Fabia MPI: Does it have stretch bolts

samih

Hi,

doing a head gasket job on a '00 Fabia MPI (pushrod) on cheap. Stripped the head out last night, and even though it was cooked pretty well and driven for some miles without coolant the head is not warped so worth saving. Old gasket seemed to have leaked from cylinder one to the water jacket. Mating surfaces look perfect so not going to get this skimmed or anything, just a careful clean of both surfaces. It appears there were fair spread of bolt torque between individual bolts and they were generally less torqued near the failed end, maybe a contributing factor.

So finally a question: Are the fabia bolts stretch or not? They didn't feel like they were and I read some conflicting information. If they are normal bots we'll reuse them. New headset seems to be around 30..40 mark, and the engine badly needs a new timing chain kit which looks to be less than €30. So with filters, oil, coolant, sparks should get this done for roughly €100 including that overdue service, unless I need the bolts. Do I?

hiluxman

have you got an engine code? according to auto data it says you dont have to replace the headbolts if its the skoda engine but i need an engine code to make sure. Im presuming its the 1.3 skoda engine if it has pushrods.

eth0

Does the timing chain need to be done periodically or only if it gives trouble?

hiluxman

only if the chain is making noise, its not like a timing belt that has to be changed at certin intervals

Nissan doctor

samih wrote: »

Hi,

doing a head gasket job on a '00 Fabia MPI (pushrod) on cheap. Stripped the head out last night, and even though it was cooked pretty well and driven for some miles without coolant the head is not warped so worth saving. Old gasket seemed to have leaked from cylinder one to the water jacket. Mating surfaces look perfect so not going to get this skimmed or anything, just a careful clean of both surfaces. It appears there were fair spread of bolt torque between individual bolts and they were generally less torqued near the failed end, maybe a contributing factor.

So finally a question: Are the fabia bolts stretch or not? They didn't feel like they were and I read some conflicting information. If they are normal bots we'll reuse them. New headset seems to be around 30..40 mark, and the engine badly needs a new timing chain kit which looks to be less than €30. So with filters, oil, coolant, sparks should get this done for roughly €100 including that overdue service, unless I need the bolts. Do I?

How have you checked if the head is warped or not? If its even a couple of thousands of an inch off then the repair will not last any length.

The old bolts not all being the same tightness is a sure sign of warping.

On the skoda 1.3 engine the bolts are listed as non stretch bolts so they don't need replacing, but this will be assuming that they haven't been damaged by the overheating/warping, which it sounds like yours have.

samih

Nissan doctor wrote: »

samih wrote: »

Hi,

doing a head gasket job on a '00 Fabia MPI (pushrod) on cheap. Stripped the head out last night, and even though it was cooked pretty well and driven for some miles without coolant the head is not warped so worth saving. Old gasket seemed to have leaked from cylinder one to the water jacket. Mating surfaces look perfect so not going to get this skimmed or anything, just a careful clean of both surfaces. It appears there were fair spread of bolt torque between individual bolts and they were generally less torqued near the failed end, maybe a contributing factor.

So finally a question: Are the fabia bolts stretch or not? They didn't feel like they were and I read some conflicting information. If they are normal bots we'll reuse them. New headset seems to be around 30..40 mark, and the engine badly needs a new timing chain kit which looks to be less than €30. So with filters, oil, coolant, sparks should get this done for roughly €100 including that overdue service, unless I need the bolts. Do I?

How have you checked if the head is warped or not? If its even a couple of thousands of an inch off then the repair will not last any length.

The old bolts not all being the same tightness is a sure sign of warping.

On the skoda 1.3 engine the bolts are listed as non stretch bolts so they don't need replacing, but this will be assuming that they haven't been damaged by the overheating/warping, which it sounds like yours have.

I'll have to give the head a good session with the old metal ruler once we have finished stripping and cleaning it. I know it should be taken in the shop but if it passes the scrutiny I'm planning to slap it together against the recommendation of getting it machined. I have been bold before and have been lucky so far. If the valve guides or sealing surfaces are worn it will have to go in for sure.

Thanks for the info on bolts,they do look quite beefy so thought they may be solid. Very easy engine to work this one, only tight bit so far was the two bottommost fasteners for the inlet manifold.

I'll let you know when the work progresses. There maybe a week or two of slow mo.

Nissan doctor

samih wrote: »

I'll have to give the head a good session with the old metal ruler once we have finished stripping and cleaning it. I know it should be taken in the shop but if it passes the scrutiny I'm planning to slap it together against the recommendation of getting it machined. I have been bold before and have been lucky so far. If the valve guides or sealing surfaces are worn it will have to go in for sure.

Thanks for the info on bolts,they do look quite beefy so thought they may be solid. Very easy engine to work this one, only tight bit so far was the two bottommost fasteners for the inlet manifold.

I'll let you know when the work progresses. There maybe a week or two of slow mo.

Sure having it skimmed is only approx €40 - €50, surely worth it to save the possibility of having to strip it all back down again, which would mean having to buy another head gasket etc?

samih

Nissan doctor wrote: »

Sure having it skimmed is only approx €40 - €50, surely worth it to save the possibility of having to strip it all back down again, which would mean having to buy another head gasket etc?

Yeah, it might not be the right place to save money and as the car has been off the road for a while an extra few days won't really matter.

I'll strip the head in the weekend to check out the valve guides etc. and will most likely take it to be skimmed next week. Is Howard still the place to use in Dublin?

Nissan doctor

samih wrote: »

Yeah, it might not be the right place to save money and as the car has been off the road for a while an extra few days won't really matter.

I'll strip the head in the weekend to check out the valve guides etc. and will most likely take it to be skimmed next week. Is Howard still the place to use in Dublin?

I stopped using Howards as I found their work very sloppy and always had to clean loads of swarf and dirt from heads when I got them back.

I use cylinder head services in Kilbarrack.

samih

Disassembled and cleaned the head yesterday. There was a slightly rough corroded patch where the gasket had burnt so off the cylinder head services it goes today.

On good news the engine seems to be fine shape, i.e. cylinders have no noticeable wear and honing marks are still visible, valve guides are tight etc. Some of the exhaust valves have very early signs of leakage, I'll ask the guys in Killbarrack if they can lap them. Otherwise will need to buy grinding paste and a lapping tool.

samih

Got the skimmed and ground head back and assembled the valves last night. Got very good service from Cylinder Head Services in Killbarrack, thanks for recommendation. The fella there commented that the head was well cooked and had a good bit of warp needing a 0.4mm skim.

Would anybody happen to have the head bolt tightening angles, please? Tried to google them but only found values for 1.4 16v (30Nm + 90° + 90°). This does not sound right for solid bolts.

Timing chain also arrived, now have all the parts ready for the reassembly, just missing the angles.

Edit: ATZ engine code

Nissan doctor

samih wrote: »

Got the skimmed and ground head back and assembled the valves last night. Got very good service from Cylinder Head Services in Killbarrack, thanks for recommendation. The fella there commented that the head was well cooked and had a good bit of warp needing a 0.4mm skim.

Would anybody happen to have the head bolt tightening angles, please? Tried to google them but only found values for 1.4 16v (30Nm + 90° + 90°). This does not sound right for solid bolts.

Timing chain also arrived, now have all the parts ready for the reassembly, just missing the angles.

Edit: ATZ engine code

Its 20nm, then 90 degree's twice for the main for the 10 main head bolts and just 20nm for the 4 bolts at the front of then engine(closest to you).

samih

Nissan doctor wrote: »

samih wrote: »

Got the skimmed and ground head back and assembled the valves last night. Got very good service from Cylinder Head Services in Killbarrack, thanks for recommendation. The fella there commented that the head was well cooked and had a good bit of warp needing a 0.4mm skim.

Would anybody happen to have the head bolt tightening angles, please? Tried to google them but only found values for 1.4 16v (30Nm + 90° + 90°). This does not sound right for solid bolts.

Timing chain also arrived, now have all the parts ready for the reassembly, just missing the angles.

Edit: ATZ engine code

Its 20nm, then 90 degree's twice for the main for the 10 main head bolts and just 20nm for the 4 bolts at the front of then engine(closest to you).

Cheers ND. I guess 180 deg is only half a turn, so not that much really... Good to know that the front edge ones are so low torque.

Thanks again!

Nissan doctor

samih wrote: »

Cheers ND. I guess 180 deg is only half a turn, so not that much really... Good to know that the front edge ones are so low torque.

Thanks again!

Don't do 180 deg at once though, do them all 90 deg and then do them 90 deg again.

samih

Nissan doctor wrote: »

Don't do 180 deg at once though, do them all 90 deg and then do them 90 deg again.

Check, 180 deg total done in halfs (to lessen the strain of the head when torquing down). If the thread bolts have a pitch of say 1.5 the new gasket will be flattened by 0.75 mm during the process and that would be bit of a strain for the head if not done in stages.

samih

Full day of work behind on Saturday but Fabia is still not running.

It was a great weather so torqued the cylinder head (30Nm + 90 + 90 felt just about right), replaced timing chain and cogs, cleaned oil pick up and sump, checked oil pump for signs of wear. Made only one mistake on reassembly, namely the exhaust manifold heat shield won't fit in with inlet manifold attached, so had to do the inlet manifold twice.

Upon refilling coolant found out that two of the three core plugs on top of the head were leaking. That was rather unexpected as a leak there means coolant will flow straight in the sump and there was no sign of coolant in oil when I trained the sump. I'm speculating that the core plugs must have been disturbed in the final stages of overheating process when there was no coolant left to escape while the water jacket was highly pressurised by the escaping cylinder gases.

New core plugs will necessitate un-torquing the head once more as they lie under the rocker arm assembly which in turn is held down by some of the head bolts. Ordered the parts this morning, no stock, ETA on Wednesday. Diameter is 20 mm if anybody else ever needs to renew those. Planning to do drive in the plugs with head in situ so that I don't need to disassemble the manifolds etc. yet again.

So getting close but no cigar yet.

mickdw

Nissan Doctor said 20 Nm not 30 btw.

samih

Yeah, so he did and 20Nm I used (sorry for wrong info above), cheers.

Anyway, nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo, the engine won't fire. Drove the new core plugs in the head last night and reassembled everything. Set the tappets (firing order 1-3-4-2, fully loosened all and turned the screws until the rockers met top of the valves and another 1 turn after that). Drained about a liter of coolant from the sump, refilled cooling system and poured in motor oil. No more coolant pissing out anyways.

Upon turning the key to ignition, immo light, oil pressure, alternator, EPC (management) come on, I can hear the fuel pump running to pressurise the system. When turning the key further started engages, EPC light goes out, I think the oil pressure light goes off already before the starter engages (probably tries to be smart and won't show unless pressure is lost when engine running). Engine turns as expected but doesn't even try to fire. Spark seems to be ok, i.e. the new plugs inserted in the coil pack and grounded against the head produces strong spark. There are no pops, struggle against starter, nothing. This is even after several long starts.

Checked all the wiring and plumbing and found a missing vacuum line to the fuel regulator which I rectified but it didn't make any difference.

Splashed fuel down the throttle body, again no attempt to start.

Compression seems good with four even compressions per two turns of engine and hear the hissing sound of pressure leaking towards crank case. I also sanity checked timing: The inlet valve of cyl 1 opens roughly at TDC and closes near the bottom and exhaust valve begins to open one revolution later when the piston begins to travel up and closes around TDC. It still leaves possibility of crank timing 360 degrees out when the chain was replaced (my initial thought of how timing is done was not correct and eventually I found out that the two dots should be 12 links apart). Does anybody know if the skoda ignition is wasted spark type, i.e. the firing not only occurs during at compression cycle but also during the end of the exhaust cycle. Wasted spark means that timing out by a full 360 degrees would not matter, right.

Not sure what else to check. I don't know if car has an OBD-II socket. If it does (didn't find it in the morning but it's apparently under an oddment tray under the dash), I do have a BT interface and "torque" application to check for error codes. I have a strong feeling that I'll have to tow it somewhere to troubleshooting... It was a runner before the work began so all of the ignition/fuel system components should be there.

Edit: Decided to invest in a Haynes for the car as I'm thinking that the timing may be off but couldn't find a diagram anywhere online. In any case won't have time to work on the car until weekend next. Also, my ramblings about crank being 360 deg off doesn't make much sense after more thought put in it as the trigger wheel for the engine management is also at the flywheel so nothing to out of sync there.

Nissan doctor

I'm guessing you meant 180deg off?

If you car has the single coilpack then its not a wasted spark set up anyway.

The woodruff key on the crank shaft pulley should be at 12 o'clock(with cylinder 1 at TDC) and the cam pulley's woodruff key should be at approx 10-11 o'clock, with, as you say, 12 link pins between the marks on the two pulleys.

Here are the notes from Autodata:

Valve timing procedures

Turn crankshaft until timing marks positioned as shown Fig.11735.1.
Ensure there are 12 chain link rollers located between timing marks.
Tighten camshaft sprocket bolt Fig.11735.2:
(A) 105-136, Estelle, Rapid: 30-35 Nm.
(B) Favorit, Felicia, Forman, Pick-up: 35 Nm.
Tighten camshaft sprocket bolt Fig.11735.3:
Fabia/Octavia: 25 Nm.
Coat camshaft sprocket bolt Fig.11735.3 with suitable thread locking compound.
Tighten crankshaft pulley bolt Fig.11735.4:
(A) 105-136, Estelle, Rapid: 100-120 Nm.
(B) Favorit, Felicia, Forman, Pick-up: 120 Nm.
Tighten crankshaft pulley bolt Fig.11735.5:
(A) Fabia/Octavia: 100 Nm.
(B) Felicia: 120 Nm.
Coat crankshaft pulley bolt Fig.11735.5 with suitable thread locking compound.

And the diagram:

samih

Cheers Nissan Doctor, that's some quality information. I can see at least one difference, i.e. I aligned the dots with the same pins of the two links. Also didn't have the crank woodruff pointing to 12 o'clock, but can't visualise if that would put the timing off itself.

Thanks a million, will read understood and print this page before the next attempt.

samih

Just a quick update after taking the oil pan and timing chain cover out again. The timing was a out a good bit (cam woodruff was pointing to 9 o'clock where the dot wasn't even on the chain with crank at 12 o'clock). Not sure how I managed that and the diagram makes it painfully clear where the problem was.

Trying to get the car back together after the weekend.

eth0

Obd port is different in lhd and rhd but on mine tis to the left of the steering wheel (lhd). A small tray thing but if you pull it down further a bit of plastic will give way and the obd port is behind it. A bit of a clumsy ould design tbh

samih

Had some time to work the car on Sunday and it's running now. Yay! Thanks for the diagrams Nissan Doctor.

Found a final problem, i.e. thermostat had rusted shut. Noticed that the temp was creeping up when idling in the garden while the fan didn't kick in. I was suspecting a broken fan switch, I let it cool down for 30 minutes and went for a spin. The temp soon began to creep towards red again while top hose remained cold. After three cooling breaks and heater at full blast I made it back from her maiden voyage under it's own steam (Ahem). I suspect that failed thermostat may have been the real culprit for the burnt hg.

Removed the mangled stat (the lock ring came out in three pieces, not a good idea to run an engine with water only, Kevin) and the temperature now behaves.

Ordered a new thermostat housing thingy (the old one looked worse for wear anyway) and will need to drain the coolant again on the 500 mile service where the engine will get fresh oil and filter.

And what did that all cost (prices rounded to the nearest euro):

Top end gasket kit: €48
Timing chain kit: €32
Core plugs: €7
Oil/filters/coolant/plugs: €64
Head skim/valve lap: €120 (skim would have been just €30)
Tube of anaerobic instant gasket: €8
Haynes manual (that arrived too late): €24
Thermostat housing: €53

€350ish in total and don't know how many hours of work. Bit more than I was hoping beforehand but so is life.

Edit: eth0, didn't need to read the codes in the end but thanks for the info that I'll retain for the future.

Nissan doctor

Fair play. Glad you got it all sorted in the end.

samih

Cheers, the engine runs really quietly now with that new chain. Thank you for everybody for help and talking me out for taking shortcuts regarding skimming.