Just how good are professional footballers?

764dak

AdamD wrote: »

There are usually a couple close to them each season, but those players change each year, Messi and Ronaldo are up there every season.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_Cup_and_UEFA_Champions_League_top_scorers

nobody playing right now is even remotely close to them on this

Their teams are usually up there every season so you can't expect other guys to do that every season when their teams can't make it that far every year.

764dak

bucketybuck wrote: »

An example of what? Since 2009/10 Messi and Ronaldo have continued to score goals at a previously unheard off rate while Olic is nowhere to be found.

If you look at the number of goals by players in each Champions League season that rate isn't "previously unheard of". It's not like they are scoring 16-20 goals in the UCL.

van Nistelrooy and Messi have similar goals to games ratio in the UCL (0.77 to 0.79)!

Winston Payne

764dak wrote: »

Their teams are usually up there every season

Wonder why that is?

764dak

Winston Payne wrote: »

Wonder why that is?

Their teams are better (or more consistent). For example, van Nistelrooy only made it to one semifinals and he has a similar goals to games ratio as Messi. If your team can't make it to the semis consistently how can a forward challenge for the top scorer in UCL every year?

764dak

Many people here say the difference is mainly due to having a better first touch. Many professional players say that juggling is key to improving your first touch. If this is true why aren't freestyle jugglers better soccer players? Just yesterday I saw an episode of this programme called Futbol 360. In this episode, the scientists analyzed Bruno Marioni (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruno_Marioni) to this freestyle guy named Iacono. Iacono was way ahead of Marioni in juggling but Marioni was better at dribbling.

Liam O

764dak wrote: »

Their teams are better (or more consistent). For example, van Nistelrooy only made it to one semifinals and he has a similar goals to games ratio as Messi. If your team can't make it to the semis consistently how can a forward challenge for the top scorer in UCL every year?

You only have to watch them to see that they are miles ahead of even the world class players that they play with who merely serve to act as accommodators for the abilities of Messi and Ronaldo a lot of the time. Nobody comes close to them. Messi got 46 goals in just the league last season ffs!

764dak

Liam O wrote: »

You only have to watch them to see that they are miles ahead of even the world class players that they play with who merely serve to act as accommodators for the abilities of Messi and Ronaldo a lot of the time. Nobody comes close to them. Messi got 46 goals in just the league last season ffs!

Well, he also got 50 the season before and Ronaldo got 45 or 46 that season as well but they aren't way ahead of everyone in the Champions League like they are in La Liga. Meanwhile, the guys who are close to them aren't that way ahead of everybody in their leagues which means La Liga isn't that great.

bucketybuck

I can't wait till he gets to the part where Barcelona weren't really that good and Xavi was just a water carrier.

Winston Payne

764dak wrote: »

Their teams are better (or more consistent)

Let's try this again.


I WONDER WHY THAT IS???? \NUDGE NUDGE/

I wonder if the consistency of those teams reaching that level is BECAUSE of Messi and Ronaldo. MAYBE.

764dak

bucketybuck wrote: »

I can't wait till he gets to the part where Barcelona weren't really that good and Xavi was just a water carrier.

I already said Barcelona and Real Madrid are consistent teams in the Champions League. Xavi is an important of the Barcelona team.

acalmenvoy

Seeing Roy Keane and Clarence Seedorf pinging the ball to each other, really brought home to me the skill levels of these guys.
From 4.42 on.

NIMAN

764dak wrote: »

I already said Barcelona and Real Madrid are consistent teams in the Champions League. Xavi is an important of the Barcelona team.

Yeah, consistently disappointing at the final hurdle (well at least since 2002).

leposean

I grew up playing for in the SDFL. I remember one lad, a left winger for us, he was unreal. Scored plenty of goals, created loads, another lad centre mid came from Joes and he was easilly the best player in the league, only came to us cause his mates were with us.


These 2 helped us go from being relegated one season to 3 consecutive second place finishes and promotion above our premier team into the premier divison and league cup win.

Then we moved to the DDSL and I saw how poor these 2 lads were in comparrisson to pretty much every player in their position we played against.

Point is its all relative.

Example. Paul McShane is ****e (compared to Coleman, O'Shea, Kelly etc we have in the Ireland team. You have to look at a team like Hull though, they aren't exactly poor financially, yet their management team have said there is noone better that we can afford to buy thats a better option than Paul McShane, taking it as every team would have 2 first choice players in a team, he is one of the 40 best right backs playing in England.

Not bad considering he's ''****''.

Final point, again as a kid. Andy Keogh was on our team before we went to the DDSL, 12s, 13, 14 15. Out and out the best player I have ever played with by an absolute mile.

He would look like Messi if he played in the LOI.

Again its all relative

noodler

I am 28 now, play at the lower end of Dublin's UCFL leagues and the issue of perspective always gives me pause for thought.

I mean, I can say I see a fair few players even at my crappy level who genuinely impress me on a weekly basis..yet other fans whilst watching football are always quick to call a LOI player useless or say that Sammon is useless etc etc.

Its just strikes me as odd that amateurs can impress me so often and other professional (or LOI) players can be written off as useless by others despite being light years ahead compartively.

I guess it is the old adage of failing to recnognise how good someone is when their opponents are of equal or superior skill.

AdamD

noodler wrote: »

I am 28 now, play at the lower end of Dublin's UCFL leagues and the issue of perspective always gives me pause for thought.

I mean, I can say I see a fair few players even at my crappy level who genuinely impress me on a weekly basis..yet other fans whilst watching football are always quick to call a LOI player useless or say that Sammon is useless etc etc.

Its just strikes me as odd that amateurs can impress me so often and other professional (or LOI) players can be written off as useless by others despite being light years ahead compartively.

I guess it is the old adage of failing to recnognise how good someone is when their opponents are of equal or superior skill.

When people call them useless its a given that they're saying it in the context of an international fixture....

noodler

AdamD wrote: »

When people call them useless its a given that they're saying it in the context of an international fixture....

Still.

My point remains that the player you are berating is likely 100 times better than that guy on your local amateur team who you think is class.

764dak

noodler wrote: »

Still.

My point remains that the player you are berating is likely 100 times better than that guy on your local amateur team who you think is class.

lol Just a few minutes ago someone said this:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=87563809&postcount=11


Also, you can't say someone is "100 times better" as you can't judge ability on a ratio scale (unless it's a competitive race).

Corholio

leposean wrote: »

I grew up playing for in the SDFL. I remember one lad, a left winger for us, he was unreal. Scored plenty of goals, created loads, another lad centre mid came from Joes and he was easilly the best player in the league, only came to us cause his mates were with us.


These 2 helped us go from being relegated one season to 3 consecutive second place finishes and promotion above our premier team into the premier divison and league cup win.

Then we moved to the DDSL and I saw how poor these 2 lads were in comparrisson to pretty much every player in their position we played against.

Point is its all relative.

Example. Paul McShane is ****e (compared to Coleman, O'Shea, Kelly etc we have in the Ireland team. You have to look at a team like Hull though, they aren't exactly poor financially, yet their management team have said there is noone better that we can afford to buy thats a better option than Paul McShane, taking it as every team would have 2 first choice players in a team, he is one of the 40 best right backs playing in England.

Not bad considering he's ''****''.

Final point, again as a kid. Andy Keogh was on our team before we went to the DDSL, 12s, 13, 14 15. Out and out the best player I have ever played with by an absolute mile.

He would look like Messi if he played in the LOI.

Again its all relative

I doubt it.

Not saying he's ****, but he certainly wouldn't look incredible in LOI. Your either over or under estimating one way.

Iused2likebusts

764dak wrote: »

Many people here say the difference is mainly due to having a better first touch. Many professional players say that juggling is key to improving your first touch. If this is true why aren't freestyle jugglers better soccer players? Just yesterday I saw an episode of this programme called Futbol 360. In this episode, the scientists analyzed Bruno Marioni (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruno_Marioni) to this freestyle guy named Iacono. Iacono was way ahead of Marioni in juggling but Marioni was better at dribbling.

Id see little or no link between juggling/ freestyling and being a decent player. Yes it might help you with your first touch but will do nothing for passing, dribbling, shooting,pace, crossing, tackling, heading, fitness, positional sense, will to win and all the other attributes you need to be to be a good footballer.

fullstop

leposean wrote: »

Final point, again as a kid. Andy Keogh was on our team before we went to the DDSL, 12s, 13, 14 15. Out and out the best player I have ever played with by an absolute mile.

He would look like Messi if he played in the LOI.

Again its all relative

How do you know he would? Conor Sammon hardly ripped up the LOI and he's playing at a similar level to keogh. Then you can look at someone like Jay O'Shea who looked incredibly gifted in the LOI, but just wasn't able for it in England. Point is you can't really say how he'd do in LOI.

Ebbs

Lets not forget Kevin Doyle, Ward, Madden, McClean Sammon, etc all played LoI recently and none of which exactly tore it up. McClean had a good season, but certainly wasnt the best player in the league, all of the rest certainly didnt run rings around anyone.

smackbunnybaby

Ebbs wrote: »

Lets not forget Kevin Doyle, Ward, Madden, McClean Sammon, etc all played LoI recently and none of which exactly tore it up. McClean had a good season, but certainly wasnt the best player in the league, all of the rest certainly didnt run rings around anyone.

My recollection of Kevin Doyle was he had gotten to the stage when he was running rings around lads. It was time for him to move on and it was never a gamble he would make it in England.

In all the time I've watched football, I'd say one of the best players I have ever seen live in terms of all round package was Dion Dublin. Saw him towards the end of his career with Norwich, and my God, I took a complete double take. Here was a fella I had thought was a decent player, which he was, but seeing him at the age of 37 (?) where guile and and craft had taken over was magnificent!

Growing up, one of the best players in the Cork league (12s etc) was Damien Delaney, who played as a wing forward ala Ronaldo! Skining people. Glad he made it, surprisingly as a full back!

Is that common? Young lads spend their life playing forward and when they get snapped up by a big club, they get moved to a different position? I recall it happened to Ashley Cole?

rebelomar

Played on a pretty decent school boys team in Cork. A few of the lads got cross channel trials but none made the cut. These lads would been talented obviously but even as kids you knew attitude would hold them back.

A guy from the same age group who never really impressed me much playing against him has prob played in each division in England now.

What was very noticeable was when this guy came back as a teen to play a few seasons in LOI he looked a far far more impressive prospect.

Playing for a period time at a higher level, a player should always stand out when step down.

I would say the talent required to make it eliminates 90% of kids straight away. Attitude and desire combined with a bit of luck regulates the remaining 10% IMHO.

They are however the 1% who are so talented they make it regardless but again they usually get found out fairly quickly.

Mitch Connor

in comparison to the average joe, even the worst players you could think of would be streets above you.

I play an 11 aside game on a Sunday night.

There are lads who are unstoppable at times, who failed to make it in the Eircom league, another fella who was in the reserves at leeds for a while would make crap of us. Another guy was in the youth system at At. Madrid and Barcelona (years ago) and his ease on the ball and quickness of foot is incredible. Another guy (only played against him for 15 mins) was in a pro team in Portugal apparently at some stage and he seems to score whenever he feels like and his movement is out of this world.

Played against Paul McShane years and years ago, when he was a kid, and he was levels upon levels better than anyone else we knew.

I'm crap at football myself but the main group I play with are no mugs, but the lads with any kind of professional training or exposure are so much better than the rest of us in general it is funny.

noodler

764dak wrote: »

lol Just a few minutes ago someone said this:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=87563809&postcount=11


Also, you can't say someone is "100 times better" as you can't judge ability on a ratio scale (unless it's a competitive race).

Lol.

What a strange thing to get pedantic about.

Ok then, alot better.

quarryman

acalmenvoy wrote: »

Seeing Roy Keane and Clarence Seedorf pinging the ball to each other, really brought home to me the skill levels of these guys.
From 4.42 on.

Anyone have any videos of this kind of training ground stuff? I love seeing the pros knocking the ball around when the pressure is off.

veXual

quarryman wrote: »

Anyone have any videos of this kind of training ground stuff? I love seeing the pros knocking the ball around when the pressure is off.

The Man City Youtube channel sometimes has videos of training session kick arounds pretty interesting to watch.

Nerdlingr

smackbunnybaby wrote: »

Is that common? Young lads spend their life playing forward and when they get snapped up by a big club, they get moved to a different position? I recall it happened to Ashley Cole?

Carragher was the same. Growing up he was breaking all kinds of scoring records I think, used to play up front. Soon as he signed for Liverpool he "progressed" further and further back the field till they turned him into the new Beckenbauer!!

GavRedKing

veXual wrote: »

The Man City Youtube channel sometimes has videos of training session kick arounds pretty interesting to watch.

The one thign you get from the City training sessions when the players have cameras on there head, is how fast it is at the level, the bal is zipping around and youre getting closed down instantly.

If your touch and awareness isnt up to speed you're done for.

I am pie

Once played with a guy who was well into his 40s, we were in our 20s, he had played for Ajax reserves and under age sides, never made the first team.

It was literally useless trying to tackle him or intercept a pass his made. Constantly had time, space and awareness. It was slightly depressing but you had to appreciate it. He had been educated in how to play football whilst the rest of were savages who know little to nothing.

Also played with a Irish league (the NI league) player, had played for Ards and I think may have had a handful of games with Linfield. Again, he was retired, we were in our so called peak. He used to stroll about without really playing, just there for a bit of craic he used to say. Once someone annoyed him with a bad tackle and some nasty verbals, so he stuck away 10 odd goals unanswered and made sure the lads in question didn't touch the ball the rest of the game.

Simply put, anyone who has played and trained to a decent level makes your average sunday league hero look pedestrian.

aidan24326

Anyone remember that show Sky One did a few years ago where they basically took a bunch of celebs and pitted them against a team of former greats (John Barnes, Peter Beardsley and the like) ?

Now most of these celeb guys could play a bit, a couple of them had actually played semi-pro so were decent players by ordinary standards. But one day they took them to Newcastle United's training ground for a training session, and they had a training game against a bunch of the Newcastle frirst team squad, and the Newcastle players absolutely ran rings around them, to the extent that it was comical to watch.

Now as I said some of them were actually decent players by your average standards but the Newcastle guys made a total mockery of them.

professore

Played 5-a-side (the kind with walls) a few times with an overweight but reasonably fit Spanish guy in his 40's who was once in Real Madrid youths before giving it up to become a cardiac surgeon ... (some people eh?)

Anyway, he NEVER went backwards with the ball. Always went round people, or through them, the ball seemed to stick to him. Once I got him in a corner and thought to myself - "I have you now you f@@ker ....". He had his back to me with the ball at his feet. Somehow he stood on the ball, it spun up, landed on his shoulder, he then flicked it with his shoulder, ran around me, caught it on his chest, and kept going. NEVER saw anything like it in my life. He also played a few games with a Munster senior league team, and scored a couple of goals on every outing. So the gulf in class is BIG.

parc

fullstop wrote: »

How do you know he would? Conor Sammon hardly ripped up the LOI and he's playing at a similar level to keogh. Then you can look at someone like Jay O'Shea who looked incredibly gifted in the LOI, but just wasn't able for it in England. Point is you can't really say how he'd do in LOI.

lol wut?

edit; sorry I thought you meant John O'Shea

parc

Great thread. I was just thinking of a guy I went to school with the other day. He was next level. I was pretty good and there were lads that were great footballers. A few lads who are now county GAA players, really fit and would also play "soccer". They were great too.

But not one could touch this guy. He was phenomenal - close control, elegant on the ball, rocket left foot. You couldn't get the ball off him and he'd have it off you in a second if you lost concentration or held onto it too long. Used to score hatricks and free kicks for the school team regularly.

Now I don't think he's even playing high up in Ireland at all. Just the other day I was thinking how good do you really have to be to make it to the premiership.

Remember someone said earlier in this thread about playing against John O'Shea and you couldn't touch him. Now think about the time when O'Shea was asked who was the hardest player he played against and he said "Zidane, you just couldn't get the ball off him." (That's on youtube somewhere).

Imagine what it would be like to play against Zidane.

A Primal Nut

764dak wrote: »

If you look at Champions League goal scoring those two aren't way ahead of other guys like Lewandowski, Gomez, Mueller, etc. Burak Yilmaz scored the same number of goals as Messi in the UCL last season and played less minutes. Olic had close records to Messi and Ronaldo in 2009-10 season just to show you another example.

The fact they score so many goals in La Liga either means La Liga is overrated or their teams overly rely on them or a combination of the two.

What I said in the original post is that Messi and Ronaldo are way ahead of most players in the best or second best league in the world. You saying that you think La Liga is overrated backs up the point I was making. They may be overrated but it's definitely one of the best leagues in the world either way. And Messi and Ronaldo are way ahead of most players in it (not every player in it!!).

jonnyfingers

parc wrote: »

Remember someone said earlier in this thread about playing against John O'Shea and you couldn't touch him. Now think about the time when O'Shea was asked who was the hardest player he played against and he said "Zidane, you just couldn't get the ball off him." (That's on youtube somewhere).

Imagine what it would be like to play against Zidane.

Might have been me. Went to school with JOS and we used to have a massive game of football out that back of the school at lunchtime. We're talking 20-30 a-side! JOS couldn't play as he had signed a contract for United and couldn't risk getting injured. But he'd join in for a short amount of time every so often. So he'd get the ball and 10 players would try to get it off him but he'd just dance around them and pass the ball off no problem. Then when he got bored he'd play keepy-upy or rocket in a shot from 30 or 40 yards.

parc

jonnyfingers wrote: »

Might have been me. Went to school with JOS and we used to have a massive game of football out that back of the school at lunchtime. We're talking 20-30 a-side! JOS couldn't play as he had signed a contract for United and couldn't risk getting injured. But he'd join in for a short amount of time every so often. So he'd get the ball and 10 players would try to get it off him but he'd just dance around them and pass the ball off no problem. Then when he got bored he'd play keepy-upy or rocket in a shot from 30 or 40 yards.

Haha that's mental. Love stories like that

Too Tough To Die

quarryman wrote: »

Anyone have any videos of this kind of training ground stuff? I love seeing the pros knocking the ball around when the pressure is off.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJ0z-iWj4q4

LOSTfan57

Nicklas Bendtner is a professional footballer............just let that sink in for a while

bucketybuck

LOSTfan57 wrote: »

Nicklas Bendtner is a professional footballer............just let that sink in for a while

You couldn't even keep up with Nicklas Bendtner on a brisk walk never mind on a football field.

Morzadec

Nicklas Bendtner would probably start for Ireland, poor example.

LOSTfan57

Not place for humour okey dokey i'm off



ps no Ireland aren't THAT bad wow

Nerdlingr

I see your Messi and Alves and I raise you Danny Rose!!! :

bad2dabone

LOSTfan57 wrote: »

Nicklas Bendtner is a professional footballer............just let that sink in for a while

Bendtner scored twice vs Italy last month. He's lazy compared to other top level pro players but he's still got a level of talent and ability that is far above your average Joe.

LOSTfan57

bad2dabone wrote: »

Bendtner scored twice vs Italy last month. He's lazy compared to other top level pro players but he's still got a level of talent and ability that is far above your average Joe.

Hes also a great Liverpool defender among many other things

Kerrydude1981

Too Tough To Die wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJ0z-iWj4q4

Mr Keane and Mr Seedorf are fairly handy at the pressure is off kick around,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=0PMwX4hRHuo#t=242

Too Tough To Die

Kerrydude1981 wrote: »

Mr Keane and Mr Seedorf are fairly handy at the pressure is off kick around,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=0PMwX4hRHuo#t=242

Dude, the post i quoted had that very video in it!

Kerrydude1981

Too Tough To Die wrote: »

Dude, the post i quoted had that very video in it!

Didnt read the last page,post FAIL