England V Italy

Jimmy Iovine

Apparently Pirlo said in an interview with Italian media that he chipped the penalty in order to unsettle the English takers. It certainly worked anyway.

Mr.Crinklewood

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

2/1 with PP for a draw. I cant see neither of these teams going for it if it is level after half time. 0 0 could be a good bet.
5/1 for 0 0.

Well, THANKS!!. Like you could have told us BEFORE the game. FFS....

:-)

Jimmy Iovine

double GG wrote: »

Pirlo completed 114 passes tonight. Over three times more than England's highest Ashley Cole.

Joe Hart also touched the ball 85 times. A record for a keeper in the Euros. More than most of the other English players I'd say.

double GG

Andrea Pirlo attempted 133 passes - 19 more than England's 4 starting midfielders [Gerrard, Parker, Milner & Young] combined (114 attempts).

Pirlo completed the same amount of passes as England's midfield attempted.

Predalien

recylingbin wrote: »

Cole should never have been given the opportunity to take one. He doesn't do scoring - full stop. I don't care if he put his name forward for one, the manager should have said that he'd keep him in reserve for sudden death.

Absolute nonsense, scored the best penalty in the champions league final, scored a penalty in another champion's league final and has scored in a previous shoot-out for England. Was always going to take one.

MisterAnarchy

Ireland had more possession vs Italy than England managed tonight ,40% vs 36%
Ireland also had more corners 5 vs 3 and also limited Italy to less shots .

Sums up that English team .

LuckyLloyd

Hodgsonball fails again in the big show.

I think England are better than how they set out to play.

recylingbin

England should have concentrated less on Frank Lampard's non-goal and more on the players and style of the team that played them off the pitch in SA. They learned nothing and still play the same crap game that has bored even their own die hard fans into submission.
Last time they were enjoyable to watch was around 98/00.
That's a damning indictment of a country which counts itself as having a league that is in the top 3 in the world.

bookie basher

im delighted england are out, they refused to play football, they cant retain possession at all, us & england were by far the worst teams in this tournament at keeping possession of the ball

kryogen

How in the name of Brady was so much time and space allowed to Pirlo, how was he just ignored for the game?

From a tactical point of view that is just suicide.

Biggest mistake for me, second one was not biting the bullet and withdrawing Rooney, it just has not happened for him tonight, he normally needs a few games to get going so it was always going to be a big ask, Welbeck would have been a far better option to chase down Carrolls flicks ons.

bookie basher

recylingbin wrote: »

England should have concentrated less on Frank Lampard's non-goal and more on the players and style of the team that played them off the pitch in SA. They learned nothing and still play the same crap game that has bored even their own die hard fans into submission.
Last time they were enjoyable to watch was around 98/00.
That's a damning indictment of a country which counts itself as having a league that is in the top 3 in the world.

the only reason the premier league is one of the best leagues is because of foreigners, they supply nearly all the creative players, take foreigners out of the league and your left with long ball football and no skill

slingerz

England's problem is an innate fear that the don't compare. They are lacking the self confidence in themselves to match up with the cream of the opposition. They may make all the noise in the build up and in the papers but if they really believed it they would have no need to say it aloud.

Looking forward to 2014, England should go there with confidence. Hart is a top quality keeper and in Smalling, Jones, Walker, Richards among others they will have a defensive side to equal any.

A midfield that could include Cleverly, Rodwell, Wilshire, Henderson ( some will scoff but I think he will grow into a defensive midfield role) along with Young, Ox, Walcott, Welbeck, Sturridge, Rooney, Carroll should have an attacking threat to score the goals to win games. Psychologically though they will need to overcome the penalty mental block and hope that Woy has been and gone so that a manager can come on board and allow them to play attacking football. If you lose when you are free flowing and attacking or if you lose when you rigid and defensive what's the difference?

England would have a team full of pace to trouble any defence they would meet

A_Sober_Paddy

bookie basher wrote: »

the only reason the premier league is one of the best leagues is because of foreigners, they supply nearly all the creative players, take foreigners out of the league and your left with long ball football and no skill

Was just making that point to a mate...

The best players in the league are all foreign players, the only players who are the best in their positions are Hart, Cole & Rooney(when his on form)...

JaMarcus Hustle

If at first you don't succeed....

(fast forward to 2:15)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zGyYRhoDAVg

darkman2

This is class

MisterAnarchy

kryogen wrote: »

Biggest mistake for me, second one was not biting the bullet and withdrawing Rooney, it just has not happened for him tonight

It hasnt happened for him in an England jersey is a long long time .

There is always some excuse ,injury,pressure,played out of position,prostitutes etc.
Maybe its about time people realised that he just isnt that good like the rest of the English team.
Most overated player of all time .

darkman2

kryogen

Most overrated player of all time?

Bit of hyperbole eh?

Most English players fail to replicate club form when playing for England. Im sure there are a multitude of reasons for that, I dont really care or want to get in to them or anything

dfx-

kryogen wrote: »

How in the name of Brady was so much time and space allowed to Pirlo, how was he just ignored for the game?

Because perhaps Pirlo was dropping deep. It'd take one of the two banks of four to come out to him and break the rope tieing them altogether. Hodgson would go crazy at that prospect..

On Pirlo's penalty..you can't afford to miss them like that..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iad3gV-9C1U

kryogen

It struck me as mental that Hodgson, so negative in his tactics did not put someone on Pirlo though!

I just couldn't believe it, and no adjustment made to rectify the mistake for 120 minutes! That is unbelievable. If it meant starting with 1 up top being supported from the wings and 3 in midfield with someone to sit on Pirlo then so be it!

I think Rooney getting his ban lessened caused him a problem there cause he didnt have the balls to leave him out. Welbeck up top with Young and Oxo/Walcott on the wings and having Milner Parker and Gerrard in the middle would have made a real difference tonight imo. the time and space Pirlo had was criminal.

As players even on the pitch someone should have taken it upon themselves to do something about it, whether that be Rooney deciding to drop deep and sit on him or what but it is not acceptable to allow a player so much time and space, someone of his quality at that.

He is no longer a young man, and he has been less effective in games before when the opposition get in his face and pressure him, cut off his options more. Not dropping back and allowing Italy to play the ball where they want just defending the box. It was so negative, England are not that bad.

darced

This post has been deleted.

Xavi6

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Hodgsonball fails again in the big show.

I think England are better than how they set out to play.

No they're not. Hodgson did well with a limited group of players.

kryogen

Xavi6 wrote: »

No they're not. Hodgson did well with a limited group of players.

Come on now, England are better then how they looked tonight, Hodgson has done alright to get out of the tournament with a bit of dignity, but tonight was a disgrace from him tactically and imo team selection wise.

England were absolutely brutal tonight apart from maybe a ten minute spell in the first half, they had no ambition in them, they were told that when Italy got the ball to drop back to the edge of their own box nearly! To completely concede midfield and allow Italy to do as they pleased with the ball up to 30 yards from the English goal. Hodgson sent his team out with a mentality that penalties would be a good result.

chillian17

Some good post-match analysis here: http://ballsoutinpublic.wordpress.com/2012/06/24/italy-march-on-while-its-ashes-to-ashes-for-homebound-england/

ambid

slingerz wrote: »

England's problem is an innate fear that the don't compare. They are lacking the self confidence in themselves to match up with the cream of the opposition. They may make all the noise in the build up and in the papers but if they really believed it they would have no need to say it aloud.

Looking forward to 2014, England should go there with confidence. Hart is a top quality keeper and in Smalling, Jones, Walker, Richards among others they will have a defensive side to equal any.

A midfield that could include Cleverly, Rodwell, Wilshire, Henderson ( some will scoff but I think he will grow into a defensive midfield role) along with Young, Ox, Walcott, Welbeck, Sturridge, Rooney, Carroll should have an attacking threat to score the goals to win games. Psychologically though they will need to overcome the penalty mental block and hope that Woy has been and gone so that a manager can come on board and allow them to play attacking football. If you lose when you are free flowing and attacking or if you lose when you rigid and defensive what's the difference?

England would have a team full of pace to trouble any defence they would meet

In terms of talent, this is probably the weakest English squad since Graham Taylor twenty years ago. By the world cup they should have players who can pass the ball (like Wilshere, Ox, and possibly McEachran and Cleverly), but they will still rely on the likes of Milner and Young who were awful. They just don't look international quality.

Hopefully by 2014 they will have a better squad. they have been dreadful in this championship.

MD1990

i think Rooney will decline gradually like he has the last few years
he doesn't take care of himself of the pitch
every summer there is pics of him smoking & drinking

Kerrydude1981

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KN6ClcMn7iI

The English media ran away with the idea that England would win the tournament after they topped the group,Italy should have won that game in normal time,Woys honeymoon period finished tonight

Xavi6

kryogen wrote: »

Come on now, England are better then how they looked tonight, Hodgson has done alright to get out of the tournament with a bit of dignity, but tonight was a disgrace from him tactically and imo team selection wise.

England were absolutely brutal tonight apart from maybe a ten minute spell in the first half, they had no ambition in them, they were told that when Italy got the ball to drop back to the edge of their own box nearly! To completely concede midfield and allow Italy to do as they pleased with the ball up to 30 yards from the English goal. Hodgson sent his team out with a mentality that penalties would be a good result.

What team would you have started then? Walcott for either Milner or Young would be the only logical change after their group qualification, and even then Walcott was shit when he came on.

kryogen

MD1990 wrote: »

i think Rooney will decline gradually like he has the last few years
he doesn't take care of himself of the pitch
every summer there is pics of him smoking & drinking

Declined gradually the last few years?

Em, no, just no.

But you know what, I bet your right, over the next few years I reckon Rooney will decline gradually too. I think Ronaldo will decline gradually over the next few years, I think Xavi will also, Iniesta too. I think they will all definitely gradually decline.

kryogen

Xavi6 wrote: »

What team would you have started then? Walcott for either Milner or Young would be the only logical change after their group qualification, and even then Walcott was shit when he came on.

Id have started like so

---

Hart

---

Glen---Terry---Jolie----Cole

---

Parker

---

---

Milner

---

Gerrard
Walcott

---

Young

---

Welbeck

---

Could do a double pivot of Parker and Milner even leaving Gerrard as the most advanced midfielder getting in around Pirlo.

Jimmy Iovine

MD1990 wrote: »

i think Rooney will decline gradually like he has the last few years
he doesn't take care of himself of the pitch
every summer there is pics of him smoking & drinking

There are also pictures of Ozil smoking. Ashley Cole has been pictured smoking. As far as I know Johann Cruyff used to smoke a lot while he played. Socrates went through two packets a day, apparently, when he played. Heck even Zinedine Zidane was pictured during the '06 World Cup smoking. At the same time he was dragging the whole French team kicking and screaming to the World Cup final.

What a player does during the summer is of no concern to me. They can have their pints and their fags as long as they kick it when they come back in early July. Do you think that Rooney would be allowed to get away with that at United?

Of course he takes care of himself off the pitch. He didn't play well tonight. That's it. It's not because he drank 7 pints and had 10 fags on a night out in Spain three years ago on a summer holiday.

Xavi6

kryogen wrote: »

Id have started like so

---

Hart

---

Glen---Terry---Jolie----Cole

---

Parker

---

---

Milner

---

Gerrard
Walcott

---

Young

---

Welbeck

---

Could do a double pivot of Parker and Milner even leaving Gerrard as the most advanced midfielder getting in around Pirlo.

Walcott offered a few minutes good work against Sweden but was nothing after that, Young had an awful tournament and Milner has been widely criticized for his performances.

What makes you think that line up would work any better given the players are the same bar one, who as it happens is always going to play if available under whoever is in charge and no matter what sort of form he's in?

Roy will get a bit of flak but he only took over England 1 May and in fairness to him he put the pride back in the jersey and had them playing well organised and hard to break down. He needs time in the job in my opinion and in the future he will be able to call upon the likes of Wilshere.

kryogen

Xavi6 wrote: »

Walcott offered a few minutes good work against Sweden but was nothing after that, Young had an awful tournament and Milner has been widely criticized for his performances.

What makes you think that line up would work any better given the players are the same bar one, who as it happens is always going to play if available under whoever is in charge and no matter what sort of form he's in?

The system, quite easily it is a better system for dealing with Italys main threat.

Milner is not a right winger, he has been brutal in this championship, does not mean he would not have done better in the middle, Walcott is not great, but I would have gone with him over Ox for experience, Young has been poor yep but the other option there is to play Welbeck there with Rooney through the middle and I wouldn't want to do that.

That line up and a change of mentality would certainly have made a better game of it. To say that Hodgsons mentality of dropping two banks of 4 30 yards from your own goal and moving nobody to cut of the main playmaker in the opposition team was a good way to set out a team is ludicrous.

You asked me who I would play, it is irrelevant that Rooney gets picked by Hodgson rain hail or shine.

Taking Welbeck off compounded his initial errors.

I am not saying Roy has not done well to get them to the quarters, he has, but he has enjoyed a good deal of luck and had a weak group to do so.

Xavi6

kryogen wrote: »

The system, quite easily it is a better system for dealing with Italys main threat.

Milner is not a right winger, he has been brutal in this championship, does not mean he would not have done better in the middle, Walcott is not great, but I would have gone with him over Ox for experience, Young has been poor yep but the other option there is to play Welbeck there with Rooney through the middle and I wouldn't want to do that.

That line up and a change of mentality would certainly have made a better game of it. To say that Hodgsons mentality of dropping two banks of 4 30 yards from your own goal and moving nobody to cut of the main playmaker in the opposition team was a good way to set out a team is ludicrous.

You asked me who I would play, it is irrelevant that Rooney gets picked by Hodgson rain hail or shine.

Taking Welbeck off compounded his initial errors.

I am not saying Roy has not done well to get them to the quarters, he has, but he has enjoyed a good deal of luck and had a weak group to do so.

Hodgson's system worked best for the players that they have. The real problem with England isn't the manager, it's the lack of creativity.

With two up front they had feck all chances due to the poor supply. With one up front you're giving the defending centre halves an even handier job because, with the five you listed in the midfield, the quality of the final ball is not going to improve.

England topped the group and lost on penalties in the quarter finals, that's the best they could've hoped for with this group of players whether Hodgson or anyone else was in charge.

kryogen

Xavi6 wrote: »

Hodgson's system worked best for the players that they have. The real problem with England isn't the manager, it's the lack of creativity.

With two up front they had feck all chances due to the poor supply. With one up front you're giving the defending centre halves an even handier job because, with the five you listed in the midfield, the quality of the final ball is not going to improve.

England topped the group and lost on penalties in the quarter finals, that's the best they could've hoped for with this group of players whether Hodgson or anyone else was in charge.

I disagree, giving Gerrard a more advanced role makes him more of a threat and his final ball is good. He is also a goal threat himself. What did Italy have to trouble England other then Pirlo? What did they do well in that game that did not involve Pirlo? It is pretty clear that if closer attention even had been applied to him it would have had an impact on the game.

Without him this is not a fantastic Italian team, it is a little bit toothless in attack and doesn't offer much from out wide, Pirlo is involved in eveything they do well, how can you not see that shackling him should have been the teams first priority? They were able to show numerous clips where he picked the ball up and was able to move forward 20-30 yards without an English player getting anywhere near him!

Hodgson says after the match that they have done the country proud, they can go home with the heads held high pretty much sums up his attitude.

Vincent Vega

-Ade- wrote: »

HA!
yes:D
thanks for catching this. I had said to me mate i saw 'Trap' there!

The Pirlo penalty (and performance throughout) was something else.
I think the most ballsy part of it is that both England and Italy had taken 2 penalties at that point, England having scored both and Montolivo having missed Italy's second.
That just makes it all the more unreal of a decision to make.:eek:

kryogen

When it works your a genius when it fails your a pariah

gotta love football!

Paul Tergat

I hate football.

Sick of losing on penalties

kryogen

Paul Tergat wrote: »

I hate football.

Sick of losing on penalties

Try win a game in 120 minutes so

Or even lose one

Paul Tergat

kryogen wrote: »

Try win a game in 120 minutes so

Or even lose one

Was saying to my Italian mates I'd have preferred them to rightly beat us in the 90 or 120 rather than have to lose on penalties again.

**** FOOTBALL

kryogen

Horrible way to go out alright, I can't pretend I am not happy though, not about the result, that didn't matter, just that it went to penalties, it gives my bet of 2 or 3 penalty shoot outs a serious chance.

briany

I agree that penalties is a horrible way to lose but I think the more proactive team won in the end which is good for the neutrals. England really frustrated Italy and I was starting to get the impression that they were wondering what it would take to put the ball in the back of the English net and that, maybe, it was not their day but the penalty hoodoo has struck England once again. It's sad for the team and I hope that Hodgson does not get too much stick because I believe he has, in a very short time, crafted an England team that really played like a team and he should be given at least one full whack at a campaign without being put under the media kosh.

monkey9

I remember in the Champions League final in Istanbul, Pirlo walking up to take a penalty in the shootout. His face was priceless. He looked terrified and defeated all at the same time. He was clearly going to miss.

To go from that to what he did tonight in the shootout is incredible. In terms of those Panenka´penalties, i think that's the greatest i ever seen! Pure class. I just love the way he made a mug out of Hart!

wonderfullife

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Hodgsonball fails again in the big show.

I think England are better than how they set out to play.

They really really aren't. They haven't been able to keep the ball properly for donkeys years under a variety of managers.

Germany dismantled them under Capello in 2010 and they didn't play in this way.

They didn't even qualify in 2008.

2006 World Cup - beat Paraguay, Trinidad & Tobago, Ecuador, draw with Sweden, lose on pennos to Portugal in 1/4s

2004 Euros - Did ok in an ok group (france, croatia, switzerland) out on pennos again in 1/4s.

Genuinely feel you have to go back 10 years for the last half decent England side to the 2002 World Cup:

David Seaman

Danny Mills
Rio Ferdinand
Sol Campbell
Ashley Cole

David Beckham (c)
Owen Hargreaves
Nicky Butt
Paul Scholes

Michael Owen
Emile Heskey

Out of this peak 2002 team im not sure how many peak 2012 players would get in. Rooney for Heskey, Stevie G for Butt, Johnson for Mills, JT for Sol would be debateable (a peak Sol)

Paul Tergat

That team just reminds me Scholes was moved out of CM. Madness

Worked out for United though

wonderfullife

What amazes me is they KNEW before the match the story yet did nothing about it.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/18564364

Headline: "Euro 2012: Steven Gerrard wary of Italy's midfield threat"

The last 10 seconds he says:

"It's important that me and Scott Parker control the midfield area, because as the manager says Italy have got 3 superb players who play in the midfield area and if they get control we are in trouble"

Basic maths here:

Scott Parker + Steven Gerrard = 2
Pirlo + de Rossi + Marchisio = 3

Hodgson knew it yet stuck with 4-4-2 and what do you know they were over-run and outplayed. Poor Stevie G had cramp after 70 mins!! Chasing shadows, they made Italy look like Spain. If/When Germany dismantle Italy it will sink in how poor England were.

kryogen

wonderfullife wrote: »

france, croatia, switzerland) out on pennos again in 1/4s.

Genuinely feel you have to go back 10 years for the last half decent England side to the 2002 World Cup:

David Seaman

Danny Mills
Rio Ferdinand
Sol Campbell
Ashley Cole

David Beckham (c)
Owen Hargreaves
Nicky Butt
Paul Scholes

Michael Owen
Emile Heskey

Out of this peak 2002 team im not sure how many peak 2012 players would get in. Rooney for Heskey, Stevie G for Butt, Johnson for Mills, JT for Sol would be debateable (a peak Sol)

Em, Hargreaves? You have the wrong year buddy.

He played 108 minutes in that world cup

For context Vassell played 99 minutes, Dyer 105 minutes
Sinclair 307 minutes

Oh oh, and this is purely a personal choice, but I have a peak Sol over a peak Terry every day of the week

Paul Tergat

kryogen wrote: »

Em, Hargreaves? You have the wrong year buddy.

He played 108 minutes in that world cup

For context Vassell played 99 minutes, Dyer 105 minutes
Sinclair 307 minutes

Aye good shout that was the WC that Butt and Sinclair were really good for us

kryogen

Paul Tergat wrote: »

That team just reminds me Scholes was moved out of CM. Madness

Worked out for United though

Didn't Scholes play that in the middle most of the time though? with Sinclair on the left?