What is Bertie Aherns legacy?

Foxhound38

I know he isn't exactly the flavour of the week around these parts anymore, but I quite honestly think he gets a worse rap than he deserves. Here was a man who spent his entire life (think he was elected in his early 20's) in public service. He made mistakes economically and we're living through the resultant downturn - nobody is denying that, but I think the celtic tiger wouldn't have happened in the first place without the social partnership model he brokered wih the unions and other society stakeholders being in place.

We had a good reputation abroad when he was in charge, and no other Taoiseach spent so much time with his constituents looking after their needs, which is an essential part of being a TD.

Lets remember too that the downturn happened under Cowan rather than Ahern himself.

I think history will remember him more fondly than the current consensus on him, but what do you think? When his work as Taoiseach is appraised by historians, what do you think his legacy will be?

TheBody

:eek:

Hardonraging

Foxhound38 wrote: »

Lets remember too that the downturn happened under Cowan rather than Ahern himself.

Did you take the wrong pill this morning chief ?

Foxhound38

And no, I'm not excusing the payments issue unearthed in Mahon, but lets remember that Albert Reynolds was also implicated and we don't seem to hold the same ire for him as we do for Bertie...

I honestly do feel somewhat sorry for him - exiled from his party, reputation in tatters. Maybe not as a politician, but as a human being it must be tough...

pebbles21

Still got a hangover from the concert Nicky?

yobr

Hardonraging wrote: »

Did you take the wrong pill this morning chief ?

+1000. Some much wrong with op's statement, it hard to know where to start...and on a Sunday too..

leeroybrown

Foxhound38 wrote: »

Lets remember too that the downturn happened under Cowan rather than Ahern himself.

This is the man who signed Charlie Haughey's cheques, took payments from "Paddy the Plasterer" and most importantly presided over an era where Fianna Fáil wasted the product of this country's great ear of prosperity. That's his legacy!

DrumSteve

Hes a spoofer who got found out.

Ms.M

Economic recklessness. Trying to keep everybody happy and get votes at the expense of economic stability. Ignoring advice. Being corrupt.


Wearing canary yellow trousers.

Immaculate Pasta

He'll go down as this century's Michael Collins. No question about that. :cool:

Kensington

Social partnership was a complete and utter disaster (high inflation, unsustainable social welfare costs, irreversible benchmarking for PS?).

The celtic tiger was built on a makey-uppy bubble.

Elections bought on the back of super-low tax rates but our health, education, road, rail, electricity, broadband and water infrastructure are in complete tatters due to lack of investment and mismanagement.

Bertie Ahern got in, let the good times roll without any regard for the future, lined his pockets and those of his mates and then bailed out when he saw the whole cherade about to topple over in spectacular fashion.

And that is what I hope historians will remember in twenty, thirty, forty years time.

Foxhound38

leeroybrown wrote: »

This is the man who signed Charlie Haughey's cheques, took payments from "Paddy the Plasterer" and most importantly presided over an era where Fianna Fáil wasted the product of this country's great ear of prosperity. That's his legacy!

And yet FF is still the largest party in opposition and making gains in the polls - they must have done something right by at least some people...

ilovesleep

Foxhound38 wrote: »

I know he isn't exactly the flavour of the week around these parts anymore, but I quite honestly think he gets a worse rap than he deserves. Here was a man who spent his entire life (think he was elected in his early 20's) in public service. He made mistakes economically and we're living through the resultant downturn - nobody is denying that, but I think the celtic tiger wouldn't have happened in the first place without the social partnership model he brokered wih the unions and other society stakeholders being in place.

We had a good reputation abroad when he was in charge, and no other Taoiseach spent so much time with his constituents looking after their needs, which is an essential part of being a TD.

Lets remember too that the downturn happened under Cowan rather than Ahern himself.

I think history will remember him more fondly than the current consensus on him, but what do you think? When his work as Taoiseach is appraised by historians, what do you think his legacy will be?

The celtic tiger happened due to the labour and fg government of the 90s devaluing the punt. We then became an attractive country to do business in especially for US multinational companies. We were a cheap, english speaking country on the outskirts of europe. Bertie had nothing to do with the celtic tiger.

He and FF were elected 1997 and built the country encouraging property building, buying and selling.

Patri

Foxhound38 wrote: »

I know he isn't exactly the flavour of the week around these parts anymore, but I quite honestly think he gets a worse rap than he deserves. Here was a man who spent his entire life (think he was elected in his early 20's) in public service. He made mistakes economically and we're living through the resultant downturn - nobody is denying that, but I think the celtic tiger wouldn't have happened in the first place without the social partnership model he brokered wih the unions and other society stakeholders being in place.

We had a good reputation abroad when he was in charge, and no other Taoiseach spent so much time with his constituents looking after their needs, which is an essential part of being a TD.

Lets remember too that the downturn happened under Cowan rather than Ahern himself.

I think history will remember him more fondly than the current consensus on him, but what do you think? When his work as Taoiseach is appraised by historians, what do you think his legacy will be?

Rose tinted glasses op.

Also Bertie left Cowan out to dry. It's not that it happened under Cowan, Bertie (being the little rat he is) got out in time so that he wouldn't have to bite bullet. He's a criminal in a suit.

gerryo777

To be fair to him he was just one of the great 'cute hoors' who slimed his way to be taoiseach, a poor version of haughey if you like.

McCrevey & cowan were the ministers for finance who laid the foundations of this country's ruin.

In saying that, ahern was the 'leader' of the country and as such should have kept his ministers in check.

We will be rewarding him well for his years of 'self' service with a massive pension of €150,000 or thereabouts for the rest of his life.

As he said himself though, his biggest regret was not getting the 'bertie bowl' built and I think that says more about the man and his legacy than anything else.

Profiler

Foxhound38 wrote: »

When his work as Taoiseach is appraised by historians, what do you think his legacy will be?

I hope those historians get to consider a chapter called.

"Bertie: The Final Chapter: The Mountjoy Decades"

There are so many things I would like to say about him, some would be libelous right now but will come to fruition in time (not soon enough) others would get me a life time ban from Boards. So I won't say them.

I just hope the OP is trolling, as it would break my heart to learn that there are still people so naive in Ireland.

History will reflect very poorly on Bertie, of that I'm sure, in time he will become the standard bearer for what went wrong with Ireland and all the worst kind people we've produced.

ilovesleep

Foxhound38 wrote: »

And no, I'm not excusing the payments issue unearthed in Mahon, but lets remember that Albert Reynolds was also implicated and we don't seem to hold the same ire for him as we do for Bertie...

I honestly do feel somewhat sorry for him - exiled from his party, reputation in tatters. Maybe not as a politician, but as a human being it must be tough...

Are you Oggy from politics.ie

TeddyTedson

A party that resulted in the complete destruction of the building. Good while it lasted though I guess.

gerryo777

ilovesleep wrote: »

The celtic tiger happened due to the labour and fg government of the 90s devaluing the punt. We then became an attractive country to do business in especially for US multinational companies. We were a cheap, english speaking country on the outskirts of europe. Bertie had nothing to do with the celtic tiger.

So we can blame the celtic tiger and the resultant property bubble and burst on FG/Lab????:rolleyes:

Ms.M

gerryo777 wrote: »

As he said himself though, his biggest regret was not getting the 'bertie bowl' built and I think that says more about the man and his legacy than anything else.

Jayzus! I remember that interview clip I think.
Did he say that after the bubble burst?

The_Kew_Tour

I suppose you believe he has no bank account either do you OP?

Foxhound38

Profiler wrote: »

I hope those historians get to consider a chapter called.

"Bertie: The Final Chapter: The Mountjoy Decades"

There are so many things I would like to say about him, some would be libelous right now but will come to fruition in time (not soon enough) others would get me a life time ban from Boards. So I won't say them.

I just hope the OP is trolling, as it would break my heart to learn that there are still people so naive in Ireland.

History will reflect very poorly on Bertie, of that I'm sure, in time he will become the standard bearer for what went wrong with Ireland and all the worst kind people we've produced.

I'm really not - I actually feel for him as a human being. For a man like that who has spent his life in politics, to be exiled from his own party, hounded by the media, with a reputation in tatters must be tough for anyone, including Bertie.

He was a very popular politician in his day, and FF are rising in the polls - if what he/they did is irreversable, then why would that be?

Fratton Fred

Bertie's legacy is the fact that the country is in a worse state now than when he was elected and all entirely due to his personal mis management of the economy.

Hardonraging

Actually Bertie and FF's legacy will forever be immortalised by the plethora of small medium and in some cases large housing estates that litter the country side, many of which are empty and half build

gerryo777

Ms.M wrote: »

Jayzus! I remember that interview clip I think.
Did he say that after the bubble burst?

After it had exploded in our faces.

http://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=ahern%20regrets%20not%20building%20the%20bertie%20bowl&source=web&cd=10&sqi=2&ved=0CGEQFjAJ&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.irishexaminer.com%2Fireland%2Fkfeymhojkfmh%2Frss2%2F&ei=TOzmT5WwCY-EhQf0zfjXCQ&usg=AFQjCNFTahhhVluQCvhHMQPnHecN6yC5ew

ilovesleep

gerryo777 wrote: »

So we can blame the celtic tiger and the resultant property bubble and burst on FG/Lab????:rolleyes:

No! Bertie had absolutely nothing to do with the celtic tiger. FF and Bertie took over in 97 and received a healthy economy in which they built a property bubble upon and dragged out the celtic tiger into a property bubble.

The_Kew_Tour

Foxhound38 wrote: »

I'm really not - I actually feel for him as a human being. For a man like that who has spent his life in politics, to be exiled from his own party, hounded by the media, with a reputation in tatters must be tough for anyone, including Bertie.

He was a very popular politician in his day, and FF are rising in the polls - if what he/they did is irreversable, then why would that be?

Wait a second!!

What about people who cant pay mortgages, people who have no jobs, people who's health is in decline, people who have committed suicide because of pressures they could not handle????

Feel sorry for him? Me Bollocks I do.

c_man

He'll get some credit for the North but overall his reputation will be down in the mud.

blingrhino

Bass !

gerryo777

Foxhound38 wrote: »

I'm really not - I actually feel for him as a human being. For a man like that who has spent his life in politics, to be exiled from his own party, hounded by the media, with a reputation in tatters must be tough for anyone, including Bertie.

He was a very popular politician in his day, and FF are rising in the polls - if what he/they did is irreversable, then why would that be?

When is ahern 'hounded' by the media?
He destroyed his own reputation, remember the closet debacle?
I think most people would be happy enough if he just crawled into a hole and died!

gerryo777

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

Wait a second!!

What about people who cant pay mortgages, people who have no jobs, people who's health is in decline, people who have committed suicide because of pressures they could not handle????

Feel sorry for him? Me Bollocks I do.

Sure didn't he wonder once how people who were 'cribbing and moaning' didn't just go and commit suicide and be done with it.
Hope he's happy now.

ilovesleep

Foxhound38 wrote: »

I'm really not - I actually feel for him as a human being. For a man like that who has spent his life in politics, to be exiled from his own party, hounded by the media, with a reputation in tatters must be tough for anyone, including Bertie.

He was a very popular politician in his day, and FF are rising in the polls - if what he/they did is irreversable, then why would that be?

Bertie could be and very like a psychopath. Full of charisma (a front to rein people in). Use people and things for their own gains. Then take absolutely no responsibilty for his part in things and have no empathy for the people left behind struggling to cope with what he created.

Foxhound38

Obviously I feel more sorry for the people in distress - that doesn't mean I can't feel for him on a human level at the same time!

And the closet thing was just a bit of craic - he was a sports writer, all the other writers where positioned in a similar fashion. Never understood why people got their knickers in a twist over that specific incident...

Bruthal

Foxhound38 wrote: »

I honestly do feel somewhat sorry for him - exiled from his party, reputation in tatters. Maybe not as a politician, but as a human being it must be tough...

Well, at least you can take comfort in the knowledge that you are reducing his burden, as seen in gerryo`s post.

gerryo777 wrote: »

We will be rewarding him well for his years of 'self' service with a massive pension of €150,000 or thereabouts for the rest of his life.

Bullseye1

We are currently living it.

The_Kew_Tour

I doubt Bertie cares too much about you OP.

Sunnyisland

Bertie Ahern was our prime minister,holder of the highest office in the land.
That was suppose to mean something, to him to his party and more to us the people,He was the caught out lying through his teeth,he turned with many party colleagues a blind eye to the corruption and fraud that was rife through out the state,and did very well out of it,especially in the construction sector. Yes people should never forget him, there should be a yellow stone statue of him at the end of howth pier where the seagulls can rest there asses.

christmas2012

people like mick wallace the public money thief,thats the legacy hes left behind all this cute hoorism,gombeens and micks they should be chucked out,our problem in ireland is we always ...always vote populist parties or ''independants'' who in reality are business sharks double jobbing..

i hear his daughter wrote some chick trash books ones i wouldnt read not only just on principle,its just once you read one jackie collins book you read them all..

Myrddin

Foxhound38 wrote: »

And yet FF is still the largest party in opposition and making gains in the polls - they must have done something right by at least some people...

No, it's more that most people just lack basic intelligence.

gbee

I've bought my ticket to do a 'Vincent Keaney' on his grave, as he'll most likely outlive me, I've made it transferable to my sons.

nacimroc

c_man wrote: »

He'll get some credit for the North but overall his reputation will be down in the mud.

To be fair Albert reynolds had all the hard work done in the north. He got them to the table, got peace deals etc. I still think Tony Blair had more to do with it than he gets credit for aswell. Of course Bertie jumped in on everyone elses hard work and took all the credit again.

It was Ruiri Quinn who set up this country with the low corporation tax and lower tax rates to stimulate the country. Credit which he should get!

Bullseye1

EnterNow wrote: »

No, it's more that most people just lack basic intelligence.

I don't buy that. Its actually more to do with voting for your local guy because he is the one going to get money spent where you live. Until our national politicians get away from this attitude it will never change. Local councillors should have greater control over local budgets with elections every two years. With the introduction of property taxes we should have greater say on how that money is spent locally.

bee_keeper

Foxhound38 wrote: »

I know he isn't exactly the flavour of the week around these parts anymore, but I quite honestly think he gets a worse rap than he deserves. Here was a man who spent his entire life (think he was elected in his early 20's) in public service. He made mistakes economically and we're living through the resultant downturn - nobody is denying that, but I think the celtic tiger wouldn't have happened in the first place without the social partnership model he brokered wih the unions and other society stakeholders being in place.

We had a good reputation abroad when he was in charge, and no other Taoiseach spent so much time with his constituents looking after their needs, which is an essential part of being a TD.

Lets remember too that the downturn happened under Cowan rather than Ahern himself.

I think history will remember him more fondly than the current consensus on him, but what do you think? When his work as Taoiseach is appraised by historians, what do you think his legacy will be?

worst leader the country ever had

his one and only priority was re-election and he was prepared to mortgage the future to do it

as for his deal with the unions , its one of the reasons we are where we are and why all partys fear them so much

gerryo777

Foxhound38 wrote: »

And the closet thing was just a bit of craic - he was a sports writer, all the other writers where positioned in a similar fashion. Never understood why people got their knickers in a twist over that specific incident...

If you don't understand why that upset people so much about that then I would have to question your own views and values.

bee_keeper

Foxhound38 wrote: »

And yet FF is still the largest party in opposition and making gains in the polls - they must have done something right by at least some people...

a high percentage of irish people vote along family lines , especially in rural ireland where the only alternative is FG anyhow

Yamanoto

Foxhound38 wrote: »

Lets remember too that the downturn happened under Cowan rather than Ahern himself.

The downturn hinged on factors largely beyond the control of the Government.

However, our own spectacular meltdown as a result of it was as a consequence of years of execrably shoddy oversight by Ahern himself at the Dept. of An Taoiseach.

As for the man himself, he always struck me as an utter creep.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfjGSfuSQpA

christmas2012

''And yet FF is still the largest party in opposition and making gains in the polls - they must have done something right by at least some people...''


It proves irish voters to be stupid voting back in the party that let us into financial ruin via the builders and bankers..

Does anybody vote for anybody other than FF,or FG or Labour and god knows they have had their frauds in those parties..

Any independants we vote in are theifs like mick wallace who even hired a hitman after some guy to get money back as he was loan sharking..

Bruthal

EnterNow wrote: »

No, it's more that most people just lack basic intelligence.

I was just about to post similar. Common sense is in reality uncommon sense.

gerryo777

I remember watching Reeling in the years about the year the National Lottery was introduced and he was asked what he'd do if he won money on a scratch ticket.
I buy a country house and a yacht and maybe an island was his response.
His ambition was to be haughey mark 2 even then!!!!

Biggins

leeroybrown wrote: »

This is the man who signed Charlie Haughey's cheques, took payments from "Paddy the Plasterer" and most importantly presided over an era where Fianna Fáil wasted the product of this country's great ear of prosperity. That's his legacy!

DrumSteve wrote: »

Hes a spoofer who got found out.

Ms.M wrote: »

Economic recklessness. Trying to keep everybody happy and get votes at the expense of economic stability. Ignoring advice. Being corrupt.


Wearing canary yellow trousers.

Kensington wrote: »

Social partnership was a complete and utter disaster (high inflation, unsustainable social welfare costs, irreversible benchmarking for PS?).

The celtic tiger was built on a makey-uppy bubble.

Elections bought on the back of super-low tax rates but our health, education, road, rail, electricity, broadband and water infrastructure are in complete tatters due to lack of investment and mismanagement.

Bertie Ahern got in, let the good times roll without any regard for the future, lined his pockets and those of his mates and then bailed out when he saw the whole cherade about to topple over in spectacular fashion.

And that is what I hope historians will remember in twenty, thirty, forty years time.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

All the above and more.
This is a man that also deregulated the banks just so that his "Drumcondra Mafia" (see this link) mates could take advantage of the country so they could rape it and the Irish people further.

The future generations of Ireland should read the above book linked, as part of their future school civics education and thus learn to recognise further future signs of similar things happening.

"Those that refuse to learn from history - are doomed to repeat it."
...Which brings us to the post below...

Foxhound38 wrote: »

And yet FF is still the largest party in opposition and making gains in the polls - they must have done something right by at least some people...

People are human. That means as well as raising to great heights of achievements - they are also stupid and at times willingly forgetful.
Fianna Fail KNOWS that future generations will (in majority) look back at Irish history through summarised details, if they look back at all.
Thus these future people/voters will accept the systemic cronyism and corruptions of the past, hope its gone. They will in hope and seeking alternatives to their present day hatreds they are suffering through as they once again go to ballot boxes, seek once more an alternative way to rid themselves of something in real-time they have to suffer at the hands of.
The Irish game of political musical chairs continues!

Long story short, to answer the above post, I will say this:

"When a thirsty man stands in a desert with no water, he will be desperate enough to alternatively dig into bare and rough sand in hope of an alternative glimmer of help and hope."

Its how the far-right Greek factions are rising now - its how the far-right wing parties of Germany, France and other European countries at times grow even today, its how Hitler and his fascist party rose to power, its how the Taliban were successful in taking a country at one stage, Pol Pot, Idi Amin and many more... its how people when they are near at their lowest - will grasp any alternative that is promising the sun, moon and stars. Promising they have "The way forward" - that is until they actually get into power - then we all suffer more. Do we not now?

...Thus people are forgetful, they do not learn from detailed history and the likes of Fianna Fail sadly rises again once more - for very little has with them indeed changed. There has been only window-dressing and this has been small to say the least.
Only the PR tactics and words from them are ever more, getting more professional.
Sadly some people are stupidly swallowing their crap!

We must more educate our future people then!

gerryo777

christmas2012 wrote: »

Any independants we vote in are theifs like mick wallace who even hired a hitman after some guy to get money back as he was loan sharking..

Careful now!!:D