Irishman (19) tortured and sentenced to death in 1973, now declared innocent.

Seanchai

This is a truly incredible story which sent a shiver down my spine. Oddly, a search of Boards.ie for 'Liam Holden' has no results, even though he was declared innocent only yesterday, 40 years after he was first tortured by the British Parachute Regiment. So much for those unthinking people who support capital punishment.

In 1972 19-year-old Liam Holden was arrested and tortured during interrogation by British military "peacekeepers". At the same time, torture was widely practised upon the native Irish nationalist community as a result of Operation Demetrius (Internment) from August 1971. (In 1976 the European Commission on Human Rights, in a case taken by the Irish state against the British state, concluded that a policy of 'torture' was carried out against the nationalist community at this time. Source (p.90); Source (p.61))

In 1973, when the death penalty was made illegal in the North (it had been illegal in Britain since the 1960s), Liam Holden's sentence was committed to life in prison. He spent 17 years in prison and was released in 1989. Liam Holden is today a widowed 58-year-old father of two adult children living in Belfast.

I follow events relating to the North relatively closely but have never heard of Liam Holden. How many more such horror cases have still to be made public?

---

1. Army 'waterboarding victim' who spent 17 years in jail is cleared of murder: Quashing of Liam Holden's 1973 conviction may lead to appeals by others interrogated during the Troubles

2. Last ever UK death sentence conviction quashed (you can hear Liam Holden here)

Read this: 'Mr Holden was 19 and working as a chef when he was taken from his home and brought to an Army post at Blackmountain school, where he was held for almost five hours...."By the time they were finished with me I would have admitted to killing JFK," he said in an interview earlier this week. Mr Holden said he was subjected to sustained torture and then threatened that he would be shot if he did not confess to the killing.
"Then six soldiers came into the cubicle where I was being held and grabbed me. "They held me down on the floor and one of them placed a towel over my face, and they got water and they started pouring the water through the towel all round my face, very slowly.
"After a while you can't get your breath but you still try to get your breath, so when you were trying to breathe in through your mouth you are sucking the water in, and if you try to breathe in through your nose, you are sniffing the water in. It was continual, a slow process, and at the end of it you basically feel like you are suffocating."

Mr Holden said he eventually confessed after he was threatened with being shot.'

3. Death sentence man Liam Holden: 'I was tortured into a false confession'

4. Liam Holden, Given Death Sentence For Murder Of Frank Bell, Has Conviction Quashed

5.Murder verdict of man sentenced to death quashed

juan.kerr

Seanchai wrote: »

How many more such horror cases have still to be made public?

Indeed, can I assume that we agree both sides committed horrors that haven't been made public? How many other Jean McConvilles are we not aware of?

gurramok

juan.kerr wrote: »

Indeed, can I assume that we agree both sides committed horrors that haven't been made public? How many other Jean McConvilles are we not aware of?

Yes both side, we know well what horrors the IRA\Loyalists committed. Whats not public is what the British Army did, cover ups for 40yrs+ on atrocities. We can't damage their squeaky clean brand.:(

Red Hand

Ye're out in numbers tonight.:D

juan.kerr

gurramok wrote: »

Yes both side, we know well what horrors the IRA\Loyalists committed.

I find it hard to believer we know everything. For example IRA involvement in drug dealing & importation.

gurramok wrote: »

Whats not public is what the British Army did, cover ups for 40yrs+ on atrocities. We can't damage their squeaky clean brand.

I'd be surprised if anyone on the island of Ireland thought the British Army was 'squeaky clean'. Perhaps you have heard about a little known incident generally referred to as 'Bloody Sunday'?

Logical Fallacy

juan.kerr wrote: »

I find it hard to believer we know everything. For example IRA involvement in drug dealing & importation.

The worst thing about this are the members of the public who genuinely believe the IRA want to stamp out the drug trade. They just want to control it.

gurramok

juan.kerr wrote: »

I find it hard to believer we know everything. For example IRA involvement in drug dealing & importation.

Well, most people believe what they read in the media, I trust the Gardai down here would be in the know on whats correct on this topic rather than a Sindo journo.

juan.kerr wrote: »

I'd be surprised if anyone on the island of Ireland thought the British Army was 'squeaky clean'. Perhaps you have heard about a little known incident generally referred to as 'Bloody Sunday'?

It took 40 years to acknowledge those murders. A few hundred more including the ones involving collusion have not been acknowledged at all, those who died were unarmed civilians by the way.

policarp

juan.kerr wrote: »

Indeed, can I assume that we agree both sides committed horrors that haven't been made public? How many other Jean McConvilles are we not aware of?

Indeed is right, but I would have thought that the crown forces should have been more disciplined than an illegal organisation. . .

Nodin

juan.kerr wrote: »

I find it hard to believer we know everything. For example IRA involvement in drug dealing & importation.
......

Despite decades of allegations, no charges, convictions or evidence.

Jorah

gurramok wrote: »

Yes both side, we know well what horrors the IRA\Loyalists committed

No we do not.

juan.kerr

policarp wrote: »

Indeed is right, but I would have thought that the crown forces should have been more disciplined than an illegal organisation. . .

Not sure the point you are making.

The IRA would presumably claim that they were disciplined and that their members actions were approved and controlled by the IRA 'army council'.

Or are we saying that the IRA had no control over their 'active duty' members so can't be held responsible for their actions?

juan.kerr

gurramok wrote: »

Well, most people believe what they read in the media, I trust the Gardai down here would be in the know on whats correct on this topic rather than a Sindo journo.



It took 40 years to acknowledge those murders. A few hundred more including the ones involving collusion have not been acknowledged at all, those who died were unarmed civilians by the way.

That you need the British government to 'acknowledge' an incident like this says it all.

gurramok

juan.kerr wrote: »

That you need the British government to 'acknowledge' an incident like this says it all.

It was not acknowledged properly, the victims were branded as gunmen. Many reading this thread would not have heard about Liam Holden nor the recent news in the media on the Ballymurphy massacre http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-18520216.

Thats how much of a publicity gap there is, State forces have always been put in a good light on atrocities while irregulars have been put in a bad light and rightly for atrocities. Education of what happened and acknowledgement of the bad things done is the key to lasting peace.

Jester252

So he didn't die

Phill Ewinn

Horrible story bro

policarp

juan.kerr wrote: »

Not sure the point you are making.

The IRA would presumably claim that they were disciplined and that their members actions were approved and controlled by the IRA 'army council'.

Or are we saying that the IRA had no control over their 'active duty' members so can't be held responsible for their actions?

What I was trying to say was that the british army are supposed to be a legitimate organisation. . .

forfuxsake

juan.kerr wrote: »

Indeed, can I assume that we agree both sides committed horrors that haven't been made public? How many other Jean McConvilles are we not aware of?

Yeah but when it comes to innocent Irishmen or murderous Brits whose side are ye on? ye of apt username.

Spread

juan.kerr wrote: »

Indeed, can I assume that we agree both sides committed horrors that haven't been made public? How many other Jean McConvilles are we not aware of?

gurramok wrote: »

Yes both side, we know well what horrors the IRA\Loyalists committed. Whats not public is what the British Army did, cover ups for 40yrs+ on atrocities. We can't damage their squeaky clean brand.:(

Why go off topic? Can you not discuss the OP's thread without doing the mea culpa bit. Remember, if you want a rational discussion then you've got to be even handed ....... not arse licking the army of occupation.

Seanchai

Ian Cobain's article in The Guardian newspaper yesterday on Liam Holden's case makes for spine-chilling reading.

It's well worth reading in full: Army 'waterboarding victim' who spent 17 years in jail is cleared of murder

A couple of questions recurred to me during it:

1. The "medical personnel" who came in and "examined" Liam Holden (and numerous others) after he was tortured and who then signed a form saying he was in perfect health - has any investigation been made of such people? Don't medical people have to take a Hippocratic Oath to practice medicine honestly and ethically? Given that hundreds of innocent people were tortured and dehumanised in state custody, and that the majority of incidents would have been covered up by some "medical professional", has any investigation been made of members of the medical profession who unethically and deceitfully signed these forms absolving criminals/torturers of their crimes?

2. According to The Guardian article, the British Army unit in question chose a school in the Black Mountain because it was unlikely that the IRA would target them if they were surrounded by school children during the day. What? These supposedly brave soldiers intentionally located themselves in a school, and thus put children in danger, in order to protect themselves? And some people say that they were the "good" guys.

If this case is an indicator of things, an impartial and comprehensive history of the conflict hasn't even been half-written.

kincsem

Red Hand wrote: »

Ye're out in numbers tonight.:D

Longest night of the year, don't ya know?
Any more of these threads and it will certainly feel like the longest night. :rolleyes:

juan.kerr

Spread wrote: »

Why go off topic? Can you not discuss the OP's thread without doing the mea culpa bit.

That's a fair point. Perhaps if the OP had left out the line below then the thread may have developed differently:

How many more such horror cases have still to be made public?

As for:

Spread wrote: »

Remember, if you want a rational discussion then you've got to be even handed ....... not arse licking the army of occupation

Whose arse licking? Better that we stick a bunch of murdering thugs up on a pedestal?

juan.kerr

forfuxsake wrote: »

Yeah but when it comes to innocent Irishmen or murderous Brits whose side are ye on? ye of apt username.

Are you a child? Difficult to believe otherwise when you ask 'whose side are you on'. Cowboys or Indians is it?

Grow up a bit first before responding to this please.

Madam_X

Is discussing this case putting murderous organisations on a pedestal?

juan.kerr wrote: »

Indeed, can I assume that we agree both sides committed horrors that haven't been made public? How many other Jean McConvilles are we not aware of?

This is about members of the British army - how is it even relevant to post the above?
Condemnation of this case isn't automatically celebrating the IRA.

arybvtcw0eolkf

All sides in the conflict have acknowledged their part in wrong doings, and this case only hardens my resolve that we should take a long hard look at a Truth and Reconciliation Commission.

After the British queen's historic visit last year and her forthcoming meeting with MMG I think the time is not too far off when we'll all look back (those of us old enough to remember the conflict in all its horror) and say 'its about bloody time'.

juan.kerr

Onixx wrote: »

Is discussing this case putting murderous organisations on a pedestal?

This is about members of the British army - how is it even relevant to post the above?
Condemnation of this case isn't automatically celebrating the IRA.

Not sure where you think you are, but you aren't on the Sinn Fein IRA forum.

Nodin

juan.kerr wrote: »

.......


Whose arse licking? Better that we stick a bunch of murdering thugs up on a pedestal?

Hopefully you'll be saying the same come the yearly 'poppy' thread.

arybvtcw0eolkf

juan.kerr wrote: »

Not sure where you think you are, but you aren't on the Sinn Fein IRA forum.

Where is that forum?.

Madam_X

O... k... Not sure how you deduced that I thought I was.

I mean, you're the one who first brought up paramilitaries.

juan.kerr

Onixx wrote: »

O... k... Not sure how you deduced that I thought I was.

I mean, you're the one who first brought up paramilitaries.

I've quite clearly answered that in an earlier post.

juan.kerr

Alana Narrow Dolt wrote: »

Where is that forum?.

No idea, I have no interest in it so haven't gone looking but I'm sure it's out there, somewhere. Maybe not on this site...

Madam_X

Ah I get you now - people who condemn torture by British soldiers to get a confession are ra-heads. In Eoghan Harris wack-job land.

juan.kerr

Onixx wrote: »

Ah I get you now - people who condemn torture by British soldiers to get a confession are ra-heads. In Eoghan Harris wack-job land.

And people who think the IRA are 'innocent irishmen' are deluded.

R P McMurphy

Nodin

juan.kerr wrote: »

And people who think the IRA are 'innocent irishmen' are deluded.

You do know that this thread is about a man who was tortured into a confession?

Madam_X

juan.kerr wrote: »

And people who think the IRA are 'innocent irishmen' are deluded.

Yes they sure are deluded but this man was found innocent and yet you brought up whataboutery immediately. Plus I said nothing of the sort yet you suggested I'd be at home on a provo forum?

R P McMurphy

juan.kerr, if you want to derail a thread you should really do it in a less obvious manner

juan.kerr

Nodin wrote: »

You do know that this thread is about a man who was tortured into a confession?

I do, but the original poster hijacked / derailed the thread himself by including this little gem:

How many more such horror cases have still to be made public?

If he wanted to focus on the single case he would have left out that incendiary comment.

Since he chose to include it he clearly didn't want to focus on that single case so left it open to discuss atrocities committed by all parties.

R P McMurphy

juan.kerr wrote: »

I do, but the original poster hijacked / derailed the thread himself by including this little gem:



If he wanted to focus on the single case he would have left out that incendiary comment.

Since he chose to include it he clearly didn't want to focus on that single case so left it open to discuss atrocities committed by all parties.

It is well known what went on during this period and indeed that such practices facilitated recruitment into the IRA. It is not an incendiary comment at all in that light. There are hundreds if not thousands of similar cases

arybvtcw0eolkf

juan.kerr wrote: »

No idea, I have no interest in it so haven't gone looking but I'm sure it's out there, somewhere. Maybe not on this site...

Well then why not feck off and act the sack elsewhere?.

You're purposely derailing a perfectly good thread.

juan.kerr

Alana Narrow Dolt wrote: »

Well then why not feck off and act the sack elsewhere?.

You're purposely derailing a perfectly good thread.

So you don't think the case of Jean McConville is in any way similar? Torture and murder don't compare to torture and imprisonment?

Take those blinkers off.

Nodin

juan.kerr wrote: »

I do, but the original poster hijacked / derailed the thread himself by including this little gem:

If he wanted to focus on the single case he would have left out that incendiary comment.

Since he chose to include it he clearly didn't want to focus on that single case so left it open to discuss atrocities committed by all parties.

Really?

What was behind this then?

And people who think the IRA are 'innocent irishmen' are deluded.

arybvtcw0eolkf

juan.kerr wrote: »

So you don't think the case of Jean McConville is in any way similar? Torture and murder don't compare to torture and imprisonment?

Take those blinkers off.

In your hast you missed this from my earlier post in this thread;

All sides in the conflict have acknowledged their part in wrong doings, and this case only hardens my resolve that we should take a long hard look at a Truth and Reconciliation Commission.

juan.kerr

Nodin wrote: »

Really?

What was behind this then?

Check what it was in response to - thaty might give you as clue.

juan.kerr

Alana Narrow Dolt wrote: »

In your hast you missed this from my earlier post in this thread;

I didn't.

arybvtcw0eolkf

juan.kerr wrote: »

I didn't.

Then I won't waste my time with you any further and report you for what you are and hope other's do the same.

Nodin

juan.kerr wrote: »

Check what it was in response to - thaty might give you as clue.

It doesn't. Is there a problem explaining it or the reasoning behind it?

stovelid

R P McMurphy wrote: »

Is that the Dublin to Belfast line.

Madam_X

juan.kerr wrote: »

So you don't think the case of Jean McConville is in any way similar? Torture and murder don't compare to torture and imprisonment?

Take those blinkers off.

Nobody said anything about the Jean McC atrocity not being as bad! Discussing this particular case isn't a non acknowledgment of other appalling stuff that went on...

What you're doing is akin to marching into a thread about Jean McConville and saying "What about what loyalists did?"

juan.kerr

So how is bringing that case up going off topic?

R P McMurphy

stovelid wrote: »

Is that the Dublin to Belfast line.

No cavan-leitrim, and was one of the better trains

juan.kerr

Nodin wrote: »

It doesn't. Is there a problem explaining it or the reasoning behind it?

I refer you to the following quote:

Ah I get you now - people who condemn torture by British soldiers to get a confession are ra-heads. In Eoghan Harris wack-job land.

Hardly constructive.