Martin McGuinness to meet Britain's queen

fasttalkerchat

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

I don't know if there's a thread on the riots here.
Basically loyalists tried to destroy the tricolour on the mountain earlier. A group of locals chased them off then the police arrived and removed part of it too.
Crowds grew as it can be seen from half of the city and at one point there were a few hundred up there.

The flag was "recaptured" and has been repaired and moved for the night. Street battles are going on between 50-100 republicans and police. Reports that one young fella was badly beaten by loyalists and attacked with a knife.
Things are more calm now but theres a live stream here: http://www.trafficwatchni.com/sections/camupdater.asp?cam=4&name=Broadway

Just realised I pasted the wrong link earlier. Trouble seems to have ended thank god! Hope the young fella makes a full recovery.

Happyman42

Cheers again fasttalkerchat. makes the case very clear and more than adequately repudiates the nonsense the Unionists are getting their union jack knickers in a twist about. They would do well to pay attention to the agreement and it's implementation that they signed up to. Clear as day below.

The members of the assembly do not swear any oath or make any declaration of allegiance to the UK, the Queen or any other aspect of the British presence in Ireland.

The Executive is drawn from the assembly in accord with the D'Hondt mechanism of Proportional Representation which guarantees a position in Government for all parties, that wish to avail of it, according to their electoral strength as demonstrated in the election to the assembly.

None of the ministers, including the First and Deputy First Ministers, swear any oath or make any declaration of allegiance to the UK, the Queen or any other aspect of the British presence in Ireland. This, by the way, should be pointed out to any of those who claim that Martin McGuinness or anyone else in the 6 Counties Executive are Ministers of the Crown – They are not!

Fenian Army

Patrick Cleburne wrote: »

Nice to see he wants to force socialism on the entire island. But you can't be surprised with IRA terrorists.

I'd rather get hung, drawn and quartered than accept that awful prospect. He can stick his Socialism up his arse.

The big orange drum has always been beaten to stop working clas unity...

Shame it continues to be true, sure under the current system working class loyalists are well worse off than nationalists. In recessions in the past catholics were run out of jobs, that cant be done now, hopefully we will see working class unionists embrace socialism.

fasttalkerchat

Fenian Army wrote: »

The big orange drum has always been beaten to stop working clas unity...

Shame it continues to be true, sure under the current system working class loyalists are well worse off than nationalists. In recessions in the past catholics were run out of jobs, that cant be done now, hopefully we will see working class unionists embrace socialism.

There was some hope with the PUP years ago but it was never more than a distant hope. Working class unionists were pumped up with a sectarian and partitionist feeling both times that change was coming about on this Island (1912-1925 and late '60s). Maybe when change begins to happen peacefully they will get involved in real politics.

Patrick Cleburne

Fenian Army wrote: »

The big orange drum has always been beaten to stop working clas unity...

Shame it continues to be true, sure under the current system working class loyalists are well worse off than nationalists. In recessions in the past catholics were run out of jobs, that cant be done now, hopefully we will see working class unionists embrace socialism.

Socialism is a nonsense and always has been. Trying to use it against people from the Orange tradition is rather sad.

Happyman42

Patrick Cleburne wrote: »

Socialism is a nonsense and always has been. Trying to use it against people from the Orange tradition is rather sad.

I'm not very happy with the system of government in Dublin Keith, but I'm a democrat and I accept the will of the people. Why would the orange community of a united Ireland expect to have a veto?

Patrick Cleburne

Happyman42 wrote: »

I'm not very happy with the system of government in Dublin Keith, but I'm a democrat and I accept the will of the people. Why would the orange community of a united Ireland expect to have a veto?

Do you not think people should be free if that is what they want? I ain't arguing against democracy as it is actually working for Unionism. But this arrogance to just assume the Island of Ireland wants Socialism is rather odd.

fasttalkerchat

Patrick Cleburne wrote: »

Do you not think people should be free if that is what they want? I ain't arguing against democracy as it is actually working for Unionism. But this arrogance to just assume the Island of Ireland wants Socialism is rather odd.

I would like to see a 32 county socialist republic based on a federal system. They guy giving his opinions in the article I posted was giving his opinion on preferred government. No one here has said you don't have the right to vote against it or to vote for whatever party you want.

Happyman42

Patrick Cleburne wrote: »

Do you not think people should be free if that is what they want? I ain't arguing against democracy as it is actually working for Unionism. But this arrogance to just assume the Island of Ireland wants Socialism is rather odd.

You are doing what the footdraggers have been doing since the agreement Keith. You are trying to find 'bogeymen'.
What bit do you not understand about this following from his statement?

We did accept however that it did give us enough to allow us, for the first time in history, to complete our journey by peaceful and democratic means.

Again; you have a vote in an equal society.

Happy Monday

Happyman42 wrote: »

You are doing what the footdraggers have been doing since the agreement Keith. You are trying to find 'bogeymen'.
What bit do you not understand about this following from his statement?
Again; you have a vote in an equal society.

British democracy is built on equality.
McG meeting Her Majesty this morning is an acknowledgement of her right to be in Ireland and right to be head of state of Northern Ireland by Sinn Feiners.
Next move is to take seats in Westminster.
Then to attend the trooping of the colour.
Then the balcony at Buckingham Palace.

Happyman42

Happy Monday wrote: »

British democracy is built on equality.

Yes, it's a monarchy. :rolleyes:

indioblack

Happyman42 wrote: »

Yes, it's a monarchy. :rolleyes:

A constitutional monarchy.
Doesn't really affect the day to day working of the state.
As for democracy, it would be better if more people had a hand in choosing candidates - it's mostly left to political parties.
I guess it is similar in the Republic.

Crooked Jack

Happy Monday wrote: »

British democracy is built on equality.
McG meeting Her Majesty this morning is an acknowledgement of her right to be in Ireland and right to be head of state of Northern Ireland by Sinn Feiners.
Next move is to take seats in Westminster.
Then to attend the trooping of the colour.
Then the balcony at Buckingham Palace.

You have nothing to add. It's quite obvious you're just trying to get a rise out of people. I think everyone should ignore you.

Happyman42

indioblack wrote: »

A constitutional monarchy.
Doesn't really affect the day to day working of the state.

It's a monarchy with one of the last, most archaic class systems in the developed world. Watch how they queue up for their knighthoods and honours, because they know the preferential treatment such a title bestows on them. Whole rafts of society born into privledge because of the position bestowed upon an ancestor by the monarchy. Equal and fair, me Irish arse!
You can delude yourself with their PR that it is a fair and democratic system if you wish. There are many many people in the UK who would disagree vehemently with your consensus.

karma_

Crooked Jack wrote: »

You have nothing to add. It's quite obvious you're just trying to get a rise out of people. I think everyone should ignore you.

He's boards equivalent of Kevin Myers.

Happyman42

Crooked Jack wrote: »

You have nothing to add. It's quite obvious you're just trying to get a rise out of people. I think everyone should ignore you.

He/she has been at it for a while now. From around about the time that they ran out of coherent argument. I quite enjoy it actually. A bit like the attitude of Republicans to Paisley; give him enough rope and his bigoted bombast will keep hanging himself and his electorate.

Immaculate Pasta

I know it's stating the bleeding obvious but McGuinness has had such a huge huge transformation. Funny how the world works. Imagine saying McGuinness would one day meet the Queen 20-30 years ago.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ch5u8YbOyIE

It's hard to think this guy is the same person. I find the way he doesn't even flinch at the mention of death really chilling. Also massive LOL for the highest rated Youtube comment .

indioblack

Happyman42 wrote: »

It's a monarchy with one of the last, most archaic class systems in the developed world. Watch how they queue up for their knighthoods and honours, because they know the preferential treatment such a title bestows on them. Whole rafts of society born into privledge because of the position bestowed upon an ancestor by the monarchy. Equal and fair, me Irish arse!
You can delude yourself with their PR that it is a fair and democratic system if you wish. There are many many people in the UK who would disagree vehemently with your consensus.

I posted four lines!
Where did I say it was equal and fair?
Where did I state that it was fair and democratic?
The last part of my quote would indicate otherwise.
Describing it as a constitutional monarchy is technically correct.
Doesn't mean that I agree with it, or all that flows from monarchy.
I don't regard myself as a monarchist.
And don't call me deluded - it was four lines - can't have been so hard to understand.

Happyman42

indioblack wrote: »

I posted four lines!
Where did I say it was equal and fair?
Where did I state that it was fair and democratic?
The last part of my quote would indicate otherwise.
Describing it as a constitutional monarchy is technically correct.
Doesn't mean that I agree with it, or all that flows from monarchy.
I don't regard myself as a monarchist.
And don't call me deluded - it was four lines - can't have been so hard to understand.

You said this

Doesn't really affect the day to day working of the state.

My point was that it does, profoundly.

Rascasse

Happyman42 wrote: »

My point was that it does, profoundly.

Could you give some examples?

Happyman42

Rascasse wrote: »

Could you give some examples?

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/c49.0.403.403/p403x403/557231_353598031376398_1666169842_n.jpg

Rascasse

On a lighter note, here is the cover of the new Private Eye.

http://imgur.com/oNj5k

indioblack

Happyman42 wrote: »

You said this


My point was that it does, profoundly.

If by that you mean barriers of class and wealth, privilige and power as a consequence of monarchy, then I would concede that.
But you will find the use and abuse of power, nepotism and cronyism in other strata of society - and in other countries - strip away the regalia and banners and it won't be much different - subtler, perhaps - but still there. Even republics aren't immune to these traits.
Part of my little post was a comment on the democratic process and what I observe as it's shortcomings.
My objection was in your inferring that I made claims of equality and fairness.

Patrick Cleburne

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

I would like to see a 32 county socialist republic based on a federal system. They guy giving his opinions in the article I posted was giving his opinion on preferred government. No one here has said you don't have the right to vote against it or to vote for whatever party you want.

We know that now. They learnt the lesson that we are allowed to vote and not be bombed into it.

I Heart Internet

Picture of the happy event here:

http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0627/queen-martin-mcguinness.html

Nice to see.

Genuinely curious to know if Prince Phillip shoke hands and if he had anything to say.......

Patrick Cleburne

I Heart Internet wrote: »

Picture of the happy event here:

http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0627/queen-martin-mcguinness.html

Nice to see.

Genuinely curious to know if Prince Phillip shoke hands and if he had anything to say.......

Her majesty is just amazing. She has so much courage to do this and to serve her people so well like she does. Such dignity and grace, a historic moment for her Majesty.

kfallon

Patrick Cleburne wrote: »

Her majesty is just amazing. She has so much courage to do this and to serve her people so well like she does. Such dignity and grace, a historic moment for her Majesty.

paddyandy

MARMITE ...Well done !!

Il Trap

Patrick Cleburne wrote: »

Her majesty is just amazing. She has so much courage to do this and to serve her people so well like she does. Such dignity and grace, a historic moment for her Majesty.

Ah, catch a grip! :rolleyes:

c_man

Happyman42 wrote: »

My point was that it does, profoundly.

We had an unelected head of state from 2004-2011, did it make any difference whatsoever to anyone?

Happyman42

Patrick Cleburne wrote: »

Her majesty is just amazing. She has so much courage to do this and to serve her people so well like she does. Such dignity and grace, a historic moment for her Majesty.

What you are trying to say, is she has balls. Now let's see can Peter Robinson borrow them and do the same.
Great day, another 'bogeyman' is unavailable to the bigots.

Immaculate Pasta

Protest picture on the Black Mountain from Republicans.

http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/1987/55317136339399660962147.jpg

old hippy

Patrick Cleburne wrote: »

I agree, judging by the crowd, a lot of Catholics seemed to enjoy her Majesty's visit.

Can you tell a catholic on sighting? Anyways, well done to both parties involved. I'm no fan of monarchy but Brenda has made a real symbolic gesture, as has Martin McG (amusingly described by EVERY mainstream paper here as "former IRA leader")

Happyman42

indioblack wrote: »

If by that you mean barriers of class and wealth, privilige and power as a consequence of monarchy, then I would concede that.
But you will find the use and abuse of power, nepotism and cronyism in other strata of society - and in other countries - strip away the regalia and banners and it won't be much different - subtler, perhaps - but still there. Even republics aren't immune to these traits.

The difference being that the above is illegal and against the system. Privilege is not part of the system in a proper republic (and we aren't one yet), from access to education right through to governance.

old hippy

Happy Monday wrote: »

Up here!
It's not being done to advance SF up here!
It's being done to advance SF down here partitionist!
Last year when the Queen came down here she was welcomed with open arms by people in the South.
This shocked SF who are trying to advance electorally in the Free State as they used to call it.
This is being done to convince these people - middle class voters in the south - that a vote for SF doesn't mean a vote for hate filled, murderous, criminal thugs - not anymore anyway.

LOL, I grew up with a prominent SF member and he is one of the most articulate, caring, non violent people I know. Mustn't believe all you're told to believe.

bnt

Well, it's done. Now we wait to see what the rabid Fenians do to McGuinness. My prediction is that he's going to say goodbye to that hand. :eek:

Happyman42

old hippy wrote: »

LOL, I grew up with a prominent SF member and he is one of the most articulate, caring, non violent people I know. Mustn't believe all you're told to believe.

It truly galls the bigots that the IRA stopped so effectively and profoundly once they reached an agreement that they could live with. The immediate, effective and continued cessation demolished the stereotypical image created by the bigots of the IRA as physcopathic, murderous thugs, out of control with protestant blood lust.
As Jim Molyneaux said about the IRA cessation, in his famous unscripted aside, 'This is the worst thing that ever happened to us'.
He knew the full implications of what was happening, as did Paisley, who decided to change tack shortly after.
Wonder was Paisley there today, anyone know?

indioblack

Happyman42 wrote: »

The difference being that the above is illegal and against the system. Privilege is not part of the system in a proper republic (and we aren't one yet), from access to education right through to governance.

Indeed - which is why I did not claim it was fair and equal.

rgmmg

Handshakes now. But what Martin really wants to know is if he'll get a hand job off that glove at the after party.

fasttalkerchat

Just saw the handshake video. Interesting the he was very careful to keep his head straight when the unionists did a small bow.

Biggins

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

Just saw the handshake video. Interesting the he was very careful to keep his head straight when the unionists did a small bow.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rT0Cs5xOXoU

fasttalkerchat

Just heard on the news that was actually the 2nd handshake. The first one happened in private.

android1

Nobody has ever shaken hands with the Queen. She wears gloves. Not a handshake.

karma_

I Heart Internet wrote: »

Picture of the happy event here:

http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0627/queen-martin-mcguinness.html

Nice to see.

Genuinely curious to know if Prince Phillip shoke hands and if he had anything to say.......

Didn't you read the article you linked? Or watch the clip?

Happyman42

......

fasttalkerchat

Happyman42 wrote: »

......

I loved frankie boyles tweet about the buzzer.

Happyman42

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

I loved frankie boyles tweet about the buzzer.

What did he say?

fasttalkerchat

Happyman42 wrote: »

What did he say?

@frankieboyle: Hope Martin McGuinness shakes hands with the Queen with a jokeshop buzzer. Nothing breaks the tension like an old woman ****ting her pants.



@frankieboyle: Hats off to Martin McGuinness, I always find it difficult to make smalltalk with old folk, especially when I've blown up their cousin.

Roger Sterling

Biggins wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rT0Cs5xOXoU

I read the top of the banner on the youtube clip as:

U CÚNT: The Queen and Martin McGuiness shake hands

:pac:

Probably what old Mawrcheen was thinking anyway.

Stinicker

I was pretty sure Marty Mc was going to do something like this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3el7UHDB9qM