

It still won't render the DB app redundant though Victor.

As I say they all complement one another.

expectationlost

Victor wrote: »

I have more comments on the feedback, I just need time to sort them.

why? why you?