No Maths Qualifications?

loveroflight

I found this study by Dr Ailish Hannigan and Maire Ni Riordan from 2009 very interesting reading.
http://www.nce-mstl.ie/files/Out-of-field%20teaching%20in%20post-primary%20Maths%20Education.pdf

They found "• 48% of the teachers did not have a mathematics teaching qualification.
• Of the 156 (48%) of teachers without a mathematics teaching qualification, 35% had a BSc. primary degree
(without a significant mathematics component), 34% had a B. Commerce /Business primary degree (without a
significant mathematics component) and 27% had a concurrent teacher education degree without mathematics"

I think this was the problem which should have been given greater consideration before changing the syllabus. This would have had much more impact on our students experience with Maths.

johnc12

loveroflight wrote: »

I found this study by Dr Ailish Hannigan and Maire Ni Riordan from 2009 very interesting reading.
http://www.nce-mstl.ie/files/Out-of-field%20teaching%20in%20post-primary%20Maths%20Education.pdf

They found "• 48% of the teachers did not have a mathematics teaching qualification.
• Of the 156 (48%) of teachers without a mathematics teaching qualification, 35% had a BSc. primary degree
(without a significant mathematics component), 34% had a B. Commerce /Business primary degree (without a
significant mathematics component) and 27% had a concurrent teacher education degree without mathematics"
I think this was the problem which should have been should have been given greater consideration before changing the syllabus.

Leaving cart math is not that difficult.

First year math in university is more than enough.

bdoo

loveroflight wrote: »

I found this study by Dr Ailish Hannigan and Maire Ni Riordan from 2009 very interesting reading.
http://www.nce-mstl.ie/files/Out-of-field%20teaching%20in%20post-primary%20Maths%20Education.pdf

They found "• 48% of the teachers did not have a mathematics teaching qualification.
• Of the 156 (48%) of teachers without a mathematics teaching qualification, 35% had a BSc. primary degree
(without a significant mathematics component), 34% had a B. Commerce /Business primary degree (without a
significant mathematics component) and 27% had a concurrent teacher education degree without mathematics"

I think this was the problem which should have been given greater consideration before changing the syllabus. This would have had much more impact on our students experience with Maths.

By those figures there are only 300 maths teachers in Ireland. I haven't got the time to read the full report. That figure as you present it has got to be way off. 730 schools. Do the maths!

Perhaps the knowledge of pedagogical aspects maths may be lacking but i think proficiency in maths would be covered.

The former is the concern of course. The ul course is now available to upskill said teachers in any case.

TheDriver

i would recommend you sit down and listen to those so called researchers. I remember listening to a report by them once which blamed us teachers for not preparing kids right for uni and there needs to be a change in teacher training. They shut up quick enough when the topic of lecturer training was raised from the floor.

I would take all their positivist attitudes with a pinch of salt.

RealJohn

I think we need to look at the level of maths of the primary teachers or probably more accurately, the level of maths of students going into first year in secondary school. It's hard to teach second level maths to students who can't perform fundamental operations. It shouldn't be up to secondary maths teachers to start from scratch in areas that are supposed to have been well covered in primary school.

Moody_mona

RealJohn wrote: »

I think we need to look at the level of maths of the primary teachers or probably more accurately, the level of maths of students going into first year in secondary school. It's hard to teach second level maths to students who can't perform fundamental operations. It shouldn't be up to secondary maths teachers to start from scratch in areas that are supposed to have been well covered in primary school.

Definitely agree with this. I've only been teaching one year but this September I had to try to convince my 1st years that you COULD subtract 7 from 3 and that it wasnt impossible as they had been told! Now I'm not suggesting they were taught the concept of negative numbers but maybe "you'll learn about that next year" rather than telling them it cant happen. I understand there's a primary school curriculum but perhaps if there was an assessment in 6th class to ensure the fundamentals have been taught might work.

whiteandlight

At a project maths inservice we were told by the RDO to assume no knowledge of fractions at all in first year students. I mean seriously?!

Moody_mona

Are primary schools being made aware of Project Maths and it's approaches or would their curriculum by similar and hands on anyway? It should definitely be a joint approach because assuming no knowledge of fractions is ridiculously, way too much to be doing!

Caiseoipe19

johnc12 wrote: »

Leaving cart math is not that difficult.

First year math in university is more than enough.

Very general statement there. What type of university course are you talking about- pure mathematics or a more applied maths course? Also do you hold this opinion for both honours and pass university courses?

TheDriver

this whole topic was done to death last year on this forum.......

doc_17

I suppose the figure (156) was just a sample and they assumed for the population.

dambarude

Moody_mona wrote: »

Definitely agree with this. I've only been teaching one year but this September I had to try to convince my 1st years that you COULD subtract 7 from 3 and that it wasnt impossible as they had been told! Now I'm not suggesting they were taught the concept of negative numbers but maybe "you'll learn about that next year" rather than telling them it cant happen. I understand there's a primary school curriculum but perhaps if there was an assessment in 6th class to ensure the fundamentals have been taught might work.

Children DO learn about negative numbers in primary school. They learn what they are in 5th class, and how to subtract/add them in 6th.

The reason some might still think 7-3 is impossible is because of the way subtraction is taught. If doing:
1 5
- 9
They say '5 take away 9 I cannot do, I must rename'.

Moody_mona

dambarude wrote: »

Children DO learn about negative numbers in primary school. They learn what they are in 5th class, and how to subtract/add them in 6th.

Ok. Thanks. My students were not taught about negative numbers and they had no concept of what was on the "other side" of the zero. What should they be able to do after 6th class Dambarude? Questions like -4 -3 = and -3 + 4 = ? Or would you phrase things like "John lends Mary €8, if she pays back €2 how much does she owe now"?

dambarude

Moody_mona wrote: »

Ok. Thanks. My students were not taught about negative numbers and they had no concept of what was on the "other side" of the zero. What should they be able to do after 6th class Dambarude? Questions like -4 -3 = and -3 + 4 = ? Or would you phrase things like "John lends Mary €8, if she pays back €2 how much does she owe now"?

The Maths curriculum is available here: http://www.ncca.ie/uploadedfiles/Curriculum/Maths_Curr.pdf . The Strand is Number, strand unit is 'directed number'.

A question like -4 - 3= may need to be explained to them, as they would only have come across it in the form -4 + -3= up until that point. Note the language used would be 'negative four plus negative three equals'.

This is the section, the left column is fifth class, the right column is sixth:

Minier81

johnc12 wrote: »

Leaving cart math is not that difficult.

First year math in university is more than enough.

Utterly ridiculous statement.

Mwalimu

loveroflight wrote: »

I found this study by Dr Ailish Hannigan and Maire Ni Riordan from 2009 very interesting reading.
http://www.nce-mstl.ie/files/Out-of-field%20teaching%20in%20post-primary%20Maths%20Education.pdf

They found "• 48% of the teachers did not have a mathematics teaching qualification.
• Of the 156 (48%) of teachers without a mathematics teaching qualification, 35% had a BSc. primary degree
(without a significant mathematics component), 34% had a B. Commerce /Business primary degree (without a
significant mathematics component) and 27% had a concurrent teacher education degree without mathematics"

I think this was the problem which should have been given greater consideration before changing the syllabus. This would have had much more impact on our students experience with Maths.

It was probably part of the problem and will be part of the solution as well. The Department recently announced a post-grad course that is to start in the autumn. It's specifically aimed at current maths teachers who do not meet the Teaching Council requirements for registration as a maths teacher.
Knowing the maths and knowing how to teach it effectively are not the same thing. It takes both, and a willingness to learn on an ongoing basis.