Who you know or what you know?

TheBody

@TheDriver:

Thanks for that. One more question for you!! Most of my teaching experience is at third level-5 years. That would be a mix of lecturing and tutoring up to Masters level in maths. At second level interviews, the principals seemed to dismiss this as if it was irrelevent. They seem to think that teaching at second level is TOTALLY different. Now, of course there are some differences (discipline being the most obvious one) but the preparation, plannning etc is much the same. In you opinion, what would be your view on somebody like me that would have a reasonable amount of teaching experience but at third level.

Oh, thanks for taking the time to answer my questions!!

TheDriver

hi again. unfortunately and you may not want to hear this, but i would not be too gone on 3rd experience because for 12-18 year olds, its a lot different classroom management than 18+ through my experience. I am sure your maths is top notch and I would give you a run but I wouldn't call you an experienced 2nd level teacher. I have thought at 18+ level and it really is a whole different world, same as below 12 is a different world again.
Sorry, maybe not what you want to hear. Same as a guy we got in with a PhD who thought he could teach us all a thing or two...........needless to say he didn't last long.

TheBody

TheDriver wrote: »

hi again. unfortunately and you may not want to hear this, but i would not be too gone on 3rd experience because for 12-18 year olds, its a lot different classroom management than 18+ through my experience. I am sure your maths is top notch and I would give you a run but I wouldn't call you an experienced 2nd level teacher. I have thought at 18+ level and it really is a whole different world, same as below 12 is a different world again.
Sorry, maybe not what you want to hear. Same as a guy we got in with a PhD who thought he could teach us all a thing or two...........needless to say he didn't last long.

Thanks for the reply. I appreciate your honesty. I agree that I am not an experienced second level teacher. Just find it odd that the third level experience seems to count for so little. At least I have one years experience at second level to appeal to.

Heydeldel

To TheDriver,

I am an NQT, just finished the PDE in May and already teaching in England. I know I'm at a disadvantage applying for jobs due to a lack of experience and not having taught leaving cert level.

Any advice for an NQT applying for jobs at home?

Fuinseog

Alqua wrote: »

(Sorry mods, don't want to derail the thread..) but am interested in this! What are people's opinions on this? I'm an NQT but have been realistic all along and the general situation and the scare stories are dragging me down a bit these days! Delta, what would you like to do if you weren't teaching? I just find from looking up (non-teaching) jobs that my qualifications are so specialised, that I'm essentially 'qualified' for nothing except teaching. Everything requires X-years experience in that area and I can't afford to work for free/re-train(?) any time soon. Do employers run a mile when they see you're a teacher? i.e. this person is going to do a runner once they find a teaching job!?

some will. I am fluent in two continental languages and wanted to get a bit of work at a call centre but could not convince them that I would stay. they know you will leave once something better comes up. why would I work for them when you get paid a lot more as a teacher, even as a sub.

TheDriver

Heydeldel wrote: »

To TheDriver,

I am an NQT, just finished the PDE in May and already teaching in England. I know I'm at a disadvantage applying for jobs due to a lack of experience and not having taught leaving cert level.

Any advice for an NQT applying for jobs at home?

well the teaching in UK is a plus on anyone else NQT.

However you would be very lucky to get any contract to be honest unless you have great subject combos. Be prepared to get your foot in the door by subbing and being kept on in a few schools and building your CV up for following years when you will be the pole position for contract jobs. However keep applying and geting interviews for a) practice and b) making an impression so you will get subbing at least.

secondary teacher

To the driver also.

I have spent the last year and a half working in a youthreach centre, but do to a number of closures in other training centres within our vec, my hours have been reduced. I am fully qualified to teach in secondary schools. My question is seeing that i would not have been teaching leaving certifitcate established or junior cert subjects for the last year and a half do you think that this might go against me when applying for secondary teaching jobs in my subject?

Postgrad10

Thank you for such a realistic and informative thread . Any way it could be made a sticky and renamed vice principal's advice for applicants ?

TheDriver

secondary teacher wrote: »

To the driver also.

I have spent the last year and a half working in a youthreach centre, but do to a number of closures in other training centres within our vec, my hours have been reduced. I am fully qualified to teach in secondary schools. My question is seeing that i would not have been teaching leaving certifitcate established or junior cert subjects for the last year and a half do you think that this might go against me when applying for secondary teaching jobs in my subject?

Hi,
Its not a long time in youthreach so I would view it as constructive and you are dealing with a hard clientele there. If you were there 5+ years then I would get suspicious to be honest. Also depends on your subjects like all jobs.
Best of luck in the hunt.

lestat21

TheDriver wrote: »

Regarding your own position, put it in bold in the initial bit about being prepared for HL LC maths, don't spout about being ready for PM because everyone should be at this stage. Include any info on giving tuition/grinds in HL LC maths is applicable.

Also note we look for Maths and..... because its very hard to fill timetables with maths alone. Sometimes people have bad combinations with maths.
Again sorry if people get offended by the above but thats the way we look at these and I am sure other schools do likewise.

Hey Driver, one thing you said just really struck me. I was told never to put grinds on a CV because schools often dont like teachers doing grinds. Has that changed?? I'm a maths teacher with very little experience but I have been giving grinds to two leaving cert students this year... If I can include this on a CV, how would I phrase it so as not to put schools off??

Understand exactly what you said about awkward combos... Im maths and history.. and I understand completely when schools opt for teachers who are able to teach sciences, applied maths or business... but fingers crossed still

secondary teacher

To the driver
Thanks very much for the reply , its a great help to get the views of some principals \vice principals when going on the tricky adventure that is job hunting.

TheDriver

lestat21 wrote: »

Hey Driver, one thing you said just really struck me. I was told never to put grinds on a CV because schools often dont like teachers doing grinds. Has that changed?? I'm a maths teacher with very little experience but I have been giving grinds to two leaving cert students this year... If I can include this on a CV, how would I phrase it so as not to put schools off??

Understand exactly what you said about awkward combos... Im maths and history.. and I understand completely when schools opt for teachers who are able to teach sciences, applied maths or business... but fingers crossed still

lestat21: there are probably some schools who don't like it but its a fact of life, we all have done grinds at some stage and also once itsnot 5-9 5 nights a week and your knackered in school because of it, then its not an issue. I would put it nicely though, provide tuition to higher level leaving cert maths students so its not the dreaded grinds word but you also have some limited experience of the course. Again don't labour PM, I find a lot of NQT are doing that as if they are magically better than my experienced maths teachers.

Maths and History isn't bad, maths and CSPE would be bad...... And don't forget your willingness to do SPHE, RE, LCVP etc etc all counts.

Postgrad10

No qualification in RE required ?

TheDriver

well there should be but most places won't have a full complement of RE teachers hence its always the filler when you are doing the end of the timetable. SPHE, RE and LCVP are always those ones that we don't look for full quals anyway once the head of the Dept is qualified and also theres lots of short courses to go on so we can say the staff are qualified.

You'd be surprised at the amount of staff who won't teach RE

Postgrad10

Really ? Are they fearful of syllabus ? What inservices can you go on to get RE? And if a teacher applied on spec to you that was qualified in RE , would you consider giving them the few classes ?

Postgrad10

Sorry for all the questions . How do you go about putting on your cv that you are willing to teach these extra subjects ? Can anybody attend an LCVP course?

TheDriver

with things like SPHE and RE, its only a small few classes a week over the whole school and amongst other staff so its not feasible having staff devoted to these although maybe in a very large school. I would put it on a cover letter that you are willing to teach LCVP and also resource as AFAIK there is no actual qualification for them. Anyone TC registered can teach resource and LCVP and to a smaller degree no one ever advertises for sphe teachers. School may have 1 qual RE teacher and rest are other teachers needing their timetables filled.
If someone with RE came along, nope because with cut backs, we have to prioritise. Its a long story with PTR and other factors that would take some time to explain here but answer your question, No.

ed06

driver you seem to be very helpful just wondering if you could provide an answe to the following. can teachers who have cid's for particular subjects like art or business be expected to teach resource if there subject interest drops amongst students. is there a requirement on management to give them resource hours off rpt resource teachers

gaeilgebeo

TheDriver wrote: »

well there should be but most places won't have a full complement of RE teachers hence its always the filler when you are doing the end of the timetable. SPHE, RE and LCVP are always those ones that we don't look for full quals anyway once the head of the Dept is qualified and also theres lots of short courses to go on so we can say the staff are qualified.

You'd be surprised at the amount of staff who won't teach RE

I'm assuming RE is not an exam subject in your school TheDriver?

doc_17

TheDriver wrote: »

with things like SPHE and RE, its only a small few classes a week over the whole school and amongst other staff so its not feasible having staff devoted to these although maybe in a very large school. I would put it on a cover letter that you are willing to teach LCVP and also resource as AFAIK there is no actual qualification for them. Anyone TC registered can teach resource and LCVP and to a smaller degree no one ever advertises for sphe teachers. School may have 1 qual RE teacher and rest are other teachers needing their timetables filled.
If someone with RE came along, nope because with cut backs, we have to prioritise. Its a long story with PTR and other factors that would take some time to explain here but answer your question, No.

Ah the oul LCVP chestnut! My previous school used that as a filler. I was asked if I had any interest in teaching one time. I'd rather pull my fingernails out! Not really sure what value it adds really. Especially since the ratio benefit was removed

TheDriver

gaeilgebeo: indeed i Should have mentioned that, its non exam in our place.

ed06: if you have a CID there are 2 optionsif your subject numbers fall: a) they could reduce your CID hours because the school has no more need for you (which has yet to be done anywhere and is still argued in the wording of the circular or b) given stuff to fll your timetable which would be resource or RE or SPHE etc etc. but this is only if there are hours in these subjects available and not used by longer CID/PWT staff.
Also remember that in the overall allocation, anyone there without a CID could be gotten rid of unless they have a subject tha t no one else can teach.
Its a bit of a "how long is a piece of string" questio unfortunately

lestat21

never taut of it that way driver, must update my cv once again

As well as maths and history i studied english and irish in my first year in college? With schools been allocated less teachers should I express a willingness to teach these subjects. I did get a few calls for subbing work during the orals but language teachers are always in demand those weeks

I love that this has become an all round advice forum for teachers However in my most recent interview at a school where I had no connections, I was left feeling like I had blown it. One question stumped me and my lack of experience was highlighted. I started to wonder if the job was already gone, but it wasn't and I got a phonecall that night to say I had been successful. I'm thinking that interviewers often throw awkward questions at candidates just to see how they handle themselves.

Postgrad10

Lestat21, I think you could be right on that . I got asked about my experience of teaching one of subjects to leaving cert level at an interview last year . It was very obvious from my CV that I hadn't the leaving cert teaching experience being an nqt, it did stop me for a second but I did go on to mention giving tuition in the subject instead but maybe it was given to me to see my reaction .

Thedriver , how should I have reacted to that question knowing I hadn't leaving cert experience at all?

TheDriver

hi again lads.If you have 1st year subjects, make sure you highlight them because even though they are not TC registered, we would love to have people with things like 1st year maths or irish in reserve.
Interviews, not thats a thorny issue. To be honest, a lot of opinions are formulated from impressions and the way you answer it. I love asking really probing questions in an interview to see reactions. I don't care too much what you say once its not too much out there but I do like to see what you come out with when pressed. Bit like a pressure situation in a classroom, how will you react, will you keep the line or come out with something strange. I would suggest you talk calmly, collectively, always following school procedure and being honest: to be honest I don't have a lot of experience at leaving cert but I am very determined etc etc.
Always believe you are the best and will serve the schools interests best, never talk negative, never put down your last school and always sound colective and structured.
P.S. dress right for an interview, you'd be shocked how many don't

gaeilgebeo

TheDriver, just curious from your posts, do you allow many unqualified(in other subjects) teachers teach in your school?
I work in the VEC sector and with the exception of SPHE, CSPE, sometimes RE, they've really tightened up on this.
I appreciate that the reality is that it comes down to timetabling/allocation etc, but I don't know if I'd like the idea of someone with Irish/Maths in the first year of their degree teaching Leaving Cert Irish/Maths. I don't think it's fair to the students.

lestat21

gaeilgebeo wrote: »

TheDriver, just curious from your posts, do you allow many unqualified(in other subjects) teachers teach in your school?
I work in the VEC sector and with the exception of SPHE, CSPE, sometimes RE, they've really tightened up on this.
I appreciate that the reality is that it comes down to timetabling/allocation etc, but I don't know if I'd like the idea of someone with Irish/Maths in the first year of their degree teaching Leaving Cert Irish/Maths. I don't think it's fair to the students.

I was always told that you could only teach to Junior cert level with a first year subject. But I wasnt even sure if that was still allowed. I have seen a lot of ridiculously unqualified subs who think theyre great at teaching any subject at any level. I have never heard of any unqualified teachers with a leaving cert level class for extended periods of time. Has that happened in schools previously??

gaeilgebeo

lestat21 wrote: »

I was always told that you could only teach to Junior cert level with a first year subject. But I wasnt even sure if that was still allowed. I have seen a lot of ridiculously unqualified subs who think theyre great at teaching any subject at any level. I have never heard of any unqualified teachers with a leaving cert level class for extended periods of time. Has that happened in schools previously??

That is definitely an urban myth.
I am sure many unqualified teachers have taught before, my own school included, but things have tightened up.

TheDriver

hey Gaeilgebeo: I didn't explain myself right. I would employ people for a contract job based on thei subjects for a job in those subjects. For longer term planning, 1st year subjects in their degree could be used to 1st year, maybe OL JC to make up padding as long as they agreed and seemed competent. I would not like to put them doing LC though.
Only time I would do this is if I was looking for say an Irish teacher to do subbing and couldn't find anyone except someone with Irish in 1st year as it would be the only thing we could find. Sorry but I didn't explain myself correctly earlier.
Employment is a right pain especially if its beyond 1st year or trying to fill 1 first year class or the like. Sometimes its hard to find teachers and as previously stated, serving the needs of the school as best we can and providing the school community with the most efficient leadership.

TheDriver

gaeilgebeo wrote: »

That is definitely an urban myth.
I am sure many unqualified teachers have taught before, my own school included, but things have tightened up.

Indeed urban myth, as in my last post, 1st year college-maybe 1st year/JC in school unless your subjects are impossible to find elsewhere for say week to week subbing

highly1111

heard a classic example of who you know again. a friend of a friend, just finished her dip last month has already got a teaching position where she used to go to school. it's a private all girls school in south dublin and her parents would be extremely wealthy and influential - she has no experience and it's a language position - fixed term contract.

would make you sick to the stomach.....

of course i could be wrong and maybe we was the best candidate....... :rolleyes:

Millem

highly1111 wrote: »

heard a classic example of who you know again. a friend of a friend, just finished her dip last month has already got a teaching position where she used to go to school. it's a private all girls school in south dublin and her parents would be extremely wealthy and influential - she has no experience and it's a language position - fixed term contract.

would make you sick to the stomach.....

of course i could be wrong and maybe we was the best candidate....... :rolleyes:

On the downside you will probably find she is school paid.

highly1111

Millem wrote: »

highly1111 wrote: »

heard a classic example of who you know again. a friend of a friend, just finished her dip last month has already got a teaching position where she used to go to school. it's a private all girls school in south dublin and her parents would be extremely wealthy and influential - she has no experience and it's a language position - fixed term contract.

would make you sick to the stomach.....

of course i could be wrong and maybe we was the best candidate....... :rolleyes:

On the downside you will probably find she is school paid.

Actually - you could be right there. I was trying to find the ad but I can't. I thought I might have had it saved as the school was looking for a few teachers across different subjects.

TheBody

I know a few fellas that were offered PERMANENT jobs in a vec school just after they finished the dip because they play gaa for the county team. I'm not saying they are bad teachers but it is OUTRAGEOUS to be offered permanent positions because you play gaa.

TheDriver

at the end of the day, we all know a story and most likely one with legs on it. Best advice is to forget the small few and focus on getting a job on your own merits which is the case in the vast majority of schools

RealJohn

TheBody wrote: »

I know a few fellas that were offered PERMANENT jobs in a vec school just after they finished the dip because they play gaa for the county team. I'm not saying they are bad teachers but it is OUTRAGEOUS to be offered permanent positions because you play gaa.

Likely to be a business decision more than anything else. If you get a bunch of students who would have gone elsewhere were it not for the GAA player in question teaching in the school, it's not hard to see how a principal could justify it. Depending on the area, that sort of decision could get the school a whole extra first year class worth of students.

spurious

Talking to our own DP today about applications and the silly things people leave off them.

She suggested

• make sure you have your TC number on your application
• make sure you say which subject combination you are applying for (madness, but a number of people leave this out)
• if you are using a standard cover letter, personalise it for the school you are applying for, not the last one you applied for (again, this happens more often than you'd think)

She said it's obvious some people have made more of an effort such as looking at the school website, learning a few things about the school and including references to those things in their applications.

TheDriver

I concur totally with spurious. You MUST have TC registration in this day and age and people do send me letters with the wrong school name on them. Also if you must use an application form then sending your CV is no good.

and 4 referees means 4 i.e. 1.2.3.4, not 3, not 2

Sorry but people really don't read ads. Also if it says write to the school for an application form, do NOT RING. If it says send a SAE, then send a SAE.

Postgrad10

What about NQT's awaiting their registration number ? That was me last year . Should they wait and not apply Thedriver ?

spurious

Postgrad10 wrote: »

What about NQT's awaiting their registration number ? That was me last year . Should they wait and not apply Thedriver ?

Apply and say you are awaiting it.
It's when they have no number, don't say what job they are applying for and leave you to work it out looking at their degree subjects that the fun starts.

Postgrad10

I can't people leave out the subjects they are applying for. Surely that's the opening of their letter of application !

Chris68

TheDriver wrote: »

P.S. dress right for an interview, you'd be shocked how many don't

What is "right"? Must females wear skirt suits? Or would you view a trouser suit as ok? And just for fun ... what is the most ridiculous thing you've seen?

@Driver: The advice you're offering here is excellent. Thank you.

TheDriver

Chris68 wrote: »

What is "right"? Must females wear skirt suits? Or would you view a trouser suit as ok? And just for fun ... what is the most ridiculous thing you've seen?

@Driver: The advice you're offering here is excellent. Thank you.

there are no strict set of rules to be honest but I suppose I still expect to see a guy in at least trousers, shirt and tie. Hell you can even get a suit in tescos for under 50 quid if you want to impress. Similar for ladies i.e. no fancy jeans because jeans are still jeans.
Ridiculous: guy in jeans once and they looked like the state I would have put into the bin

doc_17

TheBody wrote: »

I know a few fellas that were offered PERMANENT jobs in a vec school just after they finished the dip because they play gaa for the county team. I'm not saying they are bad teachers but it is OUTRAGEOUS to be offered permanent positions because you play gaa.

They might have had subject combination that were hard tO get? (or is this primary)

If there is a strong GAA ethos in the school that would certainly help them.

But are permanent jobs given out anymore? Had anyone who has ever been CID been switched to primary? And can this still happen?

spurious

Another obvious one is don't attach a zipped file, attach the document.

TheDriver

and time to give up your email address and get a new one if you are moving from college into the big bad professional world i.e. don't send stuff from "I-like-get-drunk-on-word-nights@goofball.net" etc. Might look funny now.....

Also FACEBOOK............................ its always nice to have a peek around and suss things out so time to hide the embarrassing photos. People have been put down the list by what we saw.......

bdoo

KKnow the correct name for subjects some have changed official titles. correct name for school. be careful with community school / community college.

a principle doesn't run a school. vice principal is now deputy etc.

spell check.
all errors i have seen recently.

all of our staff are appointed by VEC but for subs we would use cv's so keep them on file if they are poor they dont even make the filing cabinet

highly1111

@thedriver

I got a PFO today via email - I was wondering how to articulate a reply asking for feedback on my application - cv & cover letter. I wasn't short listed or called for interview though so I don't know if there's any point - or is there?? I've no idea how many applications there were and my cv is in the pile with the rest of them no doubt but i had included full TC Information, they're my subjects and I'm experienced and I would just welcome any feedback as to why I wasn't selected for interview.

What do you think of unsuccessful applicatants seeking feedback??

TheDriver

highly1111 wrote: »

@thedriver

I got a PFO today via email - I was wondering how to articulate a reply asking for feedback on my application - cv & cover letter. I wasn't short listed or called for interview though so I don't know if there's any point - or is there?? I've no idea how many applications there were and my cv is in the pile with the rest of them no doubt but i had included full TC Information, they're my subjects and I'm experienced and I would just welcome any feedback as to why I wasn't selected for interview.

What do you think of unsuccessful applicatants seeking feedback??

you can of course ask but personally I hate being asked that because a) its hard to tell someone they weren't the best for the job b) if they were below par its very hard to tell them and c) I have to be very very careful what to say in case I get sued for saying something bad.
Also some people plague me and want me to be their best friend after so I tend to bin most questions like that with a vague procedural answer.

Postgrad10

I know its difficult for you thedriver but couldnt you give some advice?, applicants need to learn from somewhere.

lestat21

Hi lads, specific question about an application form I'm filling in. They ask for details of any additional qualifications and Im fairly certain they mean diplomas rather than CPD and inservice courses. There is no section for me to highlight the Project Maths content courses I attended when I was out of work. Should I mention these courses in this part of the form or just mention them in the cover letter??

I really hate how much some of the application forms differ. I know they want to weed out people who cant be bothered spending the time filling in the form but different VECs seem to be looking for very different information...