Martin McGuinness to meet Britain's queen

R P McMurphy

realies wrote: »

Now patrick can you please explain how cavan,monaghan and donegal are occupied ? And do you know the most northern part of northern Ireland is in the south

was Cavan not ceded under Bertie's reign?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6py-JbDHgUc

DEFTLEFTHAND

They better film it, I want evidence Dammit!! :mad:

Biggins

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

Its time we forgot our horrid past and try to move forward. Not saying we should not remember the dead, but we cant go back thinking about the past when it comes to trying to do whats best for Northern Ireland.

If we do then we will never move forward.

The past might not be allowed be forgotten.

Something that the world seems to have missed: Secret Troubles memo could prompt fresh legal action
Minutes of 1972 meeting amount to 'policy of impunity' for aggression by British soldiers, say human rights groups.

Dated Monday 10 July 1972, the three-page paper lists "conclusions" of a meeting immediately following the breakdown of the Provisional IRA's two-week-long truce.

It notes that Whitelaw would reveal the existence of the clandestine talks, "put the blame for the ending of the 'truce' fairly and squarely on the Provisionals who must now take the consequences", and "announce the government's intention to carry on the war with the IRA with the utmost vigour".

It added: "The GOC would see UDA [the loyalist paramilitary Ulster Defence Association] leaders and impress upon them that while their efforts as vigilantes in their own areas were acceptable, their presence in any riot or shooting situation could not be tolerated."

In terms of military response, it ordered that: "The army should not be inhibited in its campaign by the threat of court proceedings and should therefore be suitably indemnified."

"The consequences of the document should permeate a lot of their investigations. It potentially strengthens grounds for fresh inquests. It could generate a huge amount of legal proceedings. If that was the mindset ... it would be grounds for a series of [out of time] civil actions for unlawful killings."

Fratton Fred

Biggins wrote: »

Happyman said

SF has seen to it that no Irish man or woman will ever have to bow and scrape to the likes of Tebbit or Mrs Windsor ever again.

I asked when they did.

Have you ever bowed or scraped before either of them? do you know anyone who has, because I certainly don't.

I find this chest beating triumphalist rhetoric quite amusing, but I suppose the knuckle dragging grass roots elements of the SF support find it quite emotional.

Biggins

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Happyman said

I asked when they did.

Have you ever bowed or scraped before either of them? do you know anyone who has, because I certainly don't.

I find this chest beating triumphalist rhetoric quite amusing, but I suppose the knuckle dragging grass roots elements of the SF support find it quite emotional.

Maybe there was no actual "bowing and scraping" but instead Irish civilians will just have to get over the water-boarding and torturing instead!

Fratton Fred

Biggins wrote: »

Maybe there was no actual "bowing and scraping" but instead Irish civilians will just have to get over the water-boarding and torturing instead!

With all due respect Biggins, that's a bit of a silly statement isn't it.

Happy Monday

Happyman42 wrote: »

This is the same kind of provocative rubbish that Tebbit came out with. No better than the sectarian chants and taunts on the 12th.
What he doesn't admit is that this is as much a nessecary compromise on Mrs Windsor's part as it is on McG's and SF's. It's a huge climb down for the British too. They tried to get it done on free Irish soil but SF where too wily for them on that score.
That it was going to happen eventually, everyone, with half a brain or scintilla of political awareness, knew. This is part of the choreography around the GFA agreement, they were even mentioning the possibility of an Irish visit back then, so anxious where they to get the deal done and enshrined.
SF's timing and resistance to being forced into this internationl window dressing has been very satisfying. To get it done now, at such a low key and private event, is very astute and responsible on SF's part imo, considering how emotive it is potentially.
It contrasts dramatically the rabble rousing and irresponsible words of the likes of Tebbit. It was his kind of ingrained superiority and bigotry the Irish were up against.
McG is there as an equal, she will shake hands with somebody who showed that he would not lie prostrate to her or any of her forces. SHE has to shake the hand of the man who supported the taking out of her Prime Minister and Tebbit. He and SF and the IRA won the right to be there as equal partners in government, despite oppression and subjugation. They stood up and where counted, at tremendous cost.
But look around you, with open eyes, take the Union Jack partitionist blinkers off and you will see that the sarcrifice was worth it. SF has seen to it that no Irish man or woman will ever have to bow and scrape to the likes of Tebbit or Mrs Windsor ever again. That's a happy day for me.

So you don't view the North as free Irish soil.
Hard to understand what Lord Londonderry McGuinness fought all these years for then.

Nodin

Happy Monday wrote: »

So you don't view the North as free Irish soil.
Hard to understand what Lord Londonderry McGuinness fought all these years for then.

Are you looking for attention?

Biggins

Fratton Fred wrote: »

With all due respect Biggins, that's a bit of a silly statement isn't it.

With respect - its something instead that many will have to get over and by the shaking of hands soon, that action is another step forward.

In a 24 hour period of time when a Turkish plane has been shot down by Syria - in other words, troubles are continuing elsewhere to say the least, any movement towards conciliation, further peace in the world, cementing it even more and ending the begrudging and bitterness between once two irritated sides, is always good.

..and my reply here Fratton Fred, is not just addressed to your good self.

Happy Monday

Nodin wrote: »

Are you looking for attention?

Are you part of the nutting squad??
McG and his type spent decades condemning people down here who sought peace in the North.
And now they expect people to congratulate them when they finally accept British rule in Ireland and its trappings.
No deal baby - Lord Londonderry can f**k right off.

Nodin

Happy Monday wrote: »

Are you part of the nutting squad??
McG and his type spent decades condemning people down here who sought peace in the North.
And now they expect people to congratulate them when they finally accept British rule in Ireland and its trappings.
No deal baby - Lord Londonderry can f**k right off.

So you are looking for attention.

You know the http://www.ispca.ie/ is always looking for homes for animals. One of those could give you the kind of non-judgemental love you need.

Happy Monday

Nodin wrote: »

So you are looking for attention.

You know the http://www.ispca.ie/ is always looking for homes for animals. One of those could give you the kind of non-judgemental love you need.

There is a striking resemblance between some of those dogs and the President of Sinn Fein.

You reckon Gerry models his bearded appearance on some of those muts.

"I didn't interupt you Fido please don't interupt me"

Nodin

Happy Monday wrote: »

There is a striking resemblance between some of those dogs and the President of Sinn Fein.

You reckon Gerry models his bearded appearance on some of those muts.

"I didn't interupt you Fido please don't interupt me"

Yep, a dog, or maybe a cat would do. A cat first, I think, as they won't be as needy.

K-9

Biggins wrote: »

Maybe there was no actual "bowing and scraping" but instead Irish civilians will just have to get over the water-boarding and torturing instead!

Loads of people have to get over loads of events. I remember reading about Castlereagh, the abuse that went on there eventually led to the ECHR condemnation referred to in the first article. Terribel abuse in a "civilised" country.

People should remember the atrocities carried out by the IRA as well because these events tend to be circular.

Happy Monday

Nodin wrote: »

Yep, a dog, or maybe a cat would do. A cat first, I think, as they won't be as needy.

Now boys as part of your final surrender to Her Majesty could you paint those pavements red, white and blue. Bunting is an optional extra. And please don't speak an teanga naisunta while the Queen is in your presence. But you can't speak that anyway. You without realising it buddy are the reason why those of us in the Republic of Ireland wish you the very best of luck in your United Kingdom north of our border. :pac:

Nodin

Happy Monday wrote: »

Now boys as part of your final surrender to Her Majesty could you paint those pavements red, white and blue. Bunting is an optional extra. And please don't speak an teanga naisunta while the Queen is in your presence. But you can't speak that anyway. You without realising it buddy are the reason why those of us in the Republic of Ireland wish you the very best of luck in your United Kingdom north of our border. :pac:

Yep, its good to see hard political analysis and mature comment is still with us.

billybudd

Happy Monday wrote: »

Now boys as part of your final surrender to Her Majesty could you paint those pavements red, white and blue. Bunting is an optional extra. And please don't speak an teanga naisunta while the Queen is in your presence. But you can't speak that anyway. You without realising it buddy are the reason why those of us in the Republic of Ireland wish you the very best of luck in your United Kingdom north of our border. :pac:

Its Ireland. Is amadán tusa.

Happy Monday

Nodin wrote: »

Yep, its good to see hard political analysis and mature comment is still with us.

You and I have been on this site for 4 years.
I have made 800 posts and you have made 17,000.
I imagine it's you buddy who would want to spend less time on here and more time in the real world and not me a chairde.

Happy Monday

billybudd wrote: »

Its Ireland. Is amadán tusa.

Republic of Ireland courtesy of the 1949 Act.

billybudd

Happy Monday wrote: »

Republic of Ireland courtesy of the 1949 Act.

That is the desription of the state, the states name is Eire/Ireland. Is amadán tusa

Happyman42

Fratton Fred wrote: »

So when did an Irish person have to now before the Queen or Norman Tebbit then?

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Happyman said

I asked when they did.

Have you ever bowed or scraped before either of them? do you know anyone who has, because I certainly don't.

I find this chest beating triumphalist rhetoric quite amusing, but I suppose the knuckle dragging grass roots elements of the SF support find it quite emotional.

As you no doubt know Fred, just like there are many ways to skin a cat, there are many ways to bow and scrape. Maintaining 'their' border without demanding that they put right the obvious (even at the time) discrimination and oppression being just one of the ways. Had the Irish government properly stood up for our fellow country men and women the situation would not have gone up in flames the way it did.

Would you have any criticism for Tebbit and what he had to say at all? Or are you still in thrall?

Happy Monday wrote: »

So you don't view the North as free Irish soil.
Hard to understand what Lord Londonderry McGuinness fought all these years for then.

What McG has achieved is equality of esteem and opportunity for his supporters and the right for the majority to decide their future. His actions and the campaign has been vindicated by no less than Mrs Windsor. That act of 'treason' by Mrs W is why the still smarting Tebbit feels the need to give voice to his bigotry. He is behaving like the worst rabble of the Orange Order. Expect many more of the bigots to emerge from their hiding holes as the event approaches.
Nowhere have SF said that they have given up the aim of a United Ireland, and looking at the way they have manouvered the Crown I expect they will achieve that.

conor.hogan.2

billybudd wrote: »

That is the desription of the state, the states name is Eire/Ireland. Is amadán tusa

Éire/Ireland not Eire/Ireland and is amadán thú sounds more natural and not forced.

The British use "Eire" not "Éire".

Happy Monday

billybudd wrote: »

That is the desription of the state, the states name is Eire/Ireland. Is amadán tusa

Description not desription.
That is what I am saying - the name of my country is the Republic of Ireland.
The other country on this island - Northern Ireland - is part of the United Kingdom.

billybudd

conor.hogan.2 wrote: »

Éire/Ireland not Eire/Ireland and is amadán thú sounds more natural and not forced.

The British use "Eire" not "Éire".

Ha! so i forgot a fada, as for Is amadán tusa, thats just how it is.

Snowie

Biggins wrote: »

If he don't meet her ye would be giving out.
If he does meet her - ye are giving out!

Some people are never bloody happy.

Its a step forwards - instead of backwards for gods sake!

Or better still fvck of out irish politics and disappear...
I wouldn't condemn them for either of the options

Id condemn them because there all a bunch of fvckin retards and can't stand them id rather bertie run this country then any of them hench men :mad:

Nodin

What are "bench men"?

Snowie

Nodin wrote: »

What are "bench men"?

Hench auto correct FML :mad:

Happyman42

Snowie wrote: »

Or better still fvck of out irish politics and disappear...
I wouldn't condemn them for either of the options

Id condemn them because there all a bunch of fvckin retards and can't stand them id rather bertie run this country then any of them bench men :mad:

I think you'll find the 'retards' are those who ignore or deny what happened here on this island. Sorry to burst your image of yourself but everyone on this island has a responsibility as a citizen. That many chose to ignore that responsibility and who get in the way of putting things right and on an equal terms, is the great tragedy. Condemm all you want but nobody is going to capitulate to cowardly inferiority complexes.
'Retards' indeed, maybe you should ring Tebbit and have a moan to him.:rolleyes:

arybvtcw0eolkf

conor.hogan.2 wrote: »

Éire/Ireland not Eire/Ireland and is amadán thú sounds more natural and not forced.

The British use "Eire" not "Éire".

I remember an extradition case here (latemid to late 80's) which was refused because of the same spelling/grammar error, it was like giving to fingers to the authorities seeking the extradition of an Irish man to the UK

Biggins

I requote something that someone had the decently to think and share in the English Times:

In today's papers they mention that Aung San Suu Kyi is quoted as saying “It’s right to invite him because we don’t want to be shackled by the past” when asked for her views on inviting to Britain the general who kept her under house arrest.

We have to move on and we have to learn perhaps the hardest lesson of all - it is with your enemies, not your friends, that you have to make peace.

Amen.

Snowie

Happyman42 wrote: »

I think you'll find the 'retards' are those who ignore or deny what happened here on this island. Sorry to burst your image of yourself but everyone on this island has a responsibility as a citizen. That many chose to ignore that responsibility and who get in the way of putting things right and on an equal terms, is the great tragedy. Condemm all you want but nobody is going to capitulate to cowardly inferiority complexes.
'Retards' indeed, maybe you should ring Tebbit and have a moan to him.:rolleyes:

Well said how ever...


I just don't really care.. I don't see it as something that will ever effect me... The only thing I see is something that a bunch of angry far right ira heads get very upset about it and use it as an excuse to ease there ugly heads. in some triumphant gargaduant attempt at making every day peoples life even more difficult.

Hence why **** like that shouldn't be broadcasted...

but hey jump to what ever guns you like...

Crooked Jack

Snowie wrote: »

Well said how ever...


I just don't really care.. I don't see it as something that will ever effect me... The only thing I see is something that a bunch of angry far right ira heads get very upset about it and use it as an excuse to ease there ugly heads. in some triumphant gargaduant attempt at making every day peoples life even more difficult.

Hence why **** like that shouldn't be broadcasted...

but hey jump to what ever guns you like...

You're not really making much sense. You "dont really care" yet here you are making angry impassioned posts about it.
You dont think it will ever effect you yet you think it will make peoples lives more difficult.
You think the IRA, an organisation whose main aim was to bring a bout a democratic socialist republic are "far right."
I dont know what "easing their ugly heads means" or what it has to do with this thread and Im totally at a loss over the word gargaduant.
Then you end with the equally baffling "but hey jump to what ever guns you like."

What exactly are you on about?

Happyman42

Snowie wrote: »

Well said how ever...


I just don't really care.. I don't see it as something that will ever effect me... The only thing I see is something that a bunch of angry far right ira heads get very upset about it and use it as an excuse to ease there ugly heads. in some triumphant gargaduant attempt at making every day peoples life even more difficult.

Hence why **** like that shouldn't be broadcasted...

but hey jump to what ever guns you like...

Do get back to us when you graduate to real life.

DeBrugha

That is what I am saying - the name of my country is the Republic of Ireland.
The other country on this island - Northern Ireland - is part of the United Kingdom.

Ireland is Ireland - its always been like that for thousands of years apart from the last 90 years just blink of time.

Happy Monday

DeBrugha wrote: »

Ireland is Ireland - its always been like that for thousands of years apart from the last 90 years just blink of time.

In reality it hasn't.
The concept of a unified Irish political entity is a relatively new one.
For many centuries Ireland was split into separate kingdoms - Ulster, Connaught, Munster, Leinster and Tara. These provinces were subdivided into separate holdings as well.

conor.hogan.2

Happy Monday wrote: »

In reality it hasn't.
The concept of a unified Irish political entity is a relatively new one.
For many centuries Ireland was split into separate kingdoms - Ulster, Connaught, Munster, Leinster and Tara. These provinces were subdivided into separate holdings as well.

What language did they all speak though?

Aya Old-fashioned Bay wrote: »

I remember an extradition case here (latemid to late 80's) which was refused because of the same spelling/grammar error, it was like giving to fingers to the authorities seeking the extradition of an Irish man to the UK

I didn't know that story but it makes sense, the British deliberately uses Eire with no fada instead of Éire or even Ireland as a political point after the treaty/constitution.

somairle

Happy Monday wrote: »

In reality it hasn't.
The concept of a unified Irish political entity is a relatively new one.
For many centuries Ireland was split into separate kingdoms - Ulster, Connaught, Munster, Leinster and Tara. These provinces were subdivided into separate holdings as well.

This. Ireland was never a united country in the sense as we see it today, the people spoke Irish but that was coincidental in the same way English happened to be the language I was brought up with. The people wouldnt have felt pride for Ireland, they would have felt pride for their Kingdom or locality. Ironically, the British created the Kingdom of Ireland for the first time. This is not to say they wouldnt have felt pride in Ireland were that society still functining today, but the world was a lot smaller then.

I think we need to build a bridge with the UK and get over it. Martin McGuinness, who was part of an organisation that murdered innocent people on its path, is meeting the head of an army that murdered innocent people on is path. Its time for reconsiliation in my opinion.

Long term, a united Ireland, one of the main goals of Sinn Féin, is only achievable with he consent of unionists who have been here hundreds of years and are as much as part of Irish history and culture as anyone else. Look a Protestants in the south they are a happy part of modern Ireland, but the protestants in the North have been pitted against Catholics for so long and created such a divide. Sinn Féin know this and this is why they have agreed to it, its part of their long term strategy.

Them vs us has only widened the gap, it hasnt worked. In my personal opinion we all need to drop religion and then work on the political differences, we would be much stronger together as one at peace.

Happyman42

Happy Monday wrote: »

In reality it hasn't.
The concept of a unified Irish political entity is a relatively new one.
For many centuries Ireland was split into separate kingdoms - Ulster, Connaught, Munster, Leinster and Tara. These provinces were subdivided into separate holdings as well.

The lenghts a partitionist will go to in order to convince themselves that they have no responsibility or connection. Carry on. :rolleyes:

Chuck Stone

I'm sure Mrs. Windsor will have nothing but respect that MMcG will meet her. Let's not forget that MMcG represents people who had first hand experience of the crown forces and their proxies beating and murdering their fellow Catholics for little more than wanting to exercise their democratic right to seek equality.

Patrick Cleburne

Happy Monday wrote: »

In reality it hasn't.
The concept of a unified Irish political entity is a relatively new one.
For many centuries Ireland was split into separate kingdoms - Ulster, Connaught, Munster, Leinster and Tara. These provinces were subdivided into separate holdings as well.

Yep. People don't know the history. People would like to return to that.

Fratton Fred

Chuck Stone wrote: »

I'm sure Mrs. Windsor will have nothing but respect that MMcG will meet her. Let's not forget that MMcG represents people who had first hand experience of the crown forces and their proxies beating and murdering their fellow Catholics for little more than wanting to exercise their democratic right to seek equality.

that gives them something in common then. The Queen represents people who know first hand the cowardly murdering ways of McGuinness and his cronies. I guess they will have lots to talk about.

Varied

Fratton Fred wrote: »

that gives them something in common then. The Queen represents people who know first hand the cowardly murdering ways of McGuinness and his cronies. I guess they will have lots to talk about.

Not really a valid argument when you're an oppressive, colluding with loyalist deathsquad, occupying bunch of thugs. Also remember that your public TV service suppressed much of what was going on in the North, So your people know **** all in fairness.

Happy Monday

Happyman42 wrote: »

The lenghts a partitionist will go to in order to convince themselves that they have no responsibility or connection. Carry on. :rolleyes:

Partitionist - lol! -

An Irish nationalist my friend.

But like many people down south a nation built on the consent of all of its people.

Partition was sealed by Adams and McG in 1998 when they signed the GFA.

A united Ireland should on come about with the consent all of the people.

Happy Monday

Chuck Stone wrote: »

I'm sure Mrs. Windsor will have nothing but respect that MMcG will meet her. Let's not forget that MMcG represents people who had first hand experience of the crown forces and their proxies beating and murdering their fellow Catholics for little more than wanting to exercise their democratic right to seek equality.

I'll think you'll find that the IRA killed many more Catholics than the Army.

Chuck Stone

Fratton Fred wrote: »

that gives them something in common then. The Queen represents people who know first hand the cowardly murdering ways of McGuinness and his cronies. I guess they will have lots to talk about.

Of course they've plenty in common...

... if you completely ignore the history of British/Unionist terrorism, disdain for democracy, violent suppression of civil rights movements and penchant for sectarianism that led people to feel they had no other option but to take up weapons.

Please.

Fratton Fred

Varied wrote: »

Not really a valid argument when you're an oppressive, colluding with loyalist deathsquad, occupying bunch of thugs. Also remember that your public TV service suppressed much of what was going on in the North, So your people know **** all in fairness.

the Queen is a thug, or British people in general?

Fratton Fred

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Of course they've plenty in common...

... if you completely ignore the history of British/Unionist terrorism, disdain for democracy, violent suppression of civil rights movements and penchant for sectarianism that led people to feel they had no other option but to take up weapons.

Please.

Please indeed.

Since when did Marty give a **** about democracy?

Chuck Stone

Happy Monday wrote: »

I'll think you'll find that the IRA killed many more Catholics than the Army.

What an utterly useless statistic if it's even true.

Here are more interesting statistics for you.

The BA and 'Loyalists' were far more indiscriminate when it came to murdering civilians.

IRA ~35%
BA ~50%
'Loyalist' death gangs ~85% (a paltry 4% were republicans despite collusion).

What does that say for the class of man the BA recruited?

Chuck Stone

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Since when did Marty give a **** about democracy?

I guess when you're a young man growing up watching your neighbours being battered and shot dead for seeking equality by democratic means you may not believe that the ballot box alone will suffice.

Patrick Cleburne

Varied wrote: »

Not really a valid argument when you're an oppressive, colluding with loyalist deathsquad, occupying bunch of thugs. Also remember that your public TV service suppressed much of what was going on in the North, So your people know **** all in fairness.

The IRA wanted everyone in Ulster to join a state which was run by the Roman Catholic Church which is famous for buggering young children and forced its religious beliefs into law and was oppressive to the secular and Atheists of the Irish Republic.

Trying to move a full Island under control of the biggest paedophilia organisation on the planet and to inflict mass amounts of torture on the young children all over the Island by this oppressive and evil criminal gang.

Thankfully they never succeeded and never will.