Nigel Farage MEP

oscarBravo

SeanW wrote: »

The "Celtic Tiger" started in the 1990s and was - at that time - built on solid fundamentals.

Ironically, those "solid fundamentals" were the Maastricht convergence criteria, which you're simultaneously blaming as the cause of Ireland's economic woes.

dlouth15

oscarBravo wrote: »

Ironically, those "solid fundamentals" were the Maastricht convergence criteria, which you're simultaneously blaming as the cause of Ireland's economic woes.

May have been a contributing factor but possibly not the overriding one. A combination of low corporation tax and membership of a large free trade area would be more important. A revaluation of the punt within the ERM in the early nineties may also have helped.

View

dlouth15 wrote: »

May have been a contributing factor but possibly not the overriding one. A combination of low corporation tax and membership of a large free trade area would be more important.

We had both those in the 70s and 80s and not only did they not help, we had a recession that was probably worse than our current one.

We also had our Central Bank interest rates at levels most people today could barely imagine (10-15% if I recall). So much for the fallacy of reducing all economic activity to the setting of the interest rate.

Such rates would help our economic recovery a lot, were we to have them today, wouldn't it?

dlouth15 wrote: »

A revaluation of the punt within the ERM in the early nineties may also have helped.

That isn't what the data shows - it had marginal effect on our exports. Indeed the primary reason we had one was "the markets" decided this for us and it was largely a case that as the UK needed one, we had to follow suit - which is about as much "independence" we had in economic terms in reality as opposed to those nice books on theory which start with "Assume your economy is the US economy and not a small economy which no one is forced to trade with if they they so choose".

SeanW

View wrote: »

Such rates would help our economic recovery a lot, were we to have them today, wouldn't it?

No, but under Keynesian economics, rates approaching those figures would have helped cool down our overheating economy in the early-mid 2000s and prevented the housing bubble. Thus, had Keynesian economics been implemented properly, (if there is such a thing) there would have been no housing bubble, because the Central Bank would have recognised the overheating and used its monetary levers to basically hit the brakes.

Austrian economics also has a dim view of too-low interest rates, but takes a more radical view - that interest rates should be dictated by the market without the assistance of a Central Bank. This would prevent most bubbles or limit their expansion, because the consumption of capital and loans for bubble-related activities would drive up interest rates as the supply of loanable funds dwindled.

I will concede that the monetary aspect is just one - Keynesian economics also considers the fiscal side to be important, and its a matter of absolute historical record that the counter-cyclical policies we needed did not come from our national government either.

dlouth15

View wrote: »

So much for the fallacy of reducing all economic activity to the setting of the interest rate.

I think what you need to do is ask yourself why you need to misrepresent the positions of others in making your argument. Do you not see that it weakens whatever point you might have been trying to make?

shanered

Going to sit down and watch this now!

riffmongous

I see Farange is in the news again over the UKIP having a poster warning about Europeans being after British jobs while he is employing his German wife as his PA. The man is a joke.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2014/0423/610426-farage-job-row/

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-27116110

ewan whose army

riffmongous wrote: »

I see Farange is in the news again over the UKIP having a poster warning about Europeans being after British jobs while he is employing his German wife as his PA. The man is a joke.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2014/0423/610426-farage-job-row/

I can't stand him, he makes me ashamed to be English....

His posters are vile and exist only to stir up the little englanders, plus they are bankrolled by a millionaire, once again a party at the tit of Big Business.

People keep on going on about how "passionate" he is, usually referencing that speech he did to Van Rumpuy "Who are You?"

I watched that show on C4 about him, and I don't get what the fuss about him is, he is just a Thatcherite tory something that myself a young, LGBT leftie Brit can't stand.

The Corinthian

riffmongous wrote: »

I see Farange is in the news again over the UKIP having a poster warning about Europeans being after British jobs while he is employing his German wife as his PA.

Reminds me of Umberto Bossi of the Northern League in Italy; vociferously anti-southerners and married to a Sicilian. You have to wonder about the dynamic is some relationships.

Giving his German wife a job is hilarious my most standards, considering his politics.

The man is a joke.

Who is the greater fool; the fool or the fool who follows him?

jank

What ever your views on him he is shaking up the established parties in the UK. Remains to be seen if he is flavour of the month or if this is a more long term shift.

Nodin

jank wrote: »

What ever your views on him he is shaking up the established parties in the UK. Remains to be seen if he is flavour of the month or if this is a more long term shift.

His effect seems primarily limited to the Tories.

jank

That is a bit of a myth that only the Torries should be worried about what is happening regards UKIP. The media have been trying to paint UKIP in such a manner for years and to be honest plays right into the hands of Farage when he talks about 'the elites'. There is deep dissatisfaction in the UK and around the western world with the established status quo, this is just a culmination of this.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/ukip/10713408/Labour-admits-it-is-concerned-about-Ukip.html

Figures in the party are concerned that Ukip could attract traditional working class Labour voters in the north of England.

Recent studies have suggested that Ukip has more working class support than any of the other three parties.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/467918/Labour-losing-working-class-low-educated-voters-to-Ukip-warns-panel-of-political-gurus

Dr Goodwin, co-author of 'Revolt on the Right: Explaining Support for the Radical Right in Britain' at a Chatham House debate in London this afternoon, said: "Nigel Farage and Ukip are tapping into who you might crudely term the 'left behind'; working class, low-educated, financially struggling; mainly white old men who look out at Britain and look at a country which, to be honest, they neither recognise nor want to be a part of

ewan whose army

The Corinthian wrote: »

Reminds me of Umberto Bossi of the Northern League in Italy; vociferously anti-southerners and married to a Sicilian. You have to wonder about the dynamic is some relationships.

Giving his German wife a job is hilarious my most standards, considering his politics.

Who is the greater fool; the fool or the fool who follows him?

UKIPPERS are among the oldest support base for a UK party, hardly any young people (who are actually very "European" minded, like me. I happy Identify as an EU citizen like a lot of people my age do) . They are stuck in the "Good old days" and don't realise the world has moved on since then.

I am waiting for them to announce and alliance with the like of Paisley up North the UKIP and DUP are like two peas in a pod ideology wise. Both anti-LGBT, pro "Christian values" etc. (Why else did the PM do a speech on how Britain is a "Christian country" to get the CofE and I guess the Catholics to support them over UKIP)


However they do get some support from the poorer working class areas, Labour are seen as abandoning them and somewhat understandably they see these EU migrants getting jobs in their town that they can't get so they become bitter and support UKIP.

Another reason for their support is that they are not Con/Lib/Lab similar to why people in scotland vote for the SNP. They are good at getting noticed, something the Greens and the like don't do (As much as I like the Greens they suck at campaigning, I was in their youth wing briefly, I left when they cuddled up to RESPECT a party that I despise)

Nodin

jank wrote: »

That is a bit of a myth that only the Torries should be worried about what is happening regards UKIP. The media have been trying to paint UKIP in such a manner for years and to be honest plays right into the hands of Farage when he talks about 'the elites'. There is deep dissatisfaction in the UK and around the western world with the established status quo, this is just a culmination of this.

That remains to be seen. Thus far the depiction of them doesn't seem to be far off in many regards.
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/apr/24/ukip-member-broadcast-suspended-racist-tweets

ewan whose army

Nodin wrote: »

That remains to be seen. Thus far the depiction of them doesn't seem to be far off in many regards.
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/apr/24/ukip-member-broadcast-suspended-racist-tweets

Yup those tweets were vial.

However if you read up on it, I wonder if his views are down to being a White Zimbabwean when Mugabe did his "Land Reforms" , I have a friend who suffered a witch hunt just because she was born to British ex-pats in what was Rhodesia. I wonder if that has made him very sceptical of anything that isn't British and in his comfort zone.

I am not excusing him, but I think he may have issues judging by his tweets.

Nodin

ewan whose army wrote: »

Yup those tweets were vial.

However if you read up on it, I wonder if his views are down to being a White Zimbabwean when Mugabe did his "Land Reforms" , I have a friend who suffered a witch hunt just because she was born to British ex-pats in what was Rhodesia. I wonder if that has made him very sceptical of anything that isn't British and in his comfort zone.

I am not excusing him, but I think he may have issues judging by his tweets.

His comfort zone is so small he would be made uncomfortable by it.

"well ed milliband is polish and not british so how'd he know whats good for Britain".
(One can speculate as to whether that's actually do with him being of polish descent, or the fact he's Jewish.)

"Most Nigerians are generally bad people I grew up in Africa and dare anyone to prove me wrong."

“I was born and grew up in Africa. Please leave Africa for the Africans. Let them kill themselves off.”

And the final nail in the coffin........
"Enoch Powell was right!”

Nodin

They truly are the gift that keeps on giving.

"Candidates have taken to social media sites to rail against Islam as "organised crime under religious camouflage" while likening the religion to Nazism, and suggesting that the murder of the black teenager Stephen Lawrence has received a disproportionate level of attention.
One candidate for election in Enfield, William Henwood, responded to a recent speech by Henry, in which he suggested there was a poor representation of black and ethnic minorities on British television, by tweeting: "He should emigrate to a black country. He does not have to live with whites."
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/apr/27/ukip-farage-racism-lenny-henry-politics-europe

ewan whose army

Nodin wrote: »

His comfort zone is so small he would be made uncomfortable by it.

"well ed milliband is polish and not british so how'd he know whats good for Britain".
(One can speculate as to whether that's actually do with him being of polish descent, or the fact he's Jewish.)

"Most Nigerians are generally bad people I grew up in Africa and dare anyone to prove me wrong."

“I was born and grew up in Africa. Please leave Africa for the Africans. Let them kill themselves off.”

And the final nail in the coffin........
"Enoch Powell was right!”

Exactly, I mean he has issues that he may need help for.

sin_city

I guess most people here are pro Europe and so anti Farage...is that a fair statement?



I like him to be honest. He is a very straight talker and is very clear about what he stands for.

All the other parties are typical politicians to me. He stuck his neck out on Syria and gave his opinion while Cameron tried to push the UK into bombing.

If you don't like Nigel Farage, then you probably never will...as for other politicians...they will change their views to suit whatever it is that gets them elected. Some people like that, others don't

The Corinthian

sin_city wrote: »

I like him to be honest. He is a very straight talker and is very clear about what he stands for.

Problem I find with straight talkers is that more often than not, they're like that not because they're direct, intelligent and they've thought through what they stand for, but because they're bullshìtters.

Why they're so popular is that they will make simple, often sweeping, statements that are easy to understand or identify with, and when people do, they tend not to question them - that's when things start going a bit pear shaped. Personally, when I hear 'straight talking' I get suspicious, because life is rarely so simple that you can generalize about it with such an approach.

Silvio Berlusconi prides himself on being a straight talker too, btw.

tomdempsey200

The Corinthian wrote: »

Problem I find with straight talkers is that more often than not, they're like that not because they're direct, intelligent and they've thought through what they stand for, but because they're bullshìtters.

Why they're so popular is that they will make simple, often sweeping, statements that are easy to understand or identify with, and when people do, they tend not to question them - that's when things start going a bit pear shaped. Personally, when I hear 'straight talking' I get suspicious, because life is rarely so simple that you can generalize about it with such an approach.

Silvio Berlusconi prides himself on being a straight talker too, btw.

bertie...

sin_city

The Corinthian wrote: »

Problem I find with straight talkers is that more often than not, they're like that not because they're direct, intelligent and they've thought through what they stand for, but because they're bullshìtters.

Why they're so popular is that they will make simple, often sweeping, statements that are easy to understand or identify with, and when people do, they tend not to question them - that's when things start going a bit pear shaped. Personally, when I hear 'straight talking' I get suspicious, because life is rarely so simple that you can generalize about it with such an approach.

Silvio Berlusconi prides himself on being a straight talker too, btw.

I'm a libertarian and Farage comes across as one also.

Most Libertarians speak their mind and it upsets some people in this PC world we live in.

Silvio Berlusconi was not a libertarian btw ...regardless of what HE prided himself on..

SeanW

Nodin wrote: »

That remains to be seen. Thus far the depiction of them doesn't seem to be far off in many regards.
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/apr/24/ukip-member-broadcast-suspended-racist-tweets

Nodin wrote: »

They truly are the gift that keeps on giving.

"Candidates have taken to social media sites to rail against Islam as "organised crime under religious camouflage" while likening the religion to Nazism, and suggesting that the murder of the black teenager Stephen Lawrence has received a disproportionate level of attention.
One candidate for election in Enfield, William Henwood, responded to a recent speech by Henry, in which he suggested there was a poor representation of black and ethnic minorities on British television, by tweeting: "He should emigrate to a black country. He does not have to live with whites."
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/apr/27/ukip-farage-racism-lenny-henry-politics-europe

Wow, the Guardian ... that sanctuary of unbiased reporting? It's not like the Guardian isn't the Left's equivalent of Fox News? :pac:

And Islam is so different from Naziism. Could you please explain how Naziism differs from Wahhabism? With particular reference to the stance of both on Jews, homosexuality, polygamy, personal freedom, press freedom etc, an agressive world view?

Nodin

SeanW wrote: »

Wow, the Guardian ... that sanctuary of unbiased reporting? It's not like the Guardian isn't the Left's equivalent of Fox News? :pac:

...........

So you're saying that those tweets didn't happen or don't exist? Please clarify.

SeanW

Nodin wrote: »

So you're saying that those tweets didn't happen or don't exist? Please clarify.

No, I am suggesting that the Guardian is leftist rag, and it most likely took the most extreme statements by one member (since disowned by the party, and proper order too) and is using that to smear all of UKIP. Which is precisely what a biased rag would do.

Jonny7

SeanW wrote: »

and it most likely took the most extreme statements by one member

Did you read the article?

Racist statements by multiple members and candidates - it's all over the UK media

"young Muslim men remind me of young Afrikaners. They are taught at an early age they have the right to abuse".

"Islam is organised crime under religious camouflage."

“I think if black people come to this country and don't like mixing with white people why are they here? If he (Henry) wants a lot of blacks around, go and live in a black country.”

****ing hell

comongethappy

Jonny7 wrote: »

Did you read the article?

Racist statements by multiple members and candidates - it's all over the UK media



****ing hell

They shoot from the hip though.... apparently that is to be admired.

riffmongous

SeanW wrote: »

No, I am suggesting that the Guardian is leftist rag, and it most likely took the most extreme statements by one member (since disowned by the party, and proper order too) and is using that to smear all of UKIP. Which is precisely what a biased rag would do.

You can find it in another biased rag too
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2614283/Ukip-candidate-William-Henwood-tells-Lenny-Henry-emigrate-black-country.html

Nodin

SeanW wrote: »

No, I am suggesting that the Guardian is leftist rag, and it most likely took the most extreme statements by one member (since disowned by the party, and proper order too) and is using that to smear all of UKIP. Which is precisely what a biased rag would do.

.....you do realise that there are numerous remarks by various members over a long period of time at this point, I hope?

SeanW

Nodin wrote: »

.....you do realise that there are numerous remarks by various members over a long period of time at this point, I hope?

So they've had a few bad apples ...

tomdempsey200

farage always seems to have a pint in his hand for some reason

and he's bombastic to an irritating extent

Nodin

SeanW wrote: »

So they've had a few bad apples ...

"a few bad apples" implies the usual miscreant that can be found in any certain number of people - the corrupt, the violent, the stupid. Here we've a consistent train of a very particular kind of "bad apple". Anti-Jewish remarks, racist remarks, homophobic remarks - its a remarkably consistent grouping, it really is.

The Corinthian

sin_city wrote: »

I'm a libertarian and Farage comes across as one also.

You can be a libertarian, or socialist or whatever and still be a bullshìtter, so I don't see what point you're trying to make.

Most Libertarians speak their mind and it upsets some people in this PC world we live in.

When most people speak their mind it upsets someone who is not of their mind, oddly enough. Still don't see your point.

Silvio Berlusconi was not a libertarian btw ...regardless of what HE prided himself on..

I see you don't actually know anything about him or his politics.

SeanW

Nodin wrote: »

"a few bad apples" implies the usual miscreant that can be found in any certain number of people - the corrupt, the violent, the stupid. Here we've a consistent train of a very particular kind of "bad apple". Anti-Jewish remarks, racist remarks, homophobic remarks - its a remarkably consistent grouping, it really is.

Yes, some of the people in UKIP are bad, and revealed to be so.

There are bad people in all walks of life, it would be bizarre to expect UKIP to have never had any. It would also be bizarre to tar all the UKIP people with the same brush, or to assume that they do not have a valid argument.

Generalising that the people in UKIP who have come out with crap like "gay marriage caused the floods" "Bongo bongo land" etc are REPRESENTATIVE of UKIP, or unduly stain the many good people who work for and support them, would be a bit like generalising that all Muslims are wife-beating jihadists, or that all travellers were anti-social thieves. We all know you love those kinds of generalisations :rolleyes:

Nodin

SeanW wrote: »

Yes, some of the people in UKIP are bad, and revealed to be so.

O I think we covered that. The fact that they all seem to be the same kind of bad is the amazing thing. It's so remarkably consistent. Anti-minority, vaguely misogynistic, reactionary..........

Jonny7

They've been called "BNP in blazers" - a habit of repeatedly blaming Europe and foreigners for Britain's problems plus all the recent racism isn't exactly shedding that image

sin_city

Jonny7 wrote: »

They've been called "BNP in blazers" - a habit of repeatedly blaming Europe and foreigners for Britain's problems plus all the recent racism isn't exactly shedding that image

Who calls them that?

Themselves? Or opposition parties that see them as a threat?

If I were from the UK and I voted for Liberals, Labour or Conservative....would I really notice any difference?

Why don't they just give them their vote on the EU and end the talk, that's all the UKIP party is really asking for.

Democracy seems to be convienient for some people here.....but only when it suits them.

comongethappy

sin_city wrote: »

Democracy seems to be convienient for some people here.....but only when it suits them.

Doubt anyone here is anti-democratic.

The British people have also thus far endorced UKIP with an impressive zero members of parliament.

At some point they have to try to formulate a plan for the general election & really try to do something about all these racists who "slip through the net" (to quote farage).

sin_city

comongethappy wrote: »

Doubt anyone here is anti-democratic.

The British people have also thus far endorced UKIP with an impressive zero members of parliament.

At some point they have to try to formulate a plan for the general election & really try to do something about all these racists who "slip through the net" (to quote farage).

Why hasn't there been an election on EU membership in the UK?

I guess the EU prefers to back coups like in Ukraine to letting the people decide as in Crimea and referendums in Ireland, France and the Netherlands....not too eager to let any member state vote on membership either....I think they know what the result would be.

Are you pro democracy as per above? :pac:

On UKIP - a very influential party for such a small number of seats...wouldn't you agree?

comongethappy

sin_city wrote: »

Why hasn't there been an election on EU membership in the UK?

I guess the EU prefers to back coups like in Ukraine to letting the people decide as in Crimea and referendums in Ireland, France and the Netherlands....not too eager to let any member state vote on membership either....I think they know what the result would be.

Are you pro democracy as per above? :pac:

On UKIP - a very influential party for such a small number of seats...wouldn't you agree?

Easy tiger, I'm not sure how clued in you are from your tea-party bunker in America.
(Is there no forums stateside to pester?)

UK had a referendum to join.
It will have another in 3 years subject to renegotiation.

Any nation can leave should it choose.

Not sure as to the influence of UKIP on Britain.

They have no policy on anything.... Only the EU.... And that "policy" only stretches as far as "kick out the darkies / dey took er jerbs!"

Im doubtful come 2015 they will return a single MP out of the 600+ elected.

View

sin_city wrote: »

Why hasn't there been an election on EU membership in the UK?

The UK has elections every 4-5 years. If the British people won't elect UKIP to (the UK's) Parliament, that is their absolute perogative. There is nothing "un-democratic" about the refusal of the electorate to elect a party to Parliament.

sin_city

comongethappy wrote: »

Any nation can leave should it choose.

Nice words....What nations have had this opportunity?

Anytime we've seen anything that does not fit the EU agenda the public are made to vote again?

Is this incorrect?

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/04/27/ukip-european-elections_n_5221396.html

As long as the other parties all appear the same as each other to the UK voter UKIP will grow. There's little or no difference between all 3 main parties in Britain.

PS, thanks for the tea party dig. I'm quite clued in yes. Nigel Farage was part of a group of libertarian economists and politicians such as Ron Paul, Jim Rogers, Peter Schiff who attended a conference in Chile last year.

These men predicated the financial crash of 2008. Farage is in good company. Maybe you know about this…I don’t know how clued in you are.

alastair

sin_city wrote: »

Nice words....What nations have had this opportunity?

Any EU state has that opportunity at any time. No-one is forced to remain a member.

As to the whole 'bongo bongo land' stuff not being representative of UKIP - well if it's articulated by a representative of UKIP, I'm afraid that's precisely what it is. Godfrey Bloom isn't some aberration within the party base - he's reflective of it.

sin_city

Words and actions are very different in politics...You seem to be falling for believing what they say rather than what they do.

Please tell me...what EU state that rejected a treaty has had this rejection accepted by the EU?

jank

alastair wrote: »

Any EU state has that opportunity at any time. No-one is forced to remain a member.

Yet, the UKIP are asking for that opportunity through democratic means and are bing hounded by the establishment for it. Having your cake and eating it?

Nodin

jank wrote: »

Yet, the UKIP are asking for that opportunity through democratic means and are bing hounded by the establishment for it. Having your cake and eating it?

Currently they seem to be hounded by their own utterances.

alastair

sin_city wrote: »

Words and actions are very different in politics...You seem to be falling for believing what they say rather than what they do.

They don't actually do anything though - given that they have precious little power. So judging them on their words is the only game in town.

sin_city wrote: »

Please tell me...what EU state that rejected a treaty has had this rejection accepted by the EU?

What have treaties got to do with EU membership? Various EU states have selective opt-outs from EU treaties - ourselves included.

Jonny7

sin_city wrote: »

I guess the EU prefers to back coups like in Ukraine

It wasn't a coup, people just got sick of the huge corruption that was threatening to bankrupt the country. It appears they were right too, they've discovered at least 2 billion has been siphoned illegally out of the treasury, and it's thought Yanukovych and those in his party may have stolen 10's of billions, which really puts our own woes with corruption into perspective

to letting the people decide as in Crimea

The recent "referendum" in Crimea was anything but

not too eager to let any member state vote on membership either....I think they know what the result would be.

Withdrawal from the European Union is a right of European Union (EU) member states under Treaty on European Union (Article 50): "Any Member State may decide to withdraw from the Union in accordance with its own constitutional requirements."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Withdrawal_from_the_European_Union

alastair

jank wrote: »

Yet, the UKIP are asking for that opportunity through democratic means and are bing hounded by the establishment for it. Having your cake and eating it?

The 'establishment' eh? And all the other parties are being given a free ride no doubt?

sin_city

Jonny7 wrote: »

It wasn't a coup, people just got sick of the huge corruption that was threatening to bankrupt the country. It appears they were right too, they've discovered at least 2 billion has been siphoned illegally out of the treasury, and it's thought Yanukovych and those in his party may have stolen 10's of billions, which really puts our own woes with corruption into perspective

Yes it was a coup...Like him or not, he was elected...The existing government.....you like that way of doing business? Couldn't they just wait a few months for a new election?

Jonny7 wrote: »

The recent "referendum" in Crimea was anything but

You think the ethnic Russians choose to stay with the Ukranians?

Anyway, that's not my point. The EU say this is wrong and what happened in Kosovo is all good....they are either both ok or both not ok.

Jonny7 wrote: »

Withdrawal from the European Union is a right of European Union (EU) member states under Treaty on European Union (Article 50): "Any Member State may decide to withdraw from the Union in accordance with its own constitutional requirements."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Withdrawal_from_the_European_Union

As I said, words and actions are very different things...why do they keep asking for people to vote again when they don't get the response they like?