Who you know or what you know?

RealJohn

TheDriver wrote: »

rulesrules wrote: »

'Who you know or what you know?'
I can confirm now from my experience that it is all about who you know!

Explain please because your painting all schools with the one brush which is not fair

I can only assume that it's from his/her personal experience. So by the same token, given that I managed to get a full time perminent position in my fifth year teaching in spite of not being anyone of particular importance and not having anyone to put in a good word for me in my school (at the time anyway) that it is all about what you know, not who you know.
Being qualified and good at what you do is everything, in my experience.

Of course some people like to make excuses for their own misfortune/incompetence too. I don't tend to pay much attention to them personally.

Chris68

Interviewed for a position recently. Got the "thanks but no thanks" letter on Friday. Today the job has been readvertised. Any thoughts?

doc_17

Hmmmm...they might not have been happy with the selection? Or maybe another job worth the exact same description has come up In the same school? Or the first few declined it and they want to give themselves as much choice a possible next time?

Those may be the only possibilities?

vamos!

RealJohn wrote: »

I can only assume that it's from his/her personal experience. So by the same token, given that I managed to get a full time perminent position in my fifth year teaching in spite of not being anyone of particular importance and not having anyone to put in a good word for me in my school (at the time anyway) that it is all about what you know, not who you know.
Being qualified and good at what you do is everything, in my experience.

Of course some people like to make excuses for their own misfortune/incompetence too. I don't tend to pay much attention to them personally.

I am glad that you got a good position. I am also glad to hear principals say that they do not hire people purely because they know them. I think it is completely unfair to say that people are making excuses for their incompetence though. Misfortune possibly, that a CV was not lucky enough to be selected from the pile of 200. These are hard times, as I am sure you are well aware, incompetence is not what is holding most people back from getting decent hours or a contract.

TheDriver

Chris68 wrote: »

Interviewed for a position recently. Got the "thanks but no thanks" letter on Friday. Today the job has been readvertised. Any thoughts?

They more than likely didn't think you were suitable for the position, likewise with the other candidates.

spring21

RealJohn wrote: »

I can only assume that it's from his/her personal experience. So by the same token, given that I managed to get a full time perminent position in my fifth year teaching in spite of not being anyone of particular importance and not having anyone to put in a good word for me in my school (at the time anyway) that it is all about what you know, not who you know.
Being qualified and good at what you do is everything, in my experience.

Of course some people like to make excuses for their own misfortune/incompetence too. I don't tend to pay much attention to them personally.

I hope that there are not many teachers qualified + incompetent !

TheDriver

spring21 wrote: »

I hope that there are not many teachers qualified + incompetent !

alas as with all professions and workplaces, there are some.

Fuinseog

TheDriver wrote: »

alas as with all professions and workplaces, there are some.

how would you define incompetent?

for example I could not cope in some schools where some pupils were stoned and very aggressive. Young female teachers could not cope with being called a 'cuunt' on a daily basis. in my view you need special training for that. school management offered no support, but you were expected to get on with the job.

vamos!

Fuinseog wrote: »

how would you define incompetent?

for example I could not cope in some schools where some pupils were stoned and very aggressive. Young female teachers could not cope with being called a 'cuunt' on a daily basis. in my view you need special training for that. school management offered no support, but you were expected to get on with the job.

Changing schools is a learning curve. I posted here at my wits end about 18 months ago. I was in a challenging school for the first time and felt like I was way out of my depth. I came home upset and was called all sorts. I followed the advice given by posters and colleagues and decided to focus on the positive community spirit of the school. Hey presto, success! I can't imagine many moving to a new school and having no teething issues. Incompetence is not trying to develop strategies to mprove the situation and not looking for help if you need it.

TheDriver

Fuinseog wrote: »

school management offered no support,.

don't forget who offers school management support after that? Its all a case of getting on with the job for everyone. There should be training but not always given.

I used to be very upset when I first started, dare I say stressed and wondering how to get my own back the next day. Now they don't even bother because the only raised voice they hear is when I sing with the choir and the only rise they see is when I stand on a podium.
No training could ever prepare me for this except colleague support and on the job experience which could lead me into another talk about how valuable experienced teachers are.........

Fizzical

TheDriver wrote: »

don't forget who offers school management support after that? Its all a case of getting on with the job for everyone. There should be training but not always given.

I used to be very upset when I first started, dare I say stressed and wondering how to get my own back the next day. Now they don't even bother because the only raised voice they hear is when I sing with the choir and the only rise they see is when I stand on a podium.
No training could ever prepare me for this except colleague support and on the job experience which could lead me into another talk about how valuable experienced teachers are.........

Fair play to you. Well survived!

But could I tempt you into that talk about experienced teachers being valuable? In our place it seems to be that the experienced teachers get sidelined and those that are valued are the young part-timers who say 'yes sister', 'no sister' and 'how high sister?'

TheDriver

Naturally all staff are valued but its common, especially from NQTs that the experienced teachers are long in the tooth and should be retired early to make way for fresh blood. Now there is merit in that argument however experienced teachers can handle hard discipline issues, can provide necessary supports without working up a sweat, handling the most troublesome of kids. I have a few on my staff that are the best when it comes to dealing with the right hard nuts and they don't bat an eyelid.

Miss Lockhart

TheDriver wrote: »

Naturally all staff are valued but its common, especially from NQTs that the experienced teachers are long in the tooth and should be retired early to make way for fresh blood. Now there is merit in that argument however experienced teachers can handle hard discipline issues, can provide necessary supports without working up a sweat, handling the most troublesome of kids. I have a few on my staff that are the best when it comes to dealing with the right hard nuts and they don't bat an eyelid.

I can honestly say that I have never heard or experienced such an attitude from young teachers, and I'm very glad to be able to say that.

rainbowtrout

TheDriver wrote: »

Naturally all staff are valued but its common, especially from NQTs that the experienced teachers are long in the tooth and should be retired early to make way for fresh blood. Now there is merit in that argument however experienced teachers can handle hard discipline issues, can provide necessary supports without working up a sweat, handling the most troublesome of kids. I have a few on my staff that are the best when it comes to dealing with the right hard nuts and they don't bat an eyelid.

Miss Lockhart wrote: »

I can honestly say that I have never heard or experienced such an attitude from young teachers, and I'm very glad to be able to say that.

I have seen it. In terms of 'do you not think Mr/Ms. X would retire, they've been at it 35+ years, they could well afford retirement now?' from newer teachers who sometimes think that they are entitled to the job of someone who is teaching 35 years and approaching 60, so they should retire early to provide a job for the newcomers....

I know some teachers who probably should retire and find it tough going from day to day. But I know other teachers who are fantastic at what they do, experienced, know their subject, excellent disciplinarians and are the backbone of the staff in that respect and will be a massive loss when they eventually bow out.

Miss Lockhart

rainbowtrout wrote: »

But I know other teachers who are fantastic at what they do, experienced, know their subject, excellent disciplinarians and are the backbone of the staff in that respect and will be a massive loss when they eventually bow out.

Yes, that is my experience of the vast majority of more "senior" teachers where I work. And that is the opinion held by all the young teachers I have ever heard comment on the topic.

gaeilgebeo

rainbowtrout wrote: »

I have seen it. In terms of 'do you not think Mr/Ms. X would retire, they've been at it 35+ years, they could well afford retirement now?' from newer teachers who sometimes think that they are entitled to the job of someone who is teaching 35 years and approaching 60, so they should retire early to provide a job for the newcomers....

I know some teachers who probably should retire and find it tough going from day to day. But I know other teachers who are fantastic at what they do, experienced, know their subject, excellent disciplinarians and are the backbone of the staff in that respect and will be a massive loss when they eventually bow out.

I completely agree. Most of the senior staff in our school are the backbone of the staff. You cannot replace the wealth of experience senior teachers have with any NQT. I always see the retirement of a senior teacher as a huge loss to the school.

bdoo

gaeilgebeo wrote: »

rainbowtrout wrote: »

I have seen it. In terms of 'do you not think Mr/Ms. X would retire, they've been at it 35+ years, they could well afford retirement now?' from newer teachers who sometimes think that they are entitled to the job of someone who is teaching 35 years and approaching 60, so they should retire early to provide a job for the newcomers....

I know some teachers who probably should retire and find it tough going from day to day. But I know other teachers who are fantastic at what they do, experienced, know their subject, excellent disciplinarians and are the backbone of the staff in that respect and will be a massive loss when they eventually bow out.

I completely agree. Most of the senior staff in our school are the backbone of the staff. You cannot replace the wealth of experience senior teachers have with any NQT. I always see the retirement of a senior teacher as a huge loss to the school.

In the past five years there has been a clearout in my school. Very experienced teachers have retired and been replaced by young teachers many of them nqts.

It was certainly a blow to lose all of the experience. But i have to say most of the new staff are excellent and are very ebthusiastic and capable.

As we all know the first few years in a school are spent establishing yourself - this is where yhe support of senior staff is important.

Senior staff doesnt mean older. If you're in a school mire than 5 years you're established enough to help out. I have found many of my colleagues lacking in their willingness to support new staff. I have mentioned it at staff meetings etc. Much to their unease.

The attitude appears to be 'well theyre okay in my class' and 'if theyre not in my classroom they're not my problem'.

I really think that this is appalling carry on. And these are the very people clamoring for the a post when it comes up.

I dont know if its underconfidence or laziness. But as schools change i think everyone has to support colleagues not just 'management'. A little work now saves a lot down the line.

gaeilgebeo

bdoo wrote: »

In the past five years there has been a clearout in my school. Very experienced teachers have retired and been replaced by young teachers many of them nqts.

It was certainly a blow to lose all of the experience. But i have to say most of the new staff are excellent and are very ebthusiastic and capable.

As we all know the first few years in a school are spent establishing yourself - this is where yhe support of senior staff is important.

Senior staff doesnt mean older. If you're in a school mire than 5 years you're established enough to help out. I have found many of my colleagues lacking in their willingness to support new staff. I have mentioned it at staff meetings etc. Much to their unease.

The attitude appears to be 'well theyre okay in my class' and 'if theyre not in my classroom they're not my problem'.

I really think that this is appalling carry on. And these are the very people clamoring for the a post when it comes up.

I dont know if its underconfidence or laziness. But as schools change i think everyone has to support colleagues not just 'management'. A little work now saves a lot down the line.

I see your point and I empathise. I know that senior staff aren't just retirees. I am teaching approximately ten years in my school so would be considered "senior" staff.
I would hate to think any new staff feel that I or anyone else is unsupportive. I would help any new member of staff, especially in my department with resources/advice etc...
As for discipline issues, I would offer support and advice but that is all a senior teacher can do really, short of sitting in the classroom with the NQT!
I think it's unfair to call senior staff "lazy" etc.. You must remember that school is a very busy place and every teachers workload has increased dramatically. A new teacher could be in our school for over a week before I could get a proper chat or minute to sit and introduce myself. It is by no means intentional.

Miss Lockhart

gaeilgebeo wrote: »

I see your point and I empathise. I know that senior staff aren't just retirees. I am teaching approximately ten years in my school so would be considered "senior" staff.
I would hate to think any new staff feel that I or anyone else is unsupportive. I would help any new member of staff, especially in my department with resources/advice etc...
As for discipline issues, I would offer support and advice but that is all a senior teacher can do really, short of sitting in the classroom with the NQT!
I think it's unfair to call senior staff "lazy" etc.. You must remember that school is a very busy place and every teachers workload has increased dramatically. A new teacher could be in our school for over a week before I could get a proper chat or minute to sit and introduce myself. It is by no means intentional.

I think the problem bdoo is talking about is when somebody looks for help/advice/support and is met with "well, they're always fine in my class". It might be true, but it's of no help to anybody and it's very unsupportive.

bdoo

Miss Lockhart wrote: »

I think the problem bdoo is talking about is when somebody looks for help/advice/support and is met with "well, they're always fine in my class". It might be true, but it's of no help to anybody and it's very unsupportive.

Well I'm not sure that it is anything less than laziness or disinterest in some cases but in general I was referring to the above.

I'm talking about real support not just the sympathetic ear and saying 'I know, I know, they're terrible'

and it's not just discipline its subject stuff - the things teachers have learned through years of teaching the subject. I just find that new teachers struggle enough with discipline without having to struggle with subject stuff too. It's just what I see in my school maybe it's not widespread

I am in my school 8 years and I am senior staff that's reality in a lot of schools. anyway its a bit off topic. but I do think that collegiality is not extra work but essential.

Fizzical

Thanks to all for good comments re senior teachers! Nobody mentioned maintaining the (dreaded word) ethos?

As regards support of new teachers, I'm not sure what to say. I would have thought each department looked after its own. It's only to the good of the dept to have every teacher in it supported - discipline, notes, methodology etc if required. Each new teacher must be respected though for their own professionalism and support should not equate with interference. In my own dept we work closely together and help each other out, and I always take special care that student and new teachers feel comfortable and confident in the place. Some teachers, though, are very independent and that's fine.

Apart from that, our DP minds the Dips and NQTs and has meetings with them re discipline issues and school policies etc so I think they're well supported in our place. I suppose it wasn't always so. Management would let you sink or swim.

I have often heard 'well, they're always fine in my class'. I have said it myself. But I think that it's a legitimate response to a general query. It means that the problem exists in some classes and not in others, that the child doesn't have a problem with school in general but with some subjects or teachers. It means that there might be way to work successfully with them if alternative approaches are tried. When I've said it myself and had nothing else to add, it was because the child literally was fine in my class and I had no idea why they wouldn't be, and I had no idea why they were acting up in the other teacher's class. On the other hand, I've had it said to me on occasion and to me it meant that it was something I had to figure out myself because it was obviously an issue in my class only.

Really, all new teachers are liable to have problems even using correct methods until the children are familiar with them and accept them, and until the new teachers figure out how to apply their theory to reality. Colleagues can only do so much.

Fuinseog

bdoo wrote: »

In the past five years there has been a clearout in my school. Very experienced teachers have retired and been replaced by young teachers many of them nqts.

It was certainly a blow to lose all of the experience. But i have to say most of the new staff are excellent and are very ebthusiastic and capable.

As we all know the first few years in a school are spent establishing yourself - this is where yhe support of senior staff is important.

Senior staff doesnt mean older. If you're in a school mire than 5 years you're established enough to help out. I have found many of my colleagues lacking in their willingness to support new staff. I have mentioned it at staff meetings etc. Much to their unease.

The attitude appears to be 'well theyre okay in my class' and 'if theyre not in my classroom they're not my problem'.

I really think that this is appalling carry on. And these are the very people clamoring for the a post when it comes up.

I dont know if its underconfidence or laziness. But as schools change i think everyone has to support colleagues not just 'management'. A little work now saves a lot down the line.

I have noticed that as well. I have been in some schools for a week and was treated as if I had been there all my life, while other in other staffrooms you are ignored even if you are there for the year because they see you as just passing through. I remember doing my dip and we were not invited to the staff christmas party which said a lot about the staff.