Martin McGuinness to meet Britain's queen

Border-Rat

awec wrote: »

There are thousands of tricolours flying up there. There are probably more tricolours flying from houses, lamposts and what not up there than there is down here. Seems a silly statement to make for someone who claims to have visited.

Anyway, got any reputable news links for the police standing on watching or apologising for taking down paramilitary flags?

Marvelous what you see on your weekly get-in/get-out shopping trip on select Nationalist border-areas, isn't it?

awec

Border-Rat wrote: »

Marvelous what you see on your weekly get-in/get-out shopping trip on select Nationalist border-areas, isn't it?

I'm from the north...

Nice try though.

Happy Monday

Border-Rat wrote: »

Marvelous what you see on your weekly get-in/get-out shopping trip on select Nationalist border-areas, isn't it?

http://www.belfastexposed.org/publications/index.php

Nodin

Happy Monday wrote: »

Photo - surely someone took a photo with a phone?
Can you produce it?

"Trouble has broken out on Black Mountain in west Belfast where a sign opposing the Royal visit to Northern Ireland was erected earlier"
http://www.u.tv/News/Black-Mountain-trouble-over-Queen-sign/5a75d90e-8fe4-42cc-9b82-1c6b79a62cfe

Fenian Army

awec wrote: »

There are thousands of tricolours flying up there. There are probably more tricolours flying from houses, lamposts and what not up there than there is down here. Seems a silly statement to make for someone who claims to have visited.

Anyway, got any reputable news links for the police standing on watching or apologising for taking down paramilitary flags?

Either way, the violence is sick. Anyone involved in that crap should hang their heads in shame. Silly season is back again, a few weeks early this year it seems.

I was talking about the one on black mountain!

No links yet (only happened recently, got a phone call about it an hour or so ago) but last year the coppers took some loyalist flags down and there was a riot afterwards. The police then apologized the next day.

It was in Ballyclare around the 12th last year, 5/6 PSNI people were injured.

The flags were outside the catholic church and school, the police didnt object to them being put back and I'm told that they are back again this year.

Should be enough info for you to google

awec

Nodin wrote: »

"Trouble has broken out on Black Mountain in west Belfast where a sign opposing the Royal visit to Northern Ireland was erected earlier"
http://www.u.tv/News/Black-Mountain-trouble-over-Queen-sign/5a75d90e-8fe4-42cc-9b82-1c6b79a62cfe

I wasn't doubting there was trouble.

I want to see evidence that the police stood around and watched people being hospitalised.

Border-Rat

awec wrote: »

I'm from the north...

Nice try though.

If that's the case, your story of 'Thousands of Tricolors flying everywhere, even more than the South' is basically a made-up yarn. I live in one of the most Republican areas of the North, not a flag in sight.

Border-Rat

awec wrote: »

I wasn't doubting there was trouble.

I want to see evidence that the police stood around and watched people being hospitalised.

No person 'from the north' would really need to see evidence of that. There's no 'evidence' (Re: Usually a request of a type-up by a UK-Online news service on forums like this) that the PSNI sheltered the UVF as it fired upon a Chapel-full of Catholics in Belfast last year. But most people (Up here) know it happened.

Fenian Army

Border-Rat wrote: »

No person 'from the north' would really need to see evidence of that. There's no 'evidence' (Re: Usually a request of a type-up by a UK-Online news service on forums like this) that the PSNI sheltered the UVF as it fired upon a Chapel-full of Catholics in Belfast last year. But most people (Up here) know it happened.

If the BBC doesnt say it it ain't true!

awec

Border-Rat wrote: »

No person 'from the north' would really need to see evidence of that. There's no 'evidence' (Re: Usually a request of a type-up by a UK-Online news service on forums like this) that the PSNI sheltered the UVF as it fired upon a Chapel-full of Catholics in Belfast last year. But most people (Up here) know it happened.

Oh ffs, I've heard it all now. :rolleyes:

I'm done with this debate. I'm not lowering myself to that level of nonsense.

NIMAN

Sad that us Northerners are so obsessed with flags, and indeed so annoyed by them.

People need to get other things to worry about in life.

Border-Rat

awec wrote: »

Oh ffs, I've heard it all now. :rolleyes:

I'm done with this debate. I'm not lowering myself to that level of nonsense.

Yes, the 2011 riots were a figment of our imagination. Are you denying that the UVF attempted to burn Catholics in the Short Strand out of their homes in 2011, where they then took shelter in St Matthews Church and were fired upon?

The bullet marks are still in the Chapel grounds you idiot.

Son Of A Vidic

MrJoeSoap wrote: »

Another bit of publicity to help SF increase their foothold on Irish politics.

*vomits*

*Slips on freshly vomited sour grapes*

Patrick Cleburne

Great day. Well done her Majesty and all the hard work she has done over 60 years. Long may she reign over us.

Fenian Army

Patrick Cleburne wrote: »

Great day. Well done her Majesty and all the hard work she has done over 60 years. Long may she reign over us.

Keith, werent you banned from AH? Why hasnt your alt account been banned? And don't pretend its not you, its obvious it is, indeed your choice of name was an instant giveaway.

Patrick Cleburne

Fenian Army wrote: »

Keith, werent you banned from AH? Why hasnt your alt account been banned? And don't pretend its not you, its obvious it is, indeed your choice of name was an instant giveaway.

Can you please keep on topic as this is a good discussion. Thanks. Call me Patrick.

Happyman42

Patrick Cleburne wrote: »

Great day. Well done her Majesty and all the hard work she has done over 60 years. Long may she reign over us.....

...and Marty rule us.

karma_

Patrick Cleburne wrote: »

Can you please keep on topic as this is a good discussion. Thanks. Call me Patrick.

Funnily enough, that's a typical Keith response.

I don't think your original account should have been banned, sure you were pretty much a troll but hell, you could be entertaining, if predictable. And yea just like the poster said your new name was a dead giveaway.

Patrick Cleburne

Happyman42 wrote: »

...and Marty rule us.

I like Martin Mcguinness and what he is doing for the Union and working in a UK government. His outreach to the Orange culture is nice and long may it continue. Perhaps he might be seen playing the Auld orange flute soon.

Happyman42

Patrick Cleburne wrote: »

I like Martin Mcguinness

And why wouldn't you Keith.

SocSocPol

Border-Rat wrote: »

Yes, the 2011 riots were a figment of our imagination. Are you denying that the UVF attempted to burn Catholics in the Short Strand out of their homes in 2011, where they then took shelter in St Matthews Church and were fired upon?

The bullet marks are still in the Chapel grounds you idiot.

Boo hoo! get over yourselves,grow up and get with the programme instead of looking for reasons to cry "victim".

Patrick Cleburne

SocSocPol wrote: »

Boo hoo! get over yourselves,grow up and get with the programme instead of looking for reasons to cry "victim".

I agree, judging by the crowd, a lot of Catholics seemed to enjoy her Majesty's visit.

Happy Monday

Patrick Cleburne wrote: »

I agree, judging by the crowd, a lot of Catholics seemed to enjoy her Majesty's visit.

Ain't that the truth!
Looks like the Catholics of the future will view themselves as Northen Irish and British - apart from those in the Republican ghettos and backwaters.
Rory McIllroy may have started a trend here.

Happyman42

Happy Monday wrote: »

Ain't that the truth!
Looks like the Catholics of the future will view themselves as Northen Irish and British - apart from those in the Republican ghettos and backwaters.
Rory McIllroy may have started a trend here.

Oh yeh, youse have really turned the tide of opinion. Will there be fields big enough on the 12th????

NIMAN

There is a belief that if there was a referendum the day after Catholics finally outnumber Protestants in the North, on whether to have a United Ireland, that it would pass.

Nothing could be further from the truth. Many many many Catholics would vote to stay in the UK.

longhalloween

Imagine if the whole meeting and the last 20 years of peace talks was a ruse by Sinn Féin just so Martin McGuinness could meet and kill the Queen.

Happyman42

NIMAN wrote: »

There is a belief that if there was a referendum the day after Catholics finally outnumber Protestants in the North, on whether to have a United Ireland, that it would pass.

No there isn't.

fasttalkerchat

Thought this was an interesting take on things:

The Queen of England visits Ireland – An IRA Volunteer's View!

There is a lot of comment regarding the upcoming visit of the British Queen to Ireland. I think that is hardly surprising as it is momentous and I am sure that it is difficult to accept for some people on all sides of this argument. I decided to set out some of my views on this as a former prisoner of war and someone who has been active in all aspects of resistance to British Rule in Ireland throughout my life.

Context

Our country is partitioned and the British State is the agency that imposed that partition and sustained the unjust sectarian statelet that was the 6 counties. Despite all the attempts to claim that we were engaged in a sectarian war – I can assure you that my comrades and I were in no doubt, the war we fought was against the British state. We did so until we succeeded in forcing the British state to the negotiating table.

After the most sustained period of armed struggle in our history, and the most damaging to Britain and her interests we were able to force a negotiated settlement. We did not get our United Socialist Republic, at this stage. But we did get a settlement that we had to assess and analyse; taking into account our long-term strategic objectives, the efficacy of various options available and the moral imperative that armed struggle should only be used when there are no other methods open.

The vast majority of Irish republicans (and the vast majority of the Irish nation in a referendum) accepted the Good Friday Agreement as an acceptable arrangement at this stage. Irish Republicans made it clear that we did not think it gave us everything we were struggling for and that it did not settle the issue between ourselves and Britain. We did accept however that it did give us enough to allow us, for the first time in history, to complete our journey by peaceful and democratic means. The struggle was not over but would change in character to become a political and social struggle for a United Ireland.

Constitutional Position.

The British agreed FOR THE FIRST TIME to abandon their claim to the 6 Counties. The removal of the Government of Ireland Act means that Britain has NO CHOICE but to legislate for withdrawal from our country as soon as a majority within the 6 Counties votes for that. That was not the case so long as the Government of Ireland Act remained on the British statute books.

This is a big compromise by us as we do not accept that any part of Ireland has the right to prevent our reunification and independence. But Britain has abandoned its territorial claim and their presence was now solely on the basis of the wishes of a section of the Irish people. Our challenge is to win a majority in this part of Ireland.

Winning that majority is something that Republicans should be committed to in any case as we aspire to the following

“The Republic guarantees religious and civil liberty, equal rights and equal opportunities to all its citizens, and declares its resolve to pursue the happiness and prosperity of the whole nation and of all its parts, cherishing all the children of the nation equally, and oblivious of the differences carefully fostered by an alien government, which have divided a minority from the majority in the past.”

Given all of this the current situation is that we have entered a phase of struggle in which we seek to reunite our people and bring about the “cordial union” as the founders of the United Irishmen declared.

Governance arrangements for 6 Counties

New governance arrangements were drawn up for the 6 Counties. These arrangements were innovative and unique to here.

An assembly was established that was of such a size and elected by such a method that maximised representation for smaller parties and ensures inclusivity. Even though Sinn Fein is the largest or second largest party in the North, at this time – I still welcome this aspect of the assembly structure.

The members of the assembly do not swear any oath or make any declaration of allegiance to the UK, the Queen or any other aspect of the British presence in Ireland.

The Executive is drawn from the assembly in accord with the D'Hondt mechanism of Proportional Representation which guarantees a position in Government for all parties, that wish to avail of it, according to their electoral strength as demonstrated in the election to the assembly.

None of the ministers, including the First and Deputy First Ministers, swear any oath or make any declaration of allegiance to the UK, the Queen or any other aspect of the British presence in Ireland. This, by the way, should be pointed out to any of those who claim that Martin McGuinness or anyone else in the 6 Counties Executive are Ministers of the Crown – They are not!

All-Ireland institutions are to be established and they are to expand and grow to deliver better governance across the whole of Ireland. (Often described as all-Island for those who find the use of all-Ireland too challenging at this stage).

There are bilateral and multi-lateral relations with Britain and its constituent parts. Given the clear evolution of Scotland towards independence, these bilateral relations might well turn out to be the most de-stablising for the Union of any of the structures arising out of the Good Friday Agreement,

Government at all levels must act in accordance with certain principles which include the duties of openness, transparency, equality and the promotion of Good Relations. Now here is where the struggle is fought most keenly and is where the building blocks of the new “Cordial Union” will be built on this island.

Constitutional Issue

It should be recalled that the President of Ireland now visits the 6 Counties on a regular basis – and is received by all sections of the community here. Unionists have greeted and entertained successive Irish Presidents for many years now. Of course they will say that they do not greet the President as their head of state but as a guest to the North while most Nationalists and Republicans will greet the President as Head of State.Whilst the visit of the Queen of England to the 6 Counties is being conducted a part of her Jubilee celebrations and includes several engagements that will be enthusiastically attended by Unionists. I am told that several SDLP members are planning to attend the party in Stormont but this will not be attended by anyone from Sinn Fein.

But Martin McGuinness is meeting the British Queen but not in her capacity as Head of State. He is meeting her in the Lyric Theatre in Belfast, in her capacity as the co-patron of an all Ireland charity – Co-operation Ireland. She is attending that on an equal basis to the President of Ireland who is the other co-patron. There is no question of the British Queen or President Higgins attending this function as head of state. The protocol is very clear on this and there is no constitutional implications of the meeting in that context.

Community Relations.The unionist community will be celebrating this visit and indulging in a degree of Jubilee frolics and they have a right to do this. Most people will have read of the euphoria around visits by the Irish President to the Irish Community in Britain and no-one in Britain objected to the Irish flag being widely displayed and the Irish National Anthem being played. Several British politicians have attended many of these functions.

Of course, in Ireland, there is a particular need for everyone to be sensitive at times like this and this is especially so given the British monarch’s relationship with various British regiments. The British Monarch has a responsibility to be sensitive to the feelings of the victims and survivors of state violence.

Many people including many Irish Republicans who opposed her visit to Dublin have acknowledged that two important gestures were made by the British Queen at that time. She visited and laid a wreath, bowing her head in respect, at the Garden of Remembrance to those who gave their lives fighting Britain for Irish freedom. That is as it should be and can be seen between many countries that were once at at war.

At another event she acknowledged that there were many things Britain had done that ought to have been done differently or not all at all. This is the nearest any British monarch has ever come to apologising for crimes committed under colonialism. It is only a few decades ago that she refused to apologise to the Indian people for the massacre at Amritsar even as she visited that city. So the words spoken in Dublin are significant.

SummaryI believe as an undefeated and unrepentant IRA volunteer and a Sinn Fein member that we are in a very different place from where we were when I took up arms against the British State.

I still repudiate any claim to any of our territory by Britain and am working hard to bring about the United Ireland that I have pledged my allegiance to.

I think we can now achieve this by peaceful and democratic means thanks to the sacrifice of Irish Volunteers and their families over generations and in particular in the last phase of armed struggle.

I believe that the phase of struggle we are now engaged in is one of nation building where we are seeking to heal “the differences carefully fostered by an alien government, which have divided a minority from the majority in the past.”

I believe that this gesture by Martin McGuinness does not compromise any constitutional principles as he is not meeting her as head of the so-called UK state.

I believe that in giving this space to Unionists we are demonstrating that we are serious about “cherishing all the children of the nation equally” and that Unionists have nothing to fear from the United Ireland that we will achieve.

This will not be universally accepted by Republicans. I find it a stretch myself. People are entitled to disagree with me and to put forward an alternative view. But we should all disagree honestly and not distort the real position.

Martin McGuinness is not a British Minister and is not a minister of the crown.Martin McGuiness is not meeting the British Queen as the head of state.

You’re entitled to disagree but you’re not entitled to twist the truth.

I can tell you that I am the same Irish Republican I was the day I joined the IRA and the day I took part in my first attack on the British State. I am the same Irish Republican I was when I refused to bow the knee in a dock and was sent to prison by the British State. And I can assure you that I am the same Irish republican today when I refused to shirk the political challenges that this phase in our freedom struggle demands!

Three different phases of struggle, all leading to the same goal; a United Democratic Socialist Irish Republic.

Happy Monday

Happyman42 wrote: »

Oh yeh, youse have really turned the tide of opinion. Will there be fields big enough on the 12th????

Could use Casement Park.

Happyman42

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

Thought this was an interesting take on things:

Cheers, hadn't seen that.
Would that the other side was as forward thinking and progressive.

Patrick Cleburne

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

Thought this was an interesting take on things:

Nice to see he wants to force socialism on the entire island. But you can't be surprised with IRA terrorists.

I'd rather get hung, drawn and quartered than accept that awful prospect. He can stick his Socialism up his arse.

fasttalkerchat

I don't know if there's a thread on the riots here.
Basically loyalists tried to destroy the tricolour on the mountain earlier. A group of locals chased them off then the police arrived and removed part of it too.
Crowds grew as it can be seen from half of the city and at one point there were a few hundred up there.

The flag was "recaptured" and has been repaired and moved for the night. Street battles are going on between 50-100 republicans and police. Reports that one young fella was badly beaten by loyalists and attacked with a knife.
Things are more calm now but theres a live stream here: http://www.trafficwatchni.com/sections/camupdater.asp?cam=4&name=Broadway

fasttalkerchat

Patrick Cleburne wrote: »

Nice to see he wants to force socialism on the entire island. But you can't be surprised with IRA terrorists.

To be fair all political parties want their form of government. He/She makes it quite clear about support for consensus regarding unification etc.

Happyman42

Patrick Cleburne wrote: »

Nice to see he wants to force socialism on the entire island. But you can't be surprised with IRA terrorists.

I'd rather get hung, drawn and quartered than accept that awful prospect. He can stick his Socialism up his arse.

Now Keith, you know the trouble the Unionists got into the last time they tried to oppress political ideals.
Your'e a democrat,(allegedly) just don't vote for him.:rolleyes:

Happy Monday

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

Thought this was an interesting take on things:

Can I see the Irish language version please?

Patrick Cleburne

Happyman42 wrote: »

Now Keith, you know the trouble the Unionists got into the last time they tried to oppress political ideals.
Your'e a democrat,(allegedly) just don't vote for him.:rolleyes:

I would like to defend the people in the Irish Republic who don't want Socialism and are against what he proposes. I think the people in the Irish Republic don't get a fair hand when it comes to this.


His view is a minority which is not wanted on the Island overall. He won't ever live long enough to see if it even possible.

Happyman42

Happy Monday wrote: »

Can I see the Irish language version please?

Give him/her a call.

fasttalkerchat

Happy Monday wrote: »

Can I see the Irish language version please?

If you would like to make a request to have the document translated you can contact Derry SF. Great to see that you are embracing Irish culture and native language!

Happyman42

Patrick Cleburne wrote: »

I would like to defend the people in the Irish Republic who don't want Socialism and are against what he proposes. I think the people in the Irish Republic don't get a fair hand when it comes to this.


His view is a minority which is not wanted on the Island overall. He won't ever live long enough to see if it even possible.

Well, real, normal democratic people make their choices at polling booths so he has the right to convince them. We are used to that concept down here though, I know proper democracy is new to you guys, but you'll get the hang of it. It's not rocket science.

Patrick Cleburne

“the differences carefully fostered by an alien government, which have divided a minority from the majority in the past.”

Rewriting history. The majority of Protestants in Ulster had always rejected the objective of a United Ireland in any form. What he is spouting here is nonsense and to suggest otherwise is a blatant lie and should be corrected.

Wolfe Tone and Henry Joy McCracken was a minority of Protestants who wanted a United Ireland. He is basically saying at one point both sides had been United which is a total lie.

Happy Monday

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

If you would like to make a request to have the document translated you can contact Derry SF. Great to see that you are embracing Irish culture and native language!

Thought the Irish language version would have been the first up.
And you think they can speak Irish in Derry!!
Marty hasn't a word of the stuff.

Nodin

Patrick Cleburne wrote: »

........

Wolfe Tone and Henry Joy McCracken was a minority of Protestants who wanted a United Ireland. ..........

You realise that there was no partition back then?

Patrick Cleburne

Nodin wrote: »

You realise that there was no partition back then?

It wasn't a United Ireland in the way Republicans want. That was the basic point. He is trying to say there was a minority (Protestants) taken away from the majority which is nonsense as the minority never supported a United Ireland.

Happyman42

Patrick Cleburne wrote: »

It wasn't a United Ireland in the way Republicans want. That was the basic point. He is trying to say there was a minority (Protestants) taken away from the majority which is nonsense as the minority never supported a United Ireland.

He's talking about the Border Keith! :rolleyes:

Nodin

Patrick Cleburne wrote: »

It wasn't a United Ireland in the way Republicans want. That was the basic point. He is trying to say there was a minority (Protestants) taken away from the majority which is nonsense as the minority never supported a United Ireland.

I'm only half sure what thats meant to mean. Many Protestants who didn't belong to the State church favoured independence.

Patrick Cleburne

Happyman42 wrote: »

He's talking about the Border Keith! :rolleyes:

No he isn't. He is talking about the "great divide". That quote he got actually came before partition.

fasttalkerchat

Patrick Cleburne wrote: »

It wasn't a United Ireland in the way Republicans want. That was the basic point. He is trying to say there was a minority (Protestants) taken away from the majority which is nonsense as the minority never supported a United Ireland.

From just a few generations after the plantation there was a movement to break away from British rule within the new community. I'm not aware of the availability of statistics to say whether they were a majority or minority.

My take on it is that through partition a majority has become a minority i.e. the majoirty within Ireland is now a minority within the 06.

Happy Monday

Nodin wrote: »

I'm only half sure what thats meant to mean. Many Protestants who didn't belong to the State church favoured independence.

The vast majority of Catholics in the South favoured staying within the Union 100 hundred years ago. All they wanted was Home Rule. John Redmond was a convinced imperalist and believed in Britain's place in the sun. Things change.

Richard Hillman

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

I don't know if there's a thread on the riots here.
Basically loyalists tried to destroy the tricolour on the mountain earlier. A group of locals chased them off then the police arrived and removed part of it too.
Crowds grew as it can be seen from half of the city and at one point there were a few hundred up there.

The flag was "recaptured" and has been repaired and moved for the night. Street battles are going on between 50-100 republicans and police. Reports that one young fella was badly beaten by loyalists and attacked with a knife.
Things are more calm now but theres a live stream here: https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/8075_372195669502539_1066511858_n.jpg

Its all recreational. These people from absolute kips like the Shankill and the Falls Road have literately nothing else to live for.

Patrick Cleburne

Happy Monday wrote: »

The vast majority of Catholics in the South favoured staying within the Union 100 hundred years ago. All they wanted was Home Rule. John Redmond was a convinced imperalist and believed in Britain's place in the sun. Things change.

That is what I was going to say. The person who wrote that article seems to think it is a forgone conclusion that the Irish Republic wants what he wants. That isn't the case.