Boards Law Reform

MagicSean

I have an idea for a group activity for the discussion board. Just want to see if people would be interested. The basic idea is for us to come up with our own constitutional and legislation reforms and agree upon it's wording. Just as an example, you often hear people go on about legalising marijuana, but how exactly would you do it? Would you withdraw all drugs legislation, would you legalise simple posession etc? Maybe we could start with something more simplistic like a specific article in the constitution or perhaps even the preamble. how would you reword the preamble if you were rewriting the constitution?

Like i said, I don't know if people would find it interesting but i thought I'd throw it out there.

Farcear

Before you do that, maybe you need to clarify a few bigger picture questions:

1) Seriousness -- Are you trying to undertake this is a "serious" exercise with a view to possibly influencing legislation at some point or is this just a hypothetical intellectual exercise?

2) Policy -- Are you looking at proposing fresh legislation on controversial topics which involves fairly fundamental policy and value choices from the drafter, e.g. the legislation of controlled substances, or are you just trying to identify specific areas of law that are "broken" on which all people can agree, e.g. criminal law is quite fragmented and could use a consolidation bill.

source

We should start by removing all reference to religion from the preamble . Separate the state from the catholic church for once and for all.

MagicSean

Farcear wrote: »

Before you do that, maybe you need to clarify a few bigger picture questions:

1) Seriousness -- Are you trying to undertake this is a "serious" exercise with a view to possibly influencing legislation at some point or is this just a hypothetical intellectual exercise?

I don't see why it couldnt be done seriously. Don't know about influencing the masses though.

Farcear wrote: »

2) Policy -- Are you looking at proposing fresh legislation on controversial topics which involves fairly fundamental policy and value choices from the drafter, e.g. the legislation of controlled substances, or are you just trying to identify specific areas of law that are "broken" on which all people can agree, e.g. criminal law is quite fragmented and could use a consolidation bill.

I hadn't really thought about it past the constitution, which would be a simple matter of submitting rewrites of articles and then voting on it.

source wrote: »

We should start by removing all reference to religion from the preamble . Separate the state from the catholic church for once and for all.

I'd agree.

johnnyskeleton

They should increase the penalty, and standard, for section 3 assault.

It is wrong that someone can give out a fair beating (which doesn't cause a risk of death, loss of bodily member/organ or serious disfigurement) can be sentenced to a maximum of 5 years. 10 in my view is more reasonable.

Equally, a bruise or cut should only be section 2 assault.

The special criminal court should be abolished, not (as is currently the trend) extended.

The right against self incrimination is an absolute one and inferences should never be drawn from silence.

They Gould increase the number of circuit and high court judges and impose laws similar to the us that where someone in custody demands a speedy trial, they must be tried within 6 months or else be released.

The rsa or some other quango should be redeployed to dealing with minor road traffic, thus freeing up more gardai for serious criminal investigation.

They should make provision for more prisons or, in the alternative, increase the alternatives to prison for minor persistent offenders eg withdrawal of welfare benefits.

That sort of thing?

MagicSean

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

They should increase the penalty, and standard, for section 3 assault.

It is wrong that someone can give out a fair beating (which doesn't cause a risk of death, loss of bodily member/organ or serious disfigurement) can be sentenced to a maximum of 5 years. 10 in my view is more reasonable.

Equally, a bruise or cut should only be section 2 assault.

The special criminal court should be abolished, not (as is currently the trend) extended.

The right against self incrimination is an absolute one and inferences should never be drawn from silence.

They Gould increase the number of circuit and high court judges and impose laws similar to the us that where someone in custody demands a speedy trial, they must be tried within 6 months or else be released.

The rsa or some other quango should be redeployed to dealing with minor road traffic, thus freeing up more gardai for serious criminal investigation.

They should make provision for more prisons or, in the alternative, increase the alternatives to prison for minor persistent offenders eg withdrawal of welfare benefits.

That sort of thing?

I hadn't really worked it out beyong the constitutional example. But i suppose it would be like that but more focused. If i take your non-fatal example, if a person is cut with a weapon should it still be section 2? Should it be arrestable? Should assault with a weapon be a seperate offence? Do we maybe need more categories of assault instead of just Section 2,3 or 4?

FreudianSlippers

MagicSean wrote: »

I have an idea for a group activity for the discussion board. Just want to see if people would be interested. The basic idea is for us to come up with our own constitutional and legislation reforms and agree upon it's wording. Just as an example, you often hear people go on about legalising marijuana, but how exactly would you do it? Would you withdraw all drugs legislation, would you legalise simple posession etc? Maybe we could start with something more simplistic like a specific article in the constitution or perhaps even the preamble. how would you reword the preamble if you were rewriting the constitution?

Like i said, I don't know if people would find it interesting but i thought I'd throw it out there.

I think it sounds like a good idea. It's often done in Infrastructure; they have "crayon" threads where they moot the designs of various alternatives or visions of infrastructure projects.

I'm not sure how we would pull it of practically; perhaps we could put in a few suggestions for topics and each week we could pick one topic and have a stickied thread dedicated to that topic - i.e. week 1 is the constituion; 2 is drugs; 3 is immigration; etc.?

mikemac1

My proposal is restriction of travel across the EU for those who have not finished their sentance.

A man has been sentenced for falsely imprisoning a cable TV salesman after waiting at home for two days for an engineer from the company to show up.

Dariusz Pelc (38) threatened to cut the UPC salesman’s fingers off and later told him he would kill him if his broadband wasn’t installed within 24 hours.

ordered to return to his native Poland to serve an outstanding two-year sentence for threatening behaviour.

Pelc has a history of using violence against others.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2012/0622/breaking42.html

He should have not been here in the first place!


At the same time this may mean Larry Murphy is ordered to remain here, he got early release so take the passport until the sentence is over
When the sentence is over he can get back the passport


This will probably have to be decided by the ECJ and I wouldn't understand it fully but I'll read up on it.

No free travel around Europe while you sentance is not finished

tayto lover

Serious offences should be recorded on Passports and failure to disclose should mean a mandatory expulsion after a jail sentence. Too many sex offenders here and the Gardai don't know their history.

Manach

Offhand, from a historical POV,
- retain religious references.
- remove the provision of special criminal courts.
- insert a clause to prevent parties being funded by the State or imposing gender quotas.

A year earlier I'd have mentioned a balanced budget

jblack

We could use a live Bill as a basis for this exercise?

- this would allow access to the current Bills whereupon suggestions and insights could be made regarding drafted provisions
- transcripts of the debates in both houses are readily available online
- it's also very useful for seeing how Dept of Finance, Dept of Ed etc interact with the oireachtas and amend proposals, force agendas and pander to political influence

- Having a similar piece of legislation in another jurisdiction for comparison would give insight into the traps and workings.

My own opinion on this would be if we went down the drugs/abortion or any other highly controversial route we'd end up getting derailed very quickly by keyboard facists/communists, freemen, etc.

Great idea though - imagine the exercise had some effect?

MagicSean

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

I think it sounds like a good idea. It's often done in Infrastructure; they have "crayon" threads where they moot the designs of various alternatives or visions of infrastructure projects.

I'm not sure how we would pull it of practically; perhaps we could put in a few suggestions for topics and each week we could pick one topic and have a stickied thread dedicated to that topic - i.e. week 1 is the constituion; 2 is drugs; 3 is immigration; etc.?

Exactly. Could keep it topical too. Like with the upcoming referendum we could have a look at the personal rights section of the constitution.

krd

MagicSean wrote: »

Would you withdraw all drugs legislation, would you legalise simple posession etc?

A good example, would be the headshops....before the Vintners Association cottoned on to what they were at.

The drugs were of a very high quality, and there was little to no, criminal or social problems from their activity.

The deaths, violence and destruction the Vintners are responsible makes even the nastiest heroin epidemic pale into insignificance.

How many times were the Garda called to break up a fight outside a headshop?

How many times have the Garda ever been called out to restrain a violent marijuana smoker?

Thousands in Ireland die through alcohol abuse every year - and we are yet to see one of the dealers in death behind bars.....I mean prison bars......We see them behind their bars every night and day.

Maybe we could start with something more simplistic like a specific article in the constitution or perhaps even the preamble. how would you reword the preamble if you were rewriting the constitution?

Every citizen of the republic is entitled to absolute sovereignty over the use of their body. And to pursue happiness and liberty as they see fit.

This would hit the abortion and drug use nail on the head.

At the moment we're just seen as a captive market for the Vintners to milk us like cattle, will poisonings us with their dangerous product. Sunday Independent mass going B*****s

Like i said, I don't know if people would find it interesting but i thought I'd throw it out there.

Holland make at least 50 billion a year out of weed - The Canadians are making something like 60 billion a year. We could get out of jail really quickly if we legalised the farming of weed here.......Or at least if there was a concerted effort to turn a blind eye to the industry. In Canada. If a house(weed farm) is about to be raided, they send a letter to the householder saying that they suspect them of growing weed, and they will be around in 48 hours to check the house out. And here, we're sending entrepreneurs to jail

MagicSean

Thanks for that pointless rant. It did not contribute to the thread in any way.

johnnyskeleton

MagicSean wrote: »

Thanks for that pointless rant. It did not contribute to the thread in any way.

I suppose the more general argument is should we punish something that doesn't, on a superficial glance at least, cause a significant amount of harm to individual users or should we criminalise alcohol because it does cause those problems.

I have always been against the smoking ban because I don't think the government should be criminalising behaviour which, although potentially harmful, people also enjoy.

I think the amount of regulatory offences the government keeps coming out with is an abuse of power. Peoples norms should dictate the law rather than the law dictating peoples norms.

amen

All fines should be percentage salary/income based.

MagicSean

I chose a topic for the first discussion based on a thread I read today.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=80304588#post80304588

Just posting it here for people who were following this thread.