Regulars, Natives and Outsiders

Iwannahurl

This is a general enquiry, not specific to any particular forum. It concerns a phenomenon which, in my view, is an intrinsic part of Boards 'culture'.

In a previous Feedback thread, a Mod made these comments:

Insect Overlord wrote: »

If the regulars call troll and the mods agree with them, then chances are someone needs to revise the posting-style they're using in that forum.

Insect Overlord wrote: »

Pissing off the natives is another way of describing it. If you're posting somewhere, it's advisable not to deliberately phrase things in such a way that will annoy the regulars/natives.

Just recently, I also saw the word "outsiders" used to describe members who started posting in a particular forum/thread some time ago and whose contributions led to an increase in the use of the Report Post function and hence a greater workload for the Mod(s).

Elsewhere I have seen at least one explicit example of where a "regular/native" was exhorting others to use the Report Post function in order to flag contributions that were merely "annoying" rather than abusive, trolling etc.

It therefore seems to me that, in any given forum, an ad hoc club of like-minded "Regular Natives" can form, and that such a coalition (whether loosely affiliated through shared opinions, or working in collaboration) can effectively use the Report Post function to put pressure on Mods in order to marginalise and deter "Outsiders".

It is natural and understandable that Mods, being volunteers with lives outside of Boards, would not welcome unnecessary hassle, and therefore a blitz of Reported Posts, whether one-off or recurring, relating to a particular member might well flag that member as an Outsider who needs to be managed in some way. It is also possible of course that the Mod(s) might share the same opinions as those hitting the Report Post button.

However, IMHO, the mere fact that Regular Natives do not like an Outsider's opinion should not, as a matter of principle, mean that the latter's opinion is invalid, suspect or worthy of dismissal.

So, in broad Boards terms, who are Regulars, Natives and Outsiders?

Is it simply a case of "we were here first"?

If I joined Boards in 1999 and have contributed 500 posts to a particular forum, is my opinion automatically more valid than someone who made their first post in 2009, regardless of the subject matter and my perspective on it?

Is it justifiable for Regular Natives to use the Report Post function to repeatedly flag unpopular perspectives, dissenting views and minority opinions, thereby increasing a Mod's workload and hence increasing the likelihood that a member will be singled out as an "Outsider"?

Does Boards culture inevitably mean that the Outsider's perspective is inherently suspect, and the Regular Native's perspective inherently more acceptable?

Sharpshooter

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Just recently, I also saw the word "outsiders" used to describe members who started posting in a particular forum/thread some time ago and whose contributions led to an increase in the use of the Report Post function and hence a greater workload for the Mod(s).

Link?

Can I ask what knowledge you have re the Reported post forum?

Iwannahurl

Hi.

I'm trying to keep this broad, as I believe it's a general issue, so I don't want to link to the specific post/thread.

I didn't even know there was a Reported Post Forum.

The reason I highlight the RP function is that I believe it also serves as a mechanism whereby Regular Natives, intentionally or not, identify some posters as Outsiders.

Orim

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Just recently, I also saw the word "outsiders" used to describe members who started posting in a particular forum/thread some time ago and whose contributions led to an increase in the use of the Report Post function and hence a greater workload for the Mod(s).

I would say this is a case of the "outsider" not getting the forum as opposed to any regulars ganging up on the outsider. I've never had any issues here but then again I lurked for years and I know not to go into Ladies Lounge and start spouting off sexist jokes. But equally I'm fairly certain that I will probably get away with in AH or BGRH.

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Elsewhere I have seen at least one explicit example of where a "regular/native" was exhorting others to use the Report Post function in order to flag contributions that were merely "annoying" rather than abusive, trolling etc.

Seems a bit specific to me and I'd doubt anyone is going to say this way it should be. Seems like something to discuss with the mods or cmods of the particular forum.

Iwannahurl wrote: »

It therefore seems to me that, in any given forum, an ad hoc club of like-minded "Regular Natives" can form, and that such a coalition (whether loosely affiliated through shared opinions, or working in collaboration) can effectively use the Report Post function to put pressure on Mods in order to marginalise and deter "Outsiders".

It is natural and understandable that Mods, being volunteers with lives outside of Boards, would not welcome unnecessary hassle, and therefore a blitz of Reported Posts, whether one-off or recurring, relating to a particular member might well flag that member as an Outsider who needs to be managed in some way. It is also possible of course that the Mod(s) might share the same opinions as those hitting the Report Post button.

In any forum where people have been posting for a long time then you will get the regulars who know each other very well but I don't see how they can use reports to marginalise "outsiders" unless the outsider has broken some rules or again is posting against the spirit of the forum. At least that would be the theory. If it's broken then I would imagine the admins would be very interested in the mod that was performing actions in order to marginalise people.

Also I haven't been a mod but I can't imagine that a load of reported posts is a big increase in workload if there is no action needed.

Iwannahurl wrote: »

However, IMHO, the mere fact that Regular Natives do not like an Outsider's opinion should not, as a matter of principle, mean that the latter's opinion is invalid, suspect or worthy of dismissal.

As a matter of principal it wouldn't mean that their opinion is invalid. However depending on the forum the manner of delivery may invalidate their opinion.

Iwannahurl wrote: »

So, in broad Boards terms, who are Regulars, Natives and Outsiders?

Is it simply a case of "we were here first"?

Regulars/Natives = People who regularly use the forum.

Outsiders = A rather dismissive way of saying someone that is outside the regular group. Personnally I prefer the term "useless n00bs" myself.

Iwannahurl wrote: »

If I joined Boards in 1999 and have contributed 500 posts to a particular forum, is my opinion automatically more valid than someone who made their first post in 2009, regardless of the subject matter and my perspective on it?

Is it justifiable for Regular Natives to use the Report Post function to repeatedly flag unpopular perspectives, dissenting views and minority opinions, thereby increasing a Mod's workload and hence increasing the likelihood that a member will be singled out as an "Outsider"?

Does Boards culture inevitably mean that the Outsider's perspective is inherently suspect, and the Regular Native's perspective inherently more acceptable?

I think I've covered all of that above and anything else is me repeating myself where I've already repeated myself.

Although, just for that last bit, what you're talking about has nothing to do with "Boards Culture" and has everything to do people. People will always put a little more weight in argument made by someone they know and respect as opposed to someone they don't know at all.

Micky Dolenz

You've taken my post out of context. It was ironic and a joke. Run of the mill stuff for After Hours.

I'd like to think new posters are welcomed right across the site. It certainly was the case when I started here.

Iwannahurl

OK, fair cop, I missed the irony! I should have known that different rules, or maybe no rules, apply in AH.

I did think, however, that it was a good phrase, even in jest, to sum up what I believe is a common attitude.

IMO the nature of welcome extended to new posters may well depend on whether the views they express coincide with those of the Regular Natives. In some case those views may be entrenched, in the forum as well as IRL.

That doesn't mean that a newcomer's views are inevitably misguided, invalid or otherwise erroneous. A relative newcomer can be 'wrong' just by expressing opinions that do not agree with the consensus among the Regular Natives. That consensus does not make the Regular Natives 'right' either, it just means that they tend to agree with each other (as evidenced by Thanks patterns, for example).

Unfortunately, if the Regular Natives don't like being contradicted or challenged by a newcomer, they may resort to repeated use of the Report Post button. That in turn may draw adverse attention from the Mod(s). If the Mod(s) happen also to share at least some of the Regular Natives' consensus, I would contend that the likelihood of a newcomer being labelled an Outsider is increased.

The RP button can then become a weapon wielded to defend Regular Natives' territory, not a facility for weeding out genuinely offensive or abusive posters.

Insect Overlord

Iwannahurl wrote: »

It therefore seems to me that, in any given forum, an ad hoc club of like-minded "Regular Natives" can form, and that such a coalition (whether loosely affiliated through shared opinions, or working in collaboration) can effectively use the Report Post function to put pressure on Mods in order to marginalise and deter "Outsiders".

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Conspiracy Theories is that way. :pac:

Genuine response:

Iwannahurl wrote: »

However, IMHO, the mere fact that Regular Natives do not like an Outsider's opinion should not, as a matter of principle, mean that the latter's opinion is invalid, suspect or worthy of dismissal.

That's a given, really. A good point should always be recognised as such, whether the post-count next to it says 1 or 10,001. Everybody was a n00b/Outsider/whatever at one point. What new posters should keep in mind though is the ethos/spirit of a forum. Even specific threads in certain fora have specific functions and aren't there for arguments. Someone who deliberately goes against that either needs to a) lurk a little bit longer or b) be banned for trolling.

Iwannahurl wrote: »

If I joined Boards in 1999 and have contributed 500 posts to a particular forum, is my opinion automatically more valid than someone who made their first post in 2009, regardless of the subject matter and my perspective on it?

There are some awful eejits still hanging around this site who joined it long before I did and whose opinions mean a lot less to me than those of posters who've only joined in the last few weeks.

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Is it justifiable for Regular Natives to use the Report Post function to repeatedly flag unpopular perspectives, dissenting views and minority opinions, thereby increasing a Mod's workload and hence increasing the likelihood that a member will be singled out as an "Outsider"?

The Report Post button is used to highlight breaches of site-wide rules/guidelines and breaches of charters in specific fora. Frivolous use of the function is not appreciated.

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Does Boards culture inevitably mean that the Outsider's perspective is inherently suspect, and the Regular Native's perspective inherently more acceptable?

Therefore, no and no.

Ickle Magoo

Iwannahurl wrote: »

The RP button can then become a weapon wielded to defend Regular Natives' territory, not a facility for weeding out genuinely offensive or abusive posters.

While I understand the basic premise of your post, charters invariably contain more "rules" than merely not being offensive or abusive. Being a constant & deliberate disruption to a forum can be a form of trolling - even when not a word of abuse or offensive language is uttered...and as Orim has already pointed out, some forums have a specific function/ethos and thus continually posting against the grain IS very much in breach of forum charter.

It can be a fine-line but ultimately Boards is made up of communities within the greater community and there is little point in allowing one poster to damage that community or reduce the enjoyment the general community get in using that forum - especially if they are being particularly obtuse or awkward in their views with respects to the forum they are posting on/they failed to read the charter.

If it's just a case of clashing views then - much like real life - it's often just be case of giving the forum time to adjust to the new dynamics that new posters create.

Dades

There's no onus on a mod to do anything about a reported post, so I don't agree with it being a "weapon" for use by natives.

If a lot of regulars report some noob's posts it's almost always because that noob just needs some *direction* as to how to post in that particular forum. That isn't to say they have to have the same opinion as the majority - just the way they put that opinion forward needs to be addressed.

There's a particular brand of poster that think they're the first to ever swagger in with a particular argument and often take umbrage when it becomes clear that it isn't new or clever. So often reported posts are more like a "heads-up" that a quiet word is needed, than a demand for someone to be ejected from the club.

Insect Overlord

It's just occurred to me that the ideas in the OP are the same as the ones that led to the Rep/Karma system being rejected here years ago. That's a very different system to the Report Post button, but I can understand how someone who isn't familiar with Boards modding could see some similarities.

Orion

Dades wrote: »

If a lot of regulars report some noob's posts it's almost always because that noob just needs some *direction* as to how to post in that particular forum. That isn't to say they have to have the same opinion as the majority - just the way they put that opinion forward needs to be addressed.

What Dades said.

For me - I read the post before looking at the poster. That goes for reported posts too.

If a regular has a post reported that's out of character for that regular then a quiet pm is usually sufficient. That would be invisible to anyone else but it's been dealt with. Blatant breaches of decorum are dealt with publicly irregardless of post history.

New posters acting the mick would get a similar tolerance but in public from the get-go and with less leeway for repeat performances.

This is just human nature - someone you know and trust who gets a headrush will get more tolerance than someone who just breezes in and stirs the sh1t from the off.

As regards 'natives' reporting posts ... non-issue. A reported post is judged on the post not on who reported it. Someone with 0 posts can report a post and that post is dealt with if necessary. An admin may report a post and we may find it acceptable and leave it alone.

All of the above has happened in the last year modding Parenting.