Teaching of Irish at Primary level

Feathers

(Not sure if this is the right forum as it's more of a hypothetical question on the structure than anything — feel free to move/delete if not.)

Have been trying to improve my Irish recently & got thinking about how it's taught to us in schools, esp primary. — we must have one of the few set-ups in the world where we have people who aren't fluent teaching a language to young kids.

I think it's unrealistic to expect all of our teachers to have a brilliant level of Irish, and that even if we did, we'd possibly be losing some great primary teachers by enforcing this.

But potentially, we could have dedicated Irish teachers in schools that would teach across multiple classes. This was the kids learn from a native/fluent speaker, and classroom teachers don't have to teach a subject that they don't like/aren't able for.

I know people like the idea of kids having one teacher per year in primary, but kids are already mixing for maths/English in some schools & the benefit of being taught by a Gaeilgóir would be huge.

What do people think? Any downsides to this approach?

E.T.

I've seen this idea mentioned before and there are definitely some good points to it.

It wouldn't mean that other teachers wouldn't be teaching Irish though, the best way to teach it as a living language, is to use it throughout the day as part of conversation and instruction. This really has to happen to show children that it's our language, and has a meaning and context. I think it would be a sad day when it's not used in this way.

Mr.Wemmick

I also see sound reasons for both ways. I think as a separate subject, Irish would have more weight/intensity to it, to a certain extent.. but then for younger children, they absorb a language better if it is apart of the whole day and not separated out as a single subject. Switching between english and irish too can make a child more relaxed so phrases and vocab' becomes familiar, easier to remember and say.

echo beach

Feathers wrote: »

I think it's unrealistic to expect all of our teachers to have a brilliant level of Irish,

I don't think it is realistic to expect them all to be brillant but it is reasonable to expect them all to be fluent enough to speak naturally to small children. It doesn't take a huge vocabulary, you're not holding complex theoretical discussions.

The problem isn't ability, it is attitude and confidence and there is only so much teachers can do. Many of them are frustrated that parents undermine their efforts ('there's no point in learning Irish') and make no effort to use even the most basic words and phases at home. Children take their attitudes from their parents and soon lose interest if they see Irish as a school subject rather than a living language. Then the teachers have a uphill task and have no incentive to improve their own Irish so there is a downward spiral.

silverharp

echo beach wrote: »

I don't think it is realistic to expect them all to be brillant but it is reasonable to expect them all to be fluent enough to speak naturally to small children. It doesn't take a huge vocabulary, you're not holding complex theoretical discussions.

The problem isn't ability, it is attitude and confidence and there is only so much teachers can do. Many of them are frustrated that parents undermine their efforts ('there's no point in learning Irish') and make no effort to use even the most basic words and phases at home. Children take their attitudes from their parents and soon lose interest if they see Irish as a school subject rather than a living language. Then the teachers have a uphill task and have no incentive to improve their own Irish so there is a downward spiral.

indeed but that is the reality. My kids are bilingual and it takes effort, including where we plan our holidays , buying kids programmes, books etc in the other language. When they come to learn Irish, "theyll be on their own" so while I dont want them to fail it, I've no particular interest that they put anymore time into it , unless they somehow develop a personal interest in it.
they really need to make it optional and focus on gael schools or some hybrid model where its really pushed in some schools from an early age.

Feathers

echo beach wrote: »

The problem isn't ability, it is attitude and confidence and there is only so much teachers can do. Many of them are frustrated that parents undermine their efforts ('there's no point in learning Irish') and make no effort to use even the most basic words and phases at home. Children take their attitudes from their parents and soon lose interest if they see Irish as a school subject rather than a living language. Then the teachers have a uphill task and have no incentive to improve their own Irish so there is a downward spiral.

I think that can happen the other way too though — teachers don't have enough ability with the language to go 'off script' in a lesson, which means that if a child is interested and asking questions that don't directly relate to the lesson, the teacher is going out of their comfort zone and quickly steers things back. I had this with non-language subjects myself in school (teachers without comfort in the subject), where it's not as big a deal, but you can see people lose interest.

echo beach wrote: »

I don't think it is realistic to expect them all to be brillant but it is reasonable to expect them all to be fluent enough to speak naturally to small children. It doesn't take a huge vocabulary, you're not holding complex theoretical discussions.

Meant fluency alright rather than brilliance As in, imagine if a talkative ten year old was moved from the Gaeltacht to another part of the country & placed in a regular classroom. I couldn't imagine most teachers would be able to speak comfortably to them in Irish. Not down to vocabulary, but fluency — their comfort in the language, how quickly they can recall what words they need in the language, etc.

byhookorbycrook

Don't agree at all. Every teacher should have a decent standard of Irish. As to kids from the Gaeltacht, yes, teachers should be able to talk with them too.

echo beach

silverharp wrote: »

indeed but that is the reality. My kids are bilingual and it takes effort, including where we plan our holidays , buying kids programmes, books etc in the other language. When they come to learn Irish, "theyll be on their own" so while I dont want them to fail it, I've no particular interest that they put anymore time into it , unless they somehow develop a personal interest in it

Congratulations on putting in the effort to have your children bilingual and I'm sure it will be worth it for them. Usually children with two languages find it easier to learn a third so they should have little difficulty with Irish but it will be easier for them if you show a little interest. You don't have to start learning yourself, although many parents do, just ask them what words mean or listen to their spellings even if you don't know what the words are.

they really need to make it optional and focus on gael schools or some hybrid model where its really pushed in some schools from an early age

I'm afraid we already have this 'two-teir' approach developing. An unfortunate side-effect of the growth of the gael scoil is that there are less parents and teachers in other schools with a real enthusiasm for the language to drive it forward and keep it as a top teaching priority.

an langer

Retrain teachers to teach Irish using TEFL methods, proven to work across Europe. Children will have no problem picking up Irish that way. The old fashioned translation method is only used in UK Ireland USA etc... i.e. countries where everyone is crap at speaking other languages. TEFL methods work, that's why so many people can speak English to you in Denmark, Sweden etc..

Feathers

an langer wrote: »

Retrain teachers to teach Irish using TEFL methods, proven to work across Europe. Children will have no problem picking up Irish that way. The old fashioned translation method is only used in UK Ireland USA etc... i.e. countries where everyone is crap at speaking other languages. TEFL methods work, that's why so many people can speak English to you in Denmark, Sweden etc..

But surely one of the biggest factor in how effective any method is is how good the teachers are. I would say we're also the only country in the world that let's non-fluent speakers be the primary teacher of a language to young children.

Imagine if you went to take a night class in 'French for beginners' and you were told the instructor had a HC3 in Leaving Cert French & spent a few weeks in Nice...!

I agree that the ideal would be to have every teacher fluent, though I don't see that becoming a reality anytime soon. Imagine the fuss the INTO would kick up.

As a priority though, I think we really need to have fluent speakers teaching kids, which is why I'd suggest 'spacing out' fluent teachers across multiple classes. It could be an interim solution before upping quality across the board, but that takes a huge amount of time.

byhookorbycrook

I don't see why the INTO would "kick" up about a basic requirement to do the job.

echo beach

an langer wrote: »

TEFL methods work, that's why so many people can speak English to you in Denmark, Sweden etc..

One reason so many people across Europe can speak English to a reasonable level is that they have subtitled American films and TV shows. If you ask them many older people (i.e over 30), especially from Eastern Europe, will tell you they didn't learn their English at school at all but have taught themselves over the years using various methods. Some of them aren't literate in English although they speak it well.

The other reason is that they want to speak English. They see that it gives them social and economic advantages. Many primary school pupils don't want to learn Irish, mainly because of attitudes picked up at home, and then turn it round to they can't learn, because of poor teaching or whatever.

I'm not saying that the standard or method of teaching Irish is ideal, far from it, but until pupils want to learn no changes will make them learn.

byhookorbycrook

The DES tried to oppose total immersion not so long ago.

hungrypig

i wouldn't agree with any form of 'opt out ' for teachers to learn/teach irish. it is absolutely reasonable to expect teachers to be fluent in irish, unfortunately many of them are not.
personally i think partial immersion would be great half a day, a couple of days a week or a few subjects to be done only through the medium of irish. the children would become fluent very quickly and have all the benefits of learning bilingually

Feathers

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

I don't see why the INTO would "kick" up about a basic requirement to do the job.

They wanted a raise when the curriculum was updated; comparatively this would be a much bigger change in the status quo.

Anyway, I didn't want to turn it into any union/public sector bashing thread, just making the point that saying 'they should all be better' is very much a long term goal. If you dismissed every teacher on the payroll who isn't fluent in Irish you'd have a lot of vacancies! & those teachers getting up to a suitable level still takes a good amount of time.

an langer

Obviously you have big motivation to learn English on mainland European countries, even when you consider that there are more native German speakers than native English speakers in the EU (English only remains global cause of US). But that doesn't take away from the fact that TEFL works, teaching Irish by translating words to English does not. Also, the level of Irish taught at primary school does not need fluent speakers. At secondary yes, at primary the level that needs to be taught would only require a good standard level of Irish which all primary school teachers have. By implementing TEFL methods, kids will pick up Irish no problem and it's much more fun to teach as well.
But why stop there?? TEFL can be used to teach our kids German, French, Chinese... you name it. It's one way of turning the tide and putting an end to horrendeous and ineffective, time wasting methods.

Regarding letting primary school teachers work without knowing Irish, I don't see why we should. In the current climate, there is an excess of teachers looking for jobs. It's easy to hire those teachers with good Irish. If I were a principle, I would want to get my money's worth and hire the teacher that has good Irish a long with the other qualifications. If a teacher doesn't want to learn Irish, I would really wonder what the real reasons are, lack of motivation, not willing to make the effort??