What is Bertie Aherns legacy?

Myrddin

Bullseye1 wrote: »

I don't buy that. Its actually more to do with voting for your local guy because he is the one going to get money spent where you live. Until our national politicians get away from this attitude it will never change. Local councillors should have greater control over local budgets with elections every two years. With the introduction of property taxes we should have greater say on how that money is spent locally.

It could still be argued that if that's your incentive to elect someone in government, your short sighted & foolish.

It's all talk promise yes promise anything you want promise, until they've voted in. From that moment on, it's all slither ssss & other snakey stuff.

"It doesn't matter who you vote for, the government always gets in", heard that before & how true it is. Bertie Ahern was a very smart, cunning & skilfull 'politician', I'd say he laughs all the way to the bank today. As for what he should be remembered for? I'd say he should be remembered for making our recession far, far worse that it would have been otherwise.

juan.kerr

Foxhound38 wrote: »

Here was a man who spent his entire life (think he was elected in his early 20's) in public service.

No offence OP, but I can't help laughing when this line is trotted out.

Can we take it from this that he didn't get paid handsomely for his years in public service?

How is 'public service' really any different than 'private service' other than the gold plated pensions?

gaffer91

ilovesleep wrote: »

The celtic tiger happened due to the labour and fg government of the 90s devaluing the punt. We then became an attractive country to do business in especially for US multinational companies. We were a cheap, english speaking country on the outskirts of europe. Bertie had nothing to do with the celtic tiger.

I thought it was FF who devalued under Reynolds? Celtic Tiger came about because of succession of reasonably good governments from 1987-1997 and arguably 1997-2001.

Anyway, while Bertie will get credit for what seems to be an enduring peace, he will go down as a man who presided the overheating of the Irish economy, the man who took no action to deflate the property bubble, who unsustainably increased public expenditure but possibly worst of all, the man who had the means to do anything during his tenure but instead did nothing lasting or constructive.

Edit: He also lied to the Tribunal.

gerryo777

juan.kerr wrote: »

How is 'public service' really any different than 'private service' other than the gold plated pensions?

In ahern's case, the free house, the trips to Manchester, the state merc, the 24 hour security we still pay for etc etc etc...........

Just as an aside, is the money ahern earns giving after dinner speeches in Nigeria:eek: on how to run an economy and a banking sector (I kid you not:D:D:D), taxable in Ireland?

CL7

Foxhound38 wrote: »

He was a very popular politician in his day, and FF are rising in the polls - if what he/they did is irreversable, then why would that be?

Because some people when it comes down to it have no integrity. Others are either stupid or ignorant.

Foxhound38

CL7 wrote: »

Because some people when it comes down to it have no integrity. Others are either stupid or ignorant.

But that's somewhat dismissive of the large numbers who intend voting that way. Localism is still a strong force in Irish politics - the fact that the Healy-Rae's can still be elected shows that!

Profiler

Foxhound38 wrote: »

I'm really not - I actually feel for him as a human being. For a man like that who has spent his life in politics, to be exiled from his own party, hounded by the media, with a reputation in tatters must be tough for anyone, including Bertie.

He was a very popular politician in his day, and FF are rising in the polls - if what he/they did is irreversable, then why would that be?

Ahern's "popularity" was fake. Those who supported him didn't know the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

As for his reputation being in tatters and the person who did that is Ahern himself.

The first step to reversing the attitude towards him is an admission of guilt and for him to tell the truth about what went on.

However Ahern will never tell the truth and will never admit he is wrong.

As for sympathy, I have no sympathy for the liar at all, may he rot in a jail cell for a long time.

Remember when the first of the voices were saying we are on a path to serious problems Bertie told them to shut up or they might talk us into trouble he then went on said

"Sitting on the sidelines, cribbing and moaning is a lost opportunity. I don't know how people who engage in that don't commit suicide..." :mad:

The ordinary men women and children of Ireland who have to deal on a day to day basis with the mess Bertie and his cronies created, they are the people I have sympathy for.

CL7

Foxhound38 wrote: »

But that's somewhat dismissive of the large numbers who intend voting that way. Localism is still a strong force in Irish politics - the fact that the Healy-Rae's can still be elected shows that!

If someone votes for a corrupt politician for short term gain then they have no integrity. If they can't see the corruption then they're either stupid or ignorant. What other options are there? Calling it "localism" doesn't change reality.

Zebra3

Foxhound38 wrote: »

and no other Taoiseach spent so much time with his constituents looking after their needs

When you are Taoiseach you are meant to be running the country. Not getting medical cards for your neighbours. :rolleyes:

No wonder the country is f***ed.

biko

In a sense Bertie was just in a position where he could exploit us all.
Any gombeen politician would have done the same, if they didn't have scruples.

He had a choice and he took the easy route, probably knowing it would ruin us but hoping no-one would find out.

Galwayguy35

Bertie learned from the best, good old Charlie. Between them who knows how much money was squandered.
My old man was die hard FF all his life, from a generation that believed everything a politician said was gospel. I wonder if he was still around what would he think.
Personally I vote SF, I regard the others as all the same.

Zebra3

greenfingers89 wrote: »

if anything i think cowen is getting slightly (ever so slightly) more stick than he deserves. i reckon bertie isnt getting half enough blame even after mahon

What totally destroyed the country was the signing of the bank guarantee.

That happened on Biffo's watch.

Fishooks12

He played a big part in wrecking our country and should probably be in jail

/thread

Pedant

This thread is SOOOO 2008!!

bee_keeper

Zebra3 wrote: »

What totally destroyed the country was the signing of the bank guarantee.

That happened on Biffo's watch.

yes and it was cowen who signed the croke park agreement despite surely knowing that even that kind of sellout would not save FF at the subsequent general election , he had nothing to gain politically yet caved in due to cowardice

HenryAt

Foxhound38 wrote: »

I know he isn't exactly the flavour of the week around these parts anymore, but I quite honestly think he gets a worse rap than he deserves. Here was a man who spent his entire life (think he was elected in his early 20's) in public service. He made mistakes economically and we're living through the resultant downturn - nobody is denying that, but I think the celtic tiger wouldn't have happened in the first place without the social partnership model he brokered wih the unions and other society stakeholders being in place.

We had a good reputation abroad when he was in charge, and no other Taoiseach spent so much time with his constituents looking after their needs, which is an essential part of being a TD.

Lets remember too that the downturn happened under Cowan rather than Ahern himself.

I think history will remember him more fondly than the current consensus on him, but what do you think? When his work as Taoiseach is appraised by historians, what do you think his legacy will be?

There is so much wrong with this statement that I hardly know where to start.
Did you smile when they patted you of the back, as all our wallets were lifted with slide of hand?
The Banking guarantees are the shackles of death for this country and this mess is just unraveling.
It deeply saddens me what’s happening too many friends and family.
Some had little or no borrowings but with no incomes were forced to emigrate or stay and lose their homes.
You’re words hold no water, wake up and smell the coffee!

juan.kerr

greenfingers89 wrote: »

if anything i think cowen is getting slightly (ever so slightly) more stick than he deserves.

I disagree. I don't believe he was ever fit for purpose for the job of Taoiseach, regardless of opinions on Ahern.

Cowan was orchestrated into the job by Ahern / FF and when he got it he had NONE of the qualities needed.

He hid behind Brian Lenihan, showed no leadership qualities, treated the public as an inconvenience, keeping us uninformed / in the dark and only interacting when his handlers made it clear he had no other choice.

The infamous radio interview from the party conference (?) showed he was an embarrassment to the country.

mikemac1

bee_keeper wrote: »

a high percentage of irish people vote along family lines , especially in rural ireland where the only alternative is FG anyhow

The exact same happens in cities and towns, it's not a rural thing

I'm a union man, my granddad was a union man all his life, so was my Dad and now I'm Labour to the core


For every farmer you see loyal to a party you'll find plenty of working men in towns who vote Labour

No suprise most of their TD's come from Dublin!
And the two socialists

yosser hughes

HenryAt wrote: »

There is so much wrong with this statement that I hardly know where to start.
Did you smile when they patted you of the back, as all our wallets were lifted with slide of hand?
The Banking guarantees are the shackles of death for this country and this mess is just unraveling.
It deeply saddens me what’s happening too many friends and family.
Some had little or no borrowings but with no incomes were forced to emigrate or stay and lose their homes.
You’re words hold no water, wake up and smell the coffee!

I agree.What is depressing about the OP is the breathtaking ignorance of it and the failure to realise what happened. Couple with that the consequences of Aherne's actions are only just beginning and it's something that has set this country back for god knows how long.
Sadly the OP is represenative of at least 18% of people in this country,if not more.
People know more about English football and trivia than they do about what is happening in their own country.

Bruthal

Foxhound38 wrote: »

and no other Taoiseach spent so much time with his constituents cronies looking after their needs,

Agreed

paddyandy

Bertie has taught us to value Trust and honest speech and the danger of thinking too highly of anybody ....and to listen to the people lower down on the pecking order .ALL of these he did'nt do . He had warnings on the market heating up but nobody foresaw the collapse of the u.s. sub-prime market .

maddragon

Bertie's legacy IMO is that he may be the most corrupt individual of all time to never see the inside of a jail. That's a fair achievement in itself. He must surely also be the most incoherent and incomprehensible person to become the leader of a country.

maddragon

PS: In a way I don't mind if I go to hell when I die because I'ld knock alot of enjoyment pulling Bertie's fingernails for all eternity.

greenfingers89

Zebra3 wrote: »

What totally destroyed the country was the signing of the bank guarantee.

That happened on Biffo's watch.

surely everything that led us to that position was a bigger co ck up.

im not defending cowen at all, i just think bertie is getting off lighter

anthonyos

he is a toe rag and a liar and if i ever see him i am going to attack him

policarp

Sure didn't Haughey pay him his best compliment
by saying he was the most devious of them all. . .

homerjay2005

Legacy? the c*nt should be in jail...thats his f*cking legacy.

he brainwashed this country for years filling an economically uneducated nation into thinking that we are all worthless without spending money we couldnt afford on houses that were overpriced.

he build an entire economy on the price of houses. for that alone,the lies, the fraud he should never be afforded a nice word in this country.

gerryo777

Pedant wrote: »

This thread is SOOOO 2008!!

Why? He only retired from politics in 2011.

Another snippet from wikipedia...


On 30 December 2010, in a speech to his party cumann in the Dublin Central constituency, he announced that he would not be contesting the 2011 general election.[68] Ahern said he had made it clear as far back as 2002 that it was always his plan to step down as a TD before he was 60.
Asked if he had any regrets,[69] he said:
“If I had seen the banking crisis coming. Nobody advised me, no economist, all those people now writing books saying ‘I told you so’ – none of them.”
On Anglo Irish Bank, he said:
“I can honestly say that not once did anyone or any delegation that came in to see me ever say, ‘Watch out for Anglo’ ... I wish they had have.”
Referring to the “great economic storm” currently under way in Ireland, he warned against excessive pessimism:
“Some gains have been lost, but in truth many remain. I dearly wish there was no crisis. I realise that it would have been better if some things had been done differently, but I will not denigrate the good that has been done,” he added.[70]
However an independent review of the operation of the Department of Finance during Ahern's tenure in government [71] and its performance over the course of a decade, by Canadian expert Rob Wright, revealed how repeated warnings to the government of the dangers of the budgetary policies pursued during the boom years were repeatedly ignored.
Ahern, who was Taoiseach for 11 years, declined to comment on that report compiled by Canadian expert Rob Wright.[69]
Ahern will receive an estimated €135,000 as a combined ministerial and TD’s pension.
Shortly after announcing his retirement from politics, Ahern attacked his successor Brian Cowen over Cowen's failure to communicate with the public and criticised the Government's handling of the EU/IMF bailout. This attack broke the convention that former Taoisigh should not publicly criticise their successors.[72]
The former FF leader said in January 2011 there was no hope of Fianna Fáil retaining two seats in his Dublin Central constituency.[73] None of his party candidates were subsequently elected in his former constituency.
He receives annual pension payments of €152,331.[74]
[edit]Controversy

V_Moth

Foxhound38 wrote: »

I know he isn't exactly the flavour of the week around these parts anymore, but I quite honestly think he gets a worse rap than he deserves. Here was a man who spent his entire life (think he was elected in his early 20's) in public service. He made mistakes economically and we're living through the resultant downturn - nobody is denying that, but I think the celtic tiger wouldn't have happened in the first place without the social partnership model he brokered wih the unions and other society stakeholders being in place.

We had a good reputation abroad when he was in charge, and no other Taoiseach spent so much time with his constituents looking after their needs, which is an essential part of being a TD.

Lets remember too that the downturn happened under Cowan rather than Ahern himself.

I think history will remember him more fondly than the current consensus on him, but what do you think? When his work as Taoiseach is appraised by historians, what do you think his legacy will be?

Let the revisionism begin!

gerryo777

mikemac1 wrote: »

The exact same happens in cities and towns, it's not a rural thing

I'm a union man, my granddad was a union man all his life, so was my Dad and now I'm Labour to the core


For every farmer you see loyal to a party you'll find plenty of working men in towns who vote Labour

No suprise most of their TD's come from Dublin!
And the two socialists

Do you think labour are doing well now?

There not much better than the greens were in the last government.

Only difference is they're holding the country to ransom with their backing of the CPA, an instrument that we can ill afford.

When the changes come, as they inevitably will, labour will walk.

Zebra3

greenfingers89 wrote: »

surely everything that led us to that position was a bigger co ck up.

The bubble left a certain percentage of people screwed with financial problems.

By getting the taxpayer to cover private debt, pretty much everyone was hit.

mikemac1

Wasn't realy commenting on how they are performing gerry

Just the post I quoted was blindly following a party was something for rural Ireland
It goes on in towns and cities too, that's all

gerryo777

mikemac1 wrote: »

Wasn't realy commenting on how they are performing gerry

Just the post I quoted was blindly following a party was something for rural Ireland
It goes on in towns and cities too, that's all

Surely there's a better way to elect our governments.

Madd Finn

Ms.M wrote: »

Economic recklessness. Trying to keep everybody happy and get votes at the expense of economic stability. Ignoring advice. Being corrupt.

He wasn't corrupt. But he was very corruptible.

He was a weak insecure man who just wanted to be everybody's pal and to have everybody think of him as a grand fella. He didn't want riches for himself; just adulation. And he nearly got away with it.

You will search in vain for Bertie's wardrobe of Charvet shirts, or string of racehorses, or Gandon mansion in secluded grounds. He won't even be buying one of those off shore islands that are up for sale at knock-off prices now.

These things weren't important to him.

What was important was being seen as the facilitator, the guy who made things happen for other people. This meant an almost innate inability to say no even to the most stupid request.

He caved into developers. He caved into public sector unions. He tried to pull strokes to get his pet project the Bertie Bowl built and to force the soccer and rugby administrations to back it by closing off any chance of Croke Park being opened to them. It was, by his own admission, his "biggest regret" when the PDs, fair play to them, wouldn't tolerate this grandiose nonsense and forced him to back down.

The irony is that he will go down in history as the biggest gob****e we ever had as Taoiseach. Not the most evil (Haughey) or the most stubborn (De Valera) or the most boneheaded (Cosgrave Junior) or the most maladroit (Fitzgerald) but just the most out of his depth glad handling "I'm everybody's pal" buffoon that ever sat in the Taoiseach's office.

norrie rugger

c_man wrote: »

He'll get some credit for the North but overall his reputation will be down in the mud.

More done by Reynolds here also

Fuinseog

creative use of English -dese, dat dose.



found drinking tea in a cupboard was the last straw.

VIP magazine seems to have dropped him like a hot coal yet there is still a certain amount of gra for the daughter who is up the damien again.


I wonder why he was never jailed for corruption? he just laughed at all the allegations and resigned when he knew our period of prosperity was over and someone else would take the blame for it.
a shameless character whom we entertained and reelected although we knew him to be corrupt.

golden lane

bertie was, as were most irish pesople happy to run with the tiger.....to say he ignored financial advice is correct....as the banks etc also ignored that advice...

they all clung to a vain hope that thing would go right in the end.....they didn't, but the whole of the western world had the same hope....

Grayson

Lots of very eloquent replies to the OP.... I'd like to add to them.... Are you ****ing kidding me? Seriously. Your having a laugh right?

RobbingBandit

Bertie is a Judas, he sold us all out and deserted the sinking ship like the Pied piper leading all his band of merry rats away to cash their 30 pieces of silver.

The man is a prime example of scum, he knew the country was screwed yet he did nothing,only looking after himself and his own. Money was pissed away on the Bertie bowl when it could have been spent on Hospitals and Roads, his legacy will be that he was involved with corrupt bankers,builders and politics. The man is guilty of Treason, a crime punishable by death yet he still gets so much money for dooming us all.

later12

anthonyos wrote: »

if i ever see him i am going to attack him

Alright.

Care to explain why?

Junoesque

Bertie has questions to answer as do all FF ministers. The problem is none of them will be made to answer them and that is his legacy. He could have changed things for the better he chose to make them worse, much worse.

sh1tstirrer

He just lost his entire potato crop to blight.

He was like a blight that destroyed the country.

dd972

that Manchester money was just resting in his account...

thebaz

dd972 wrote: »

that Manchester money was just resting in his account...

was that not the money he won on the races ?

legend

johngalway

Foxhound38 wrote: »

Lets remember too that the downturn happened under Cowan rather than Ahern himself.

Bull****.

They were both in it up to their fat pensionable necks.

What's his legacy?

The IMF.

paddyandy

Bertie Aherne is a symptom of everything wrong in Ireland and the Crisis was the Diagnostics .The Patient is very ill but denies it .

Zebra3

Madd Finn wrote: »

He didn't want riches for himself

Of course he did.

Just he doesn't splash it about.

Quite the miser by all accounts.

asherbassad

Foxhound38 wrote: »

I know he isn't exactly the flavour of the week around these parts anymore, but I quite honestly think he gets a worse rap than he deserves. Here was a man who spent his entire life (think he was elected in his early 20's) in public service. He made mistakes economically and we're living through the resultant downturn - nobody is denying that, but I think the celtic tiger wouldn't have happened in the first place without the social partnership model he brokered wih the unions and other society stakeholders being in place.

We had a good reputation abroad when he was in charge, and no other Taoiseach spent so much time with his constituents looking after their needs, which is an essential part of being a TD.

Lets remember too that the downturn happened under Cowan rather than Ahern himself.

I think history will remember him more fondly than the current consensus on him, but what do you think? When his work as Taoiseach is appraised by historians, what do you think his legacy will be?

That's like blaming Obama for the Iraq War disaster.

Junoesque

If this country ever learns how to conduct proper criminal/fraud inquiries Bertie Ahern will be asked serious questions...

The MiniVan

gerryo777 wrote: »

In ahern's case, the free house, the trips to Manchester, the state merc, the 24 hour security we still pay for etc etc etc...........

Just as an aside, is the money ahern earns giving after dinner speeches in Nigeria:eek: on how to run an economy and a banking sector (I kid you not:D:D:D), taxable in Ireland?

There is something very poetic about us sending over our biggest scammer to Nigeria to rip off a whole country while their general population bombard us with emails everyday trying to con us into giving them our bank details.............

He who laughs last,laughs hardest my Most Honourable Excellence Prince Bunga-Bunga of Nigeria (who wont stop emailing me about depositing 150 million euros into my bank account):)