Just how good are professional footballers?

bohsboy

Pro footballers are built up to be a bit much I think.

You cant beat the raw guts of a junior player who would put his body on the line for his team in the Phoenix Park league. I've seen average players in their teens constantly improve during their 20s and I firmly believe if a player or team is well drilled, organised, passionate and above all else fit, they will press any opposition team.

Late developers are often overlooked but with maturity comes better players.

Iused2likebusts

bohsboy wrote: »

Pro footballers are built up to be a bit much I think.

You cant beat the raw guts of a junior player who would put his body on the line for his team in the Phoenix Park league. I've seen average players in their teens constantly improve during their 20s and I firmly believe if a player or team is well drilled, organised, passionate and above all else fit, they will press any opposition team.

Late developers are often overlooked but with maturity comes better players.

Its all well and good putting your body on the line but chances are you wont get a touch of the ball or when you do you will be too tired to do anything with it. Think spain v ireland and it would be the same for the phoenix parks finest against a decent leinster senior team ,never mind loi, never mind stoke ,never mind barcelona.

bohsboy

Iused2likebusts wrote: »

Its all well and good putting your body on the line but chances are you wont get a touch of the ball or when you do you will be too tired to do anything with it. Think spain v ireland and it would be the same for the phoenix parks finest against a decent leinster senior team ,never mind loi, never mind stoke ,never mind barcelona.

A well organised team that works hard is always hard to break down. Look at the Irish team for the last 30 years, notoriously hard to beat while having not the most gifted players.

Green Giant

Deleted User wrote: »

He's probably the last one to make it in that fashion though.

A very exceptional case, I know, but Steve Savidan didn't play professionally until he was 26 and went on to be capped for France in 2008. Until he signed full-time with Valenciennes he earned his keep as a binman.

Iused2likebusts

bohsboy wrote: »

A well organised team that works hard is always hard to break down. Look at the Irish team for the last 30 years, notoriously hard to beat while having not the most gifted players.

Id disagree apart from the last 3 or 4 years and a period between the end of charlton era and 2000. We have had fairly good irish teams over the last 30 years. We had some excellent players between euro 88 and usa 94. The first 5/6 years of the noughties we also had a good batch of players.
Of course a well organised team is hard to beat but a well organised bunch of phoenix parkers would get annihalated by any proffessional team.

ThunbergsAreGo

Green Giant wrote: »

A very exceptional case, I know, but Steve Savidan didn't play professionally until he was 26 and went on to be capped for France in 2008. Until he signed full-time with Valenciennes he earned his keep as a binman.

The Football RAmble had a feature on him, some story

Vinz Mesrine

I have played with a former LOI player and captain of Limerick, he was a centre half and absolutely streets ahead of anybody else on the pitch. The funny thing is, his brother was always a better player than him but never made it as far.

It annoys me when I see/hear people in the pub or sitting in a stand calling "x" player rubbish. No, they are professional footballers, you are sitting in the pub. They are far from "rubbish".

Green Giant

Green Giant wrote: »

A very exceptional case, I know, but Steve Savidan didn't play professionally until he was 26 and went on to be capped for France in 2008. Until he signed full-time with Valenciennes he earned his keep as a binman.

Meant "one of". :P

bucketybuck

bohsboy wrote: »

A well organised team that works hard is always hard to break down. Look at the Irish team for the last 30 years, notoriously hard to beat while having not the most gifted players.

You are using an example of an Irish team of professionals playing against other teams of professionals, its not really answering the question is it. When its pro against pro then of course the other intangibles such as hard work and graft come into the equation.

You put 11 hard working fitness freaks against 11 professional footballers in a match and the 11 hard workers are getting hammered, no question about it.

Dr. Kenneth Noisewater

witnessmenow wrote: »

Growing up I was neighbours with a fella who currently plays with a League 1 team. He played in my back garden, I was on the same team as him under age for a while. He was way better than anyone on the pitch every time he played.

We got to the quarter finals of U-12 Lenisters community games soccer with a reasonably small eligible player base (small section of Athlone) with a completely average team because he was brilliant.

Maybe it just didn't work out for him, he got unlucky with a couple managers not picking him or whatever but I always wondered how good a premiership player must be if didnt make it(to the premiership)!

Alan Sheehan?

bohsboy

bucketybuck wrote: »

You put 11 hard working fitness freaks against 11 professional footballers in a match and the 11 hard workers are getting hammered, no question about it.

Not always. As I said, if you are organised, well drilled, passionate and above all fit, you will cause serious problems to most teams. There are cup upsets every year from amateur teams.

The wrapped in cotton wool pro's hate playing the spirited team.

Brussels Sprout

bohsboy wrote: »

Not always. As I said, if you are organised, well drilled, passionate and above all fit, you will cause serious problems to most teams. There are cup upsets every year from amateur teams.

The cup upsets that you refer to are when a team knocks out another team who are, at most, 4 divisions above them. These lower level team players will still be brilliant footballers compared to the average Sunday league player.

The poster was referring to a scenario where you pit a team of professionals versus a team of super fit recreational players.

If you got any team playing Junior football in Ireland and played them versus Sunderland the juniors wouldn't win one game in 100 no matter how fit and organised they are.

SantryRed

bohsboy wrote: »

A well organised team that works hard is always hard to break down. Look at the Irish team for the last 30 years, notoriously hard to beat while having not the most gifted players.

If you honestly think that, you haven't a clue.

EuropeanSon

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xRZSHRe6azk

I know this is just showing off vs some kids, but the speed and precision of the passing and control show how technically good they are with the ball very well.

Bleating Lamb

Have played Junior soccer at reasonably high level,Often had chat about this with a few teammates while watching a premiership game on a Sunday....posed a few hypothetical Q's....,could any of us if 110% fit play 90 mins in Premiership game and what would be 'safest' position to play where you wouldn't make a show of yourself or cost team points??:)
Our conclusions were that CM would be best place in a David Batty type role:),just laying off short sharp passes and lumping it out of play if caught under pressure;)

bohsboy

SantryRed wrote: »

If you honestly think that, you haven't a clue.

Which part?

LuckyLloyd

bohsboy wrote: »

Not always. As I said, if you are organised, well drilled, passionate and above all fit, you will cause serious problems to most teams. There are cup upsets every year from amateur teams.

The wrapped in cotton wool pro's hate playing the spirited team.

But those "amateur" teams would be incredibly high level amateur outfits, with players that have floated a grey line between lower pro levels and higher level amateur ball.

When a team like Sheriff goes on a run in the FAI Cup they will have a couple of players who could be playing LOI ball if they wanted - but aren't interested in the time sacrifice of trips to Ballyboofey on a Friday, etc.

In the FA Cup, non league teams who have pulled off a couple of upsets like Dagenham and Redbridge generally are a sign of a club on their way to league football. So you're still talking about elite players - guys who played at the top level in their age groups as teenagers; maybe spent time on a representative side; maybe had trials or spent time in an academy or two and then kept fit and playing at a high level of amateur ball when the professional dream died. They are still incredibly elite players, in the top five percentiles.

Morzadec

EuropeanSon wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xRZSHRe6azk

I know this is just showing off vs some kids, but the speed and precision of the passing and control show how technically good they are with the ball very well.

That was a great watch!

Some of that video is ridiculously impressive, and RVP isn't even a player I'd think of as having a 'box full of tricks'.

Yes it's easy to keep the ball of kids due to physical superiority, but some of those nutmegs he's perform on grown men no problem also, as well as still being far stonger/fitter in general than most amatuer players.

Interesting thread by the way

upandcumming

bohsboy wrote: »

Not always. As I said, if you are organised, well drilled, passionate and above all fit, you will cause serious problems to most teams. There are cup upsets every year from amateur teams.

The wrapped in cotton wool pro's hate playing the spirited team.

No. Just no.

upandcumming

Morzadec wrote: »

That was a great watch!

Some of that video is ridiculously impressive, and RVP isn't even a player I'd think of as having a 'box full of tricks'.

Yes it's easy to keep the ball of kids due to physical superiority, but some of those nutmegs he's perform on grown men no problem also, as well as still being far stonger/fitter in general than most amatuer players.

Interesting thread by the way

Heskey has a box full of tricks too.

bullvine

I worked with a Brazilian who was with Schalke I think it was at one stage, I never saw him play but the lads at work use to say that he'd play at the back the whole time taking it handy but if it ever went to next goal wins, he'd just get the ball and score in like 5 secs.

There was not many mugs at this game either..

AgileMyth

I used to play Astro with a guy who played a couple of games for Longford in his late teens but didn't make the grade and plays junior football now.

He dominated those games fairly handy. We were doing a sports orientated course at the time so the standard would be fairly decent. And he couldn't get near a first division team.

Fuzzy_Dunlop

EuropeanSon wrote: »

I know this is just showing off vs some kids

Yeah and he beat their brains out :pac:

asdfgh86

Fuzzy_Dunlop wrote: »

Yeah and he beat their brains out :pac:

Corholio

Played 5 a side regularly with a guy that looks like he's about to sign for a Championship club in England from Cork City. Was a few years younger and very raw, but his finishing even then was class. Yes, it's only 5 a side, but you can tell a bit about taking chances in games like that.

Played against Colin Healy once a few years back, his natural vision and control was just something else. I think when you watch top professional players you realise that some of the things they do that are quality are things they do without even thinking and just a natural body movement to them, I think that's the difference between a lot of players.

franglan

I play for a team over here in London, one of the lads was a trainee at Man City, Bolton and was an England schoolboy. Watching him play it's the things he does when he is not in contact with the ball that is different to the rest of us. His body shape when stopping the opponent from having the chance to get a foot in/his shielding of the ball is a key difference. Probably the most important attribute is the ability to get control of the ball with one touch and to be able to go forward/pass with the second touch. The second move for him has to be formulated before the first touch, so he knows fairly accurately what his opponent will do and he's beyond that attempt to win the ball with the second touch. From going to a reasonable amount of professional games from European matches down to League One level for me it's the ability to control the ball as close to you as possibly with the least amount of touches.

witnessmenow

deccurley wrote: »

Alan Sheehan?

I guess he is the only League 1 player from Athlone

GBXI

franglan wrote: »

I play for a team over here in London, one of the lads was a trainee at Man City, Bolton and was an England schoolboy. Watching him play it's the things he does when he is not in contact with the ball that is different to the rest of us. His body shape when stopping the opponent from having the chance to get a foot in/his shielding of the ball is a key difference. Probably the most important attribute is the ability to get control of the ball with one touch and to be able to go forward/pass with the second touch. The second move for him has to be formulated before the first touch, so he knows fairly accurately what his opponent will do and he's beyond that attempt to win the ball with the second touch. From going to a reasonable amount of professional games from European matches down to League One level for me it's the ability to control the ball as close to you as possibly with the least amount of touches.

This is the answer to everyone looking for the difference between professionals and the rest. Ability to control the ball and continue the play in tight, pressurised situations.

dan1895

As bad as Shels were last year and despite watching them for about 15 years, I'm still impressed with the ball control when watching them at close quarters. It was most obvious against the two non-league teams from Cork we played in the cup.

Nerdlingr

Following on from that Van Persie video on the other page, i always get a laugh out of this, the skills on Owen...he's some w@nker!!!

Jimmy Iovine

I played some astro with a few lads from my team last summer. Playing with us were three professionals in England, a young lad on a soccer scholarship in America and a former LOI player.

They were starting off their pre-season and it showed. They were a bit slow on the ball and fitness wouldn't have been the greatest. I was the most unfit there but I scored four goals, including a belter. Ball was crossed to me, I took it on my thigh and in one movement I struck it in top corner.

I've no doubt that the pros were going back to their clubs telling their mates about this unbelievable guy they saw playing astro.

The only one of them that is still playing at that level was the standout though. He looks a beast. He's playing with Villa at the moment - Mikey Drennan.

I've trained with David Mulcahy a few times. The runs we were doing looked so easy for him. The muscles in his legs were bigger than in both of my arms put together.

764dak

dreamers75

Played against Mick Byrne ex rovers legend a few years ago and I was given the task of marking him.

To this day im convinced he broke the laws of physics and paused mid air looked around then headed the ball. We lost 1-0 and at 25 playing someone 20 years older than with no pace. He was a ghost I never got near him, he was playing a different game to me and had 9 young lads running around him. I thought I did well Mick told me afterwards that I did but really, the chap raped me and raped me good. Think he was rubbing it in

But it was the ability to control a ball and release it into space that i didnt see that marked him as special. This is an ex LOI player and he tore my reasonably decent team apart. it wasnt movement it was knowing where to put the ball that stood out for me. Different level tbh, have played 5 a side with a few current pats players and i just sit back and watch. the touch the technique they have, imagining what the truly gifted players like Ronaldo and Messi can do is scary.

Agus

Zidane playing indoors (action from about 1:20)

A Primal Nut

Interesting thread. I would say there are plenty of skillful players who are used to schoolyard football and don't adapt well to 11-a-side full pitch and tactics, etc. That is probably one of the big differences in the academies. Also many great players used to dominating games who don't adapt well when they are suddenly playing against players of a similar level. It must be a big change to learn to pass rather than run rings around everyone else. Then there is off-the-ball skills that not everyone has.

It always amazes me the difference in quality at the top level. You would think at the top 0.0000001% (approx) of the world there wouldn't be much difference in quality but even then Messi and Ronaldo are so far ahead of most players in the best or 2nd best league in the world. It's astonishing.

upandcumming

Nerdlingr wrote: »

Following on from that Van Persie video on the other page, i always get a laugh out of this, the skills on Owen...he's some w@nker!!!

God that keeper is crap... even for a 5-a-side.

simongurnick

Silentcorner wrote: »

The higher the level the quicker the pace, the quicker the pace the more time you get on the ball oddly enough, but the heavier the challenge if you don't release the ball quickly enough...

...but the ability of professional players is their ability off the ball, the work rate, concentration levels must be at peak, this is where peak fitness (the kind only a professional athelete has) kicks in, because the pace is higher, the movement off the ball is quicker, a talented footballer who isn't at that level of fitness (the level of fitness required for that particular level) will quickly fall behind (even if the game looks slow on tv for instance, player and ball movement are lightening fast), he will feel like his lungs are on fire, concentration will be the first to suffer, therefore looking like someone who can't control a ball or pass.

The professional players have been in "incubation" for 5/6 years before they make their professional debut (having seen off threats from dozens of other "talented footballers" in the academy)...the difference in physical condition between a fully pro squad v semi pro is massive, it is like a different sport, if you aren't training in a professional set up by your mid teens forget about playing professionally...it's over for you, you can still turn heads on a junior pitch but this is football, not rugby or GAA.

What are you talking about man? The difference between an intercounty GAA player and a club player is massive, the difference between a semi pro rugby player and a pro player is massive...just the same as football or any other sport for that matter.

Duffy the Vampire Slayer

simongurnick wrote: »

What are you talking about man? The difference between an intercounty GAA player and a club player is massive, the difference between a semi pro rugby player and a pro player is massive...just the same as football or any other sport for that matter.

Agreed when it comes to GAA, especially hurling. The difference between the top inter-county players and the average intermediate player is enormous. There's a big gap in Gaelic Football too, although I think it's a bit easier to disguise lack of skill with fitness and strength (Even though it's best to be both skilful and fit). In both sports though, almost every top level player has been playing throughout their childhood and played at under-age level for their county.

Don't know much about rugby but I'd imagine there's a huge gap between Leinster players and the average club players.

SantryRed

Nerdlingr wrote: »

Following on from that Van Persie video on the other page, i always get a laugh out of this, the skills on Owen...he's some w@nker!!!

That keeper is really, really **** though tbf.

Silentcorner

simongurnick wrote: »

What are you talking about man? The difference between an intercounty GAA player and a club player is massive, the difference between a semi pro rugby player and a pro player is massive...just the same as football or any other sport for that matter.

You probably misunderstood my point, I didn't suggest that there was no difference between intercounty hurlers and club players, I said that in football you need to be in a professional set up by your mid teens (there are exceptions of course, but very very few)...this is because of the sheer number of players...there are probably only a few thousand hurlers on this planet, there are only 6/7 counties worthy of "top level status", I have a lot of respect for top gaa players, but there are only 20-30 within those counties capable of penetrating the starting 15, who do not compete with top players from other counties...

Rugby also has a much shallower pool of players to choose from, not for a second would I attempt to belittle the standard at the highest level of the sport.

Football is played by hundreds of millions of people, Rugby is way behind in numbers, GAA (as skillful and exciting as it is)is somewhere between Curling and cheeserolling!!!

simongurnick

Silentcorner wrote: »

You probably misunderstood my point, I didn't suggest that there was no difference between intercounty hurlers and club players, I said that in football you need to be in a professional set up by your mid teens (there are exceptions of course, but very very few)...this is because of the sheer number of players...there are probably only a few thousand hurlers on this planet, there are only 6/7 counties worthy of "top level status", I have a lot of respect for top gaa players, but there are only 20-30 within those counties capable of penetrating the starting 15, who do not compete with top players from other counties...

Rugby also has a much shallower pool of players to choose from, not for a second would I attempt to belittle the standard at the highest level of the sport.

Football is played by hundreds of millions of people, Rugby is way behind in numbers, GAA (as skillful and exciting as it is)is somewhere between Curling and cheeserolling!!!

You'd get the head bet off ya in certain parts of Ireland for that comment!

Guy:Incognito

thebaz wrote: »

I stand to be corrected on this - but I heard , that when the great Paul McGrath played for Dalkey and Pats , he was good, but not standout great - he only went on to become the greatest player I ever saw wear the green jersey - so thers hope for most of us;)

My dad played against him a couple of times when he was with galty celtic and reckons he was head and shoulders above anyone he played with or against. My dad went on to play loi b for a few years so played against quite a lot of loi players on their way up, down and coming back from injuries.

COYVB

I think a more interesting question would be how good could someone with zero natural talent become with top class training... A lot of the things guys learn at proper clubs' academies is stuff you'd never, ever learn from Sunday league training, and despite the fact that you'd have less talent, you'd have the right things drilled into you constantly.

I'd like to see an experiment done where an awful footballer gets a season training with an academy to see how he stands afterwards.

An example would be gabby agbonlahor at villa. His youth coaches haven't been behind the door in saying he had no footballing talent whatsoever, but because of his pace they decided he could be taught what he needed to be effective

764dak

A Primal Nut wrote: »

Interesting thread. I would say there are plenty of skillful players who are used to schoolyard football and don't adapt well to 11-a-side full pitch and tactics, etc. That is probably one of the big differences in the academies. Also many great players used to dominating games who don't adapt well when they are suddenly playing against players of a similar level. It must be a big change to learn to pass rather than run rings around everyone else. Then there is off-the-ball skills that not everyone has.

It always amazes me the difference in quality at the top level. You would think at the top 0.0000001% (approx) of the world there wouldn't be much difference in quality but even then Messi and Ronaldo are so far ahead of most players in the best or 2nd best league in the world. It's astonishing.

How do you define far ahead?

Liam O

764dak wrote: »

How do you define far ahead?

I would say it probably has a lot todo with the way they score significantly higher the number of their peers consistently. Obviously you have the likes of Costa who now has 13 goals in the league this season but he is in a purple patch, Ronaldo and Messi have been in a purple patch for about 4 or 5 seasons now which is astounding, so much so that Messi "only" having 8 league goals this season is a surprise. They are probably the best goalscorers at the top level of all time and their proficiency makes even the likes of Suarez, Van Persie, Falcao, Cavani etc (ok mostly in different leagues but they do it in the CL too) look so inferior to them.

Probably that but I can't speak for him

atilladehun

The story of the guy who is the best player in the league but goes over to England but doesn't get a sniff and is back in a month really highlights the structural problems in Ireland.

When you study teaching you learn about scaffolding knowledge. Building up information piece by piece. Football should be the same. The top 100 - 150 kids in each age group should be meeting up regularly though out the year to play games that are more competitive for them. There's no point hammering four goals a game at the local level. The amount they can learn at that stage is too basic.

Silentcorner

simongurnick wrote: »

You'd get the head bet off ya in certain parts of Ireland for that comment!

Ya tis fairly controversial alright...and ironically the only thing that could help me out of that tight spot would be a hurley...but I'd invariably miss whatever I was aiming at!!

764dak

Liam O wrote: »

I would say it probably has a lot todo with the way they score significantly higher the number of their peers consistently. Obviously you have the likes of Costa who now has 13 goals in the league this season but he is in a purple patch, Ronaldo and Messi have been in a purple patch for about 4 or 5 seasons now which is astounding, so much so that Messi "only" having 8 league goals this season is a surprise. They are probably the best goalscorers at the top level of all time and their proficiency makes even the likes of Suarez, Van Persie, Falcao, Cavani etc (ok mostly in different leagues but they do it in the CL too) look so inferior to them.

Probably that but I can't speak for him

If you look at Champions League goal scoring those two aren't way ahead of other guys like Lewandowski, Gomez, Mueller, etc. Burak Yilmaz scored the same number of goals as Messi in the UCL last season and played less minutes. Olic had close records to Messi and Ronaldo in 2009-10 season just to show you another example.

The fact they score so many goals in La Liga either means La Liga is overrated or their teams overly rely on them or a combination of the two.

AdamD

764dak wrote: »

If you look at Champions League goal scoring those two aren't way ahead of other guys like Lewandowski, Gomez, Mueller, etc. Burak Yilmaz scored the same number of goals as Messi in the UCL last season and played less minutes. Olic had close records to Messi and Ronaldo in 2009-10 season just to show you another example.

The fact they score so many goals in La Liga either means La Liga is overrated or their teams overly rely on them or a combination of the two.

There are usually a couple close to them each season, but those players change each year, Messi and Ronaldo are up there every season.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_Cup_and_UEFA_Champions_League_top_scorers

nobody playing right now is even remotely close to them on this

bucketybuck

764dak wrote: »

Olic had close records to Messi and Ronaldo in 2009-10 season just to show you another example.

An example of what? Since 2009/10 Messi and Ronaldo have continued to score goals at a previously unheard off rate while Olic is nowhere to be found.