Martin McGuinness to meet Britain's queen

SocSocPol

Happyman42 wrote: »

Irish repubicanism have accepted responsibility for that a long time ago.

Why do you think it furthers yours or anybody else's argument to constantly bring the victims of one side into the debate?
Jean McConville died for the same reason everybody else died.

Jean McConville didn't just die , she was kidnapped tortured and murdered by the biggest organized crime ever to terrorize this island.Of course it suits the apologists for these criminal to minize what happened to her, what happend in Guilford, what happened in Birmingham, what happened in Warrington, and make it seem like they were just unfortunate acts of God!

Happyman42

SocSocPol wrote: »

Jean McConville didn't just die , she was kidnapped tortured and murdered by the biggest organized crime ever to terrorize this island.Of course it suits the apologists for these criminal to minize what happened to her, what happend in Guilford, what happened in Birmingham, what happened in Warrington, and make it seem like they were just unfortunate acts of God!

Who minimised those acts?
Your line of argument will go nowhere, only in a vicious circle of 'look what they did'.

Jean McConville died because society broke down, no other reason.
Had the British governed responsibly, and given people what they eventually where forced to give, the situation would never have gotten to the state it did. An awful lot of people would be still alive today.

SocSocPol

Happyman42 wrote: »

Who minimised those acts?
Your line of argument will go nowhere, only in a vicious circle of 'look what they did'.

Jean McConville died because society broke down, no other reason.
Had the British governed responsibly, and given people what they eventually where forced to give, the situation would never have gotten to the state it did. An awful lot of people would be still alive today.

Actually she died by an organized crime gang were pissed at her, nothing to do with brits, amazing how you keep trying to find a way to blame them, instead of the murdering thugs who actually carried out the horrific act of butchery.

Happyman42

I don't claim any special knowledge of the case. Here is the IRA statement though. Two sides at odds over the truth, (the unfortunate consequences of conflict) We will probably never know what actually happened and that is not unique to the McConville case, there are many many more such cases. That is why it is pointless raising one sides acts when debating the conflict. Try understanding that simple point, it was no worse than what was done elsewhere, sadly.

http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/othelem/organ/ira/ira080706.htm

Patrick Cleburne

Happyman42 wrote: »

I don't claim any special knowledge of the case. Here is the IRA statement though. Two sides at odds over the truth, (the unfortunate consequences of conflict) We will probably never know what actually happened and that is not unique to the McConville case, there are many many more such cases. That is why it is pointless raising one sides acts when debating the conflict. Try understanding that simple point, it was no worse than what was done elsewhere, sadly.

http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/othelem/organ/ira/ira080706.htm

We do know what happened though. The IRA murdered her and then buried her in a Bog like she was a dog.

Happyman42

Patrick Cleburne wrote: »

We do know what happened though. The IRA murdered her and then buried her in a Bog like she was a dog.

What is the disputed is the reason for her death.

Fenian Army

She was buried on a beach... there is so much myth around her death its unreal... has anyone lied and said she was killed for comforting a soldier yet?

SocSocPol

Fenian Army wrote: »

She was buried on a beach... there is so much myth around her death its unreal... has anyone lied and said she was killed for comforting a soldier yet?

No, the truth is known, she was murdered by an orgaized crime syndicate, styling itself the IRA.
She was but one of thousands murdered by these same gangsters.

Fenian Army

SocSocPol wrote: »

No, the truth is known, she was murdered by an orgaized crime syndicate, styling itself the IRA.
She was but one of thousands murdered by these same gangsters.

Hahahaha, good one

Honest opinion

Fenian Army wrote: »

Lads yiz are awfully pessimistic!

I think the leader of the nationalist people meeting her would be much more significant than her meeting with McAleese was, it will have much more real meaning.

I'm a Nationalist and i don't vote sinn feín? the two terms arn't exclusive

SocSocPol

Fenian Army wrote: »

Hahahaha, good one

Typical sneering comment from SFIRA apologist when it comes to discussing the victims of IRA violence, clearly they havn't gone away you know!:mad:

Fenian Army

Honest opinion wrote: »

I'm a Nationalist and i don't vote sinn feín? the two terms arn't exclusive

Leader of the largest nationalist/republican party I meant...

Honest opinion

Fenian Army wrote: »

Leader of the largest nationalist/republican party I meant...

Not to Nit-pick but fianna faíl are actualy the largest nationilist party in the Daíl sinn feín has less seats then them

Fenian Army

SocSocPol wrote: »

Typical sneering comment from SFIRA apologist when it comes to discussing the victims of IRA violence, clearly they haven't gone away you know!:mad:

I was laughing at you, not the unfortunate Mrs McConville, with your "crime syndicate" nonsense.

Better not look at the opinion polls or at how many ex IRA members are in elected office all over Ireland, might have a heart attack!

Strange how we always end up talking about the likes of McConville and not the victims of British violence, save for token reference to Bloody Sunday. Seems other victims don't matter, and the opinions of their families with regards to lizzie are backward, or immature... but go right on hating SF

Fenian Army

Honest opinion wrote: »

Not to Nit-pick but fianna faíl are actualy the largest nationilist party in the Daíl sinn feín has less seats then them

Leave aside the partitionist mindset (not your fault) for a moment and take in the whole picture.

Patrick Cleburne

Fenian Army wrote: »

She was buried on a beach... there is so much myth around her death its unreal... has anyone lied and said she was killed for comforting a soldier yet?

Ok, murdered with a shot to the head and then buried on a beach. Still murdered by Republican aggressors.

Patrick Cleburne

Fenian Army wrote: »

I was laughing at you, not the unfortunate Mrs McConville, with your "crime syndicate" nonsense.

Better not look at the opinion polls or at how many ex IRA members are in elected office all over Ireland, might have a heart attack!

Strange how we always end up talking about the likes of McConville and not the victims of British violence, save for token reference to Bloody Sunday. Seems other victims don't matter, and the opinions of their families with regards to lizzie are backward, or immature... but go right on hating SF

That is because people in the Irish Republic can vote for these terrorists. The British Army aren't running for any elections in the Irish Republic.

Happyman42

SocSocPol wrote: »

No, the truth is known, she was murdered by an orgaized crime syndicate, styling itself the IRA.
She was but one of thousands murdered by these same gangsters.

Mrs WInsdor doesn't talk with the leaders of organised crime syndicates...does she? :eek:


Seriously, if the handshake represents anything, it is an admission from both sides that the many regretable acts on both sides are over and that the past is the past. Mary Lou McDonalds explanation of how much Mrs Windsor's words in the Garden Of Rememberance moved the situation and relations on are worth looking up. She was speaking on a Vincent Browne programme last week.

Seanchai

SocSocPol wrote: »

The PIRA are were and always will be nothing other than a criminal gang, no better than than any other organized crime syndicate.

This is where you're fundamentally mistaken/unable to see past your tribe. The PIRA has been the most recent embodiment of the native Irish resistance to English/British rule in Ireland. Ignoring this centuries-old historical context is historical illiteracy and wishful thinking on a profound scale. Given this historical context, however, I would hope that the IRA would be "criminal" if by criminal you mean breaking English law in Ireland. Duh.

There would be pretty little point in having an IRA which wasn't going to break that foreign law. As a letter writer used to sign off to An Phoblacht back in the day: 'No Other Law'.

Ignoring the political support for the IRA throughout the conflict, particularly at times of repression and, ironically, when your fellow British attempted to take away their political status, is simply compounding your political illiteracy. The release, as part of an international political treaty, of all IRA volunteers in 1998 should have alerted you to the political credentials of the IRA. Alas, it didn't. The existence of IRA leaders in senior political positions today should also have given you a hint that your "criminal gang" analogy, while undoubtedly whetting your prejudices, is fantasy talk.

This sort of faulty head-in-the-sand logic is typical of the miscalculations of the unionist community and inability to face reality which has seen them lose an incredible amount of power since at least October 1968.

SocSocPol

Seanchai wrote: »

This is where you're fundamentally mistaken/unable to see past your tribe. The PIRA has been the most recent embodiment of the native Irish resistance to English/British rule in Ireland. Ignoring this centuries-old historical context is historical illiteracy and wishful thinking on a profound scale. Given this historical context, however, I would hope that the IRA would be "criminal" if by criminal you mean breaking English law in Ireland. Duh.

There would be pretty little point in having an IRA which wasn't going to break that foreign law. As a letter writer used to sign off to An Phoblacht back in the day: 'No Other Law'.

Ignoring the political support for the IRA throughout the conflict, particularly at times of repression and, ironically, when your fellow British attempted to take away their political status, is simply compounding your political illiteracy. The release, as part of an international political treaty, of all IRA volunteers in 1998 should have alerted you to the political credentials of the IRA. Alas, it didn't. The existence of IRA leaders in senior political positions today should also have given you a hint that your "criminal gang" analogy, while undoubtedly whetting your prejudices, is fantasy talk.

This sort of faulty head-in-the-sand logic is typical of the miscalculations of the unionist community and inability to face reality which has seen them lose an incredible amount of power since at least October 1968.

All, really? And there was I believing that the pira criminals who murdered Detective Garda Gerry McCabe were NOT released!

kincsem

Seanchai wrote: »

The existence of IRA leaders in senior political positions today

How about a list of these IRA leaders in political positions?

Patrick Cleburne

Seanchai wrote: »

This is where you're fundamentally mistaken/unable to see past your tribe. The PIRA has been the most recent embodiment of the native Irish resistance to English/British rule in Ireland. Ignoring this centuries-old historical context is historical illiteracy and wishful thinking on a profound scale. Given this historical context, however, I would hope that the IRA would be "criminal" if by criminal you mean breaking English law in Ireland. Duh.

There would be pretty little point in having an IRA which wasn't going to break that foreign law. As a letter writer used to sign off to An Phoblacht back in the day: 'No Other Law'.

Ignoring the political support for the IRA throughout the conflict, particularly at times of repression and, ironically, when your fellow British attempted to take away their political status, is simply compounding your political illiteracy. The release, as part of an international political treaty, of all IRA volunteers in 1998 should have alerted you to the political credentials of the IRA. Alas, it didn't. The existence of IRA leaders in senior political positions today should also have given you a hint that your "criminal gang" analogy, while undoubtedly whetting your prejudices, is fantasy talk.

This sort of faulty head-in-the-sand logic is typical of the miscalculations of the unionist community and inability to face reality which has seen them lose an incredible amount of power since at least October 1968.

What are you on about?

Who voted for the IRA to do all this? The IRA claimed to represent the Irish people. That was a lie.

IRA = Irish Republican Army. Who give them permission to represent all Irish people?

forfuxsake

SocSocPol wrote: »

No, the truth is known, she was murdered by an orgaized crime syndicate, styling itself the IRA.
She was but one of thousands murdered by these same gangsters.

As of word of warning from someone who has never voted Sinn Fein. When I hear people calling them 'an organised crime syndicate' or 'murdering, terrorist bastards etc' I feel much more like voting for them.

As a non-shinner, the way I see it is.

1. Martin McGuinness, love him or hate him, is deeply committed to a peaceful non-sectarian inclusive united Ireland of equals.
2. Martin McGuinness is a hard-working politician who genuinely works very hard for his constituents whatever their religious persuasion.(as evidenced by the support he received from much of unionist community in the past few years)
3. It is almost impossible to find anyone who has worked with Martin McGuinness who say will a bad word about him (this includes staff at the Education office in very unionist Bangor, Ian Paisley & Peter Robinson and members of the protestant clergy)
4. People who have a negative opinion of the man tend to lose it after spending some time with him.
5. Sinn Fein, for whatever reason, impress me most when it comes to matters of equality in issues like homosexuality, inclusion and peace-building.
6. It is hypocritical of anyone from a party who has been involved in armed struggle against the British, with the goal of independence (FF,FG and the US parties for that matter) to keep criticising Sinn Fein for the same.


The more I hear the words murderers, terrorist, sneering, evil, apologists etc , the more convinced I become that the only way to express my annoyance is with my votes.

Fenian Army

SocSocPol wrote: »

All, really? And there was I believing that the pira criminals who murdered Detective Garda Gerry McCabe were NOT released!

Its Jerry.

When someone cant even get his name right you know that they dont care about the man, but simply about bashing republicans

Fenian Army

Patrick Cleburne wrote: »

That is because people in the Irish Republic can vote for these terrorists. The British Army aren't running for any elections in the Irish Republic.

The thread is about MMG meeting the head of the BA...

SocSocPol

Fenian Army wrote: »

Its Jerry.

When someone cant even get his name right you know that they dont care about the man, but simply about bashing republicans

Go on, admit your diatribe was fundementally wrong.

Fenian Army

SocSocPol wrote: »

Go on, admit your diatribe was fundementally wrong.

Oh dear?

Which "diatribe" was this?

DevilsAdvocate

Patrick Cleburne wrote: »

What are you on about?

Who voted for the IRA to do all this? The IRA claimed to represent the Irish people. That was a lie.

IRA = Irish Republican Army. Who give them permission to represent all Irish people?

Well it certainly wasn't all Irish people, seeing as Unionists are Irish people too.

Happyman42

Patrick Cleburne wrote: »

What are you on about?

Who voted for the IRA to do all this? The IRA claimed to represent the Irish people. That was a lie.

IRA = Irish Republican Army. Who give them permission to represent all Irish people?

Ulster Freedom Fighters.....who gave them the right to represent all Ulster Freedom Fighters? :rolleyes:

Patrick Cleburne

DevilsAdvocate wrote: »

Well it certainly wasn't all Irish people, seeing as Unionists are Irish people too.

They tried to take away any Irish heritage they had. Shame on them. They never asked for permission from the Irish people in the Irish Republic if they could carry out the killings against the Ulster Scots.

Honest opinion

Fenian Army wrote: »

Leave aside the partitionist mindset (not your fault) for a moment and take in the whole picture.

Sorry i think you misunderstood me im not partionist in the least, I know overall across the island sinn feín are the biggest nationilist party i was refering to the Daíl as opposed to north and south combined but yeh i take your point. i was'nt trying to derail you.

wingsof daun

forfuxsake wrote: »

5. Sinn Fein, for whatever reason, impress me most when it comes to matters of equality in issues like homosexuality, inclusion and peace-building.

These cowards will latch onto whatever bull**** gets them votes.

fasttalkerchat

wingsof daun wrote: »

These cowards will latch onto whatever bull**** gets them votes.

They always stood up for the travelling community and they have a notoriously poor turnout.

Happyman42

wingsof daun wrote: »

These cowards will latch onto whatever bull**** gets them votes.

Standing up for homosexuals will get you votes among the fundamentalists in the North? Give me a break!

Crooked Jack

wingsof daun wrote: »

These cowards will latch onto whatever bull**** gets them votes.

"equality in issues like homosexuality, inclusion and peace-building."
These issues are bullshit to you?

SocSocPol

Perhaps someone should explain the word "equality" to Conor Murphy then.

Patrick Cleburne

SocSocPol wrote: »

Perhaps someone should explain the word "equality" to Conor Murphy then.

But they are only Protestants, they don't matter. Well that is according to the Sinn Fein propaganda.

Nodin

Patrick Cleburne wrote: »

But they are only Protestants, they don't matter. Well that is according to the Sinn Fein propaganda.

Really? You'll be able to link to that nefarious piece of propaganda I trust? That way we can all condemn it.

Happyman42

Nodin wrote: »

Really? You'll be able to link to that nefarious piece of propaganda I trust? That way we can all condemn it.

Looking forward to seeing that literature myself!

Quinzy

I assume he's referencing this: http://www.thejournal.ie/sinn-fein-minister-found-guilty-of-religious-discrimination-495007-Jun2012/

awec

Nodin wrote: »

Really? You'll be able to link to that nefarious piece of propaganda I trust? That way we can all condemn it.

Surely you condemn discrimination whether it's propagandised or not?

votecounts

Patrick Cleburne wrote: »

That is because people in the Irish Republic can vote for these terrorists. The British Terrorists aren't running for any elections in the Irish Republic.

FYP

Crooked Jack

SocSocPol wrote: »

Perhaps someone should explain the word "equality" to Conor Murphy then.

Five people went for the job, only one could get it. Is this what happens now every time somebody doesnt get what they want, they cry discrimination?
Conor Murphy looked at the candidates and picked the best one. His decision was then checked and cleared by the appointments commissioner.
Of the five people who went for the job, 4 were protestant, why arent the other three taking similar legal action.?

K-9

Crooked Jack wrote: »

Five people went for the job, only one could get it. Is this what happens now every time somebody doesnt get what they want, they cry discrimination?
Conor Murphy looked at the candidates and picked the best one. His decision was then checked and cleared by the appointments commissioner.
Of the five people who went for the job, 4 were protestant, why arent the other three taking similar legal action.?

Five people went for the job, only one could get it. Is this what happens now every time somebody doesnt get what they want, they cry discrimination?
Lord Brookeborough looked at the candidates and picked the best one. His decision was then checked and cleared by the appointments commissioner.
Of the five people who went for the job, 4 were Catholic, why arent the other three taking similar legal action.?

From 70 years ago.

getz

Crooked Jack wrote: »

Five people went for the job, only one could get it. Is this what happens now every time somebody doesnt get what they want, they cry discrimination?
Conor Murphy looked at the candidates and picked the best one. His decision was then checked and cleared by the appointments commissioner.
Of the five people who went for the job, 4 were protestant, why arent the other three taking similar legal action.?

its there in black and white,the fair employment tribunal has found that northern ireland water is guilty of discriminating against an applicant on the basis of religion,it doesent matter if the man is catholic /protestant/muslim it is discrimination.

SocSocPol

getz wrote: »

its there in black and white,the fair employment tribunal has found that northern ireland water is guilty of discriminating against an applicant on the basis of religion,it doesent matter if the man is catholic /protestant/muslim it is discrimination.

Its only discrimination when SFIRA are complaining about it, there apologists have put this down to whinging!

Happyman42

That's one case of religious discrimination.
Where is the SF propaganda and evidence that prodestants don't matter?

Crooked Jack

K-9 wrote: »

Five people went for the job, only one could get it. Is this what happens now every time somebody doesnt get what they want, they cry discrimination?
Lord Brookeborough looked at the candidates and picked the best one. His decision was then checked and cleared by the appointments commissioner.
Of the five people who went for the job, 4 were Catholic, why arent the other three taking similar legal action.?

From 70 years ago.

Great way to dodge the actual question I asked.

K-9

Crooked Jack wrote: »

Great way to dodge the actual question I asked.

Nobody asked me a question to dodge so no sirree!, just pointing out how you dodged the point about Murphy. The guy was found guilty of discrimination, discrimination is still shameful and wrong whether it be a Shinner doing it or a member of a Protestant Government for Protestant people. You have a problem with that point?

awec

Crooked Jack wrote: »

Five people went for the job, only one could get it. Is this what happens now every time somebody doesnt get what they want, they cry discrimination?
Conor Murphy looked at the candidates and picked the best one. His decision was then checked and cleared by the appointments commissioner.
Of the five people who went for the job, 4 were protestant, why arent the other three taking similar legal action.?

This is brilliant. Clearly the irony is lost on you.

SF and their mates were masters of playing the discrimination card for years.

Happyman42 wrote: »

That's one case of religious discrimination.
Where is the SF propaganda and evidence that prodestants don't matter?

Where's your condemnation?

Crooked Jack wrote: »

Great way to dodge the actual question I asked.

Yea, you also did brilliantly at avoiding having to condemn SF for blatant discrimination. It's there in black and white.