Dell Nightmare

GarIT

I have a 15 month old Dell laptop Which has been repaired twice by Dell, once in August 2011 and once in March 2012. Both times it was the same issue. The issue has reoccured a third time and Dell are insisting they want to try to repair it again. Is there anything I can do or do I just have to let them. I don't want another repair which will only last about 3 or 4 months. I thought I could demand a refund or replacement at this stage but I got a call from Dell's legal team and they have said that they can repair it or they will go to court. What do I do?

Procrastastudy

Go to court.

15 months is the worrying aspect of this though. How long was the warranty what is the issue?

GarIT

GCDLawstudent wrote: »

Go to court.

15 months is the worrying aspect of this though. How long was the warranty what is the issue?

The warranty was a year, the graphics card is faulty, the graphics card is built into the motherboard so the whole insides of the laptop need to be replaced (again).

Procrastastudy

GarIT wrote: »

The warranty was a year, the graphics card is faulty, the graphics card is built into the motherboard so the whole insides of the laptop need to be replaced (again).

If its genuinely the same fault - eg not different problems with the same thing - you might have win in the SmCC but I really don't know after 15 months if they only give a 12 month warranty.

As we all know warranty limits are simply what the manufacturer deems reasonable - not perhaps - what the court will. I'd personaly look for some written assurance that if it goes wrong again witrhin 12 months from repair they will repair it again.

Hopefully someone else will give you a more definative answer.

Jarren

Repair
If you request a repair of a faulty product instead of rejecting it, it should be a permanent repair. If the same fault occurs again, then you should be entitled to a replacement or refund. If you are not happy with the retailer’s offer to repair the item, you can reject it. But if you do this, you may have to use the Small Claims process if you want to take the matter further.

http://www.nca.ie/nca/faulty-goods

GarIT

I have photographic evidence that shows its the same problem, I also have proof I emailed them three weeks ago (to the email they game me last time) about the problem I'm having now and it was ignored. Dell have confimed it is the same problem as well as the laptop giving the same error code.

You name says law student so you probably know better than me but I thought that "repairs must be perminent" made the "must last for a reasonable amount of time" irrelevant if it's the same problem.

I actually just checked my records and the first time I contacted them about this problem was 2 months and three weeks after the second time they fixed it.

Procrastastudy

GarIT wrote: »

I have photographic evidence that shows its the same problem, I also have proof I emailed them three weeks ago (to the email they game me last time) about the problem I'm having now and it was ignored. Dell have confimed it is the same problem as well as the laptop giving the same error code.

You name says law student so you probably know better than me but I thought that "repairs must be perminent" made the "must last for a reasonable amount of time" irrelevant if it's the same problem.

I actually just checked my records and the first time I contacted them about this problem was 2 months and three weeks after the second time they fixed it.

I am a law student and I can tell you that everything is relative

Its probably the biggest strength and at the same time the biggest weakness of the common law system. Permanant doesn't mean forever it just means to last the life of the product. Note thats my interpretation but some Judge somewhere may have made a different decision - we'd have to have a conversation about court reporting and to continue this massive tangent however

15 months on a laptop imo is getting to the point where I wouldn't stake any money on go to the SmCC. That said the SmCC is only €25 and they can't take your house so rock on... they might not be in the mood to be co-operative in your repair if you do so however.

gerryk

GCDLawstudent wrote: »

15 months is the worrying aspect of this though. How long was the warranty what is the issue?

Warranty or not, a laptop should be expected to give trouble-free service for longer than 15 months.

the_syco

GarIT wrote: »

I have photographic evidence that shows its the same problem

How do you know that the problem both times was the "graphics card"?

foggy_lad

GCDLawstudent wrote: »

If its genuinely the same fault - eg not different problems with the same thing - you might have win in the SmCC but I really don't know after 15 months if they only give a 12 month warranty.

As we all know warranty limits are simply what the manufacturer deems reasonable - not perhaps - what the court will. I'd personaly look for some written assurance that if it goes wrong again witrhin 12 months from repair they will repair it again.

Hopefully someone else will give you a more definative answer.

A laptop should last a reasonable amount of time! Across the EU the minimum period for electronic goods is 2 years but in Ireland the period is what is considered reasonable considering several factors including the price paid and how the product is used etc.

Disregard anything Dell tell you about their warranty as they don't have regard for your statutory rights, Your STATUTORY RIGHTS superceed any warranty offered by dell whether free or paid for.

You are at this point entitled to reject the laptop (because their attempt to repair it has failed) and look for a replacement or a refund but this must be sought from the shop/retailer if you did not buy directly from Dell.

Generally people seem to have good luck with such cases in the small claims court with most companies either not responding at all or just caving in once they get the notice from the court that you have filed a claim. Do you think Dell are going to pay a solicitor to travel to your local courthouse and try to tell a Judge that they are being more than reasonable when in fact they are driving a coach n four through your statutory rights?

OP I also doubt the call you got was from any legal professional more likely just another customer care person who is tasked with trying to get customers to accept endless repairs untill the reasonable time in which they can seek a refund or replacement has been exhausted.

GarIT

the_syco wrote: »

ow do you know that the problem both times was the "graphics card"?

The screen goes black and then comes back on with the colours messed up and a message comes up saying the graphics card failed but has recovered but it never right until after its restarted. Other times I get a blue screen saying Graphics card failure recovery timedout.

Procrastastudy

gerryk wrote: »

Warranty or not, a laptop should be expected to give trouble-free service for longer than 15 months.

Agreed but it all ways comes down to how much money you are willing to put on it. As it stands they have given him the options of it being fixed outside of warranty or take your chances in court.

In the ideal world of course he'd win... in fact it would never need to go that far. One sec while I check... no I've just looked out the window and it's still the real world sadly.

kippy

So basicilly the motherboard has been replaced twice already (since the graphics chip is integrated onto the board) and the same issue has occured again after a few months?
That's very strange.
I would question a few things.
1. When you use the laptop do you generally use it on a solid hard surface, making sure the air vents are free and accessible or
2. do you us it on a soft flexible surface such as a bed, cushion?

If they have actually replaced the motherboard twice already I would suggest that the issue is not with the board at all and possibly down to some other component or indeed piece of software, OR some aspect of how you are using the machine is causing the issue to reoccur after a few months (Overheading of the laptop specificilly)

To me, it looks like the root cause of the fault has not been diagnosed correctly and this is the main issue.

Procrastastudy

foggy_lad wrote: »

A laptop should last a reasonable amount of time! Across the EU the minimum period for electronic goods is 2 years but in Ireland the period is what is considered reasonable considering several factors including the price paid and how the product is used etc.

I'm afraid you have misunderstood that. There was a European directive ensuring all member states allowed claims for upto 2 years. As Ireland allows claimes for upto six years it does not apply here. People on this forum frequently confuse statute of limitations with warranty periods.

There was a case in the UK against a printer manufacturer where the court found that a five year old printer should be replaced even though it had a 1 year warranty because of the number of times it had been used. As have said everything is relative.

foggy_lad wrote: »

Disregard anything Dell tell you about their warranty as they don't have regard for your statutory rights, Your STATUTORY RIGHTS superceed any warranty offered by dell whether free or paid for.

You are at this point entitled to reject the laptop (because their attempt to repair it has failed) and look for a replacement or a refund but this must be sought from the shop/retailer if you did not buy directly from Dell.

Absolute advise like this is never a good idea. Dell have simply said we are willing to do X if you want Y we have to go to the correct forum - a court - to decide. Yes they are playing hardball a bit. Are they bluffing? Who knows maybe they are maybe they are not. Maybe you're a better poker player than me Foggy.

foggy_lad wrote: »

Generally people seem to have good luck with such cases in the small claims court with most companies either not responding at all or just caving in once they get the notice from the court that you have filed a claim. Do you think Dell are going to pay a solicitor to travel to your local courthouse and try to tell a Judge that they are being more than reasonable when in fact they are driving a coach n four through your statutory rights?

OP I also doubt the call you got was from any legal professional more likely just another customer care person who is tasked with trying to get customers to accept endless repairs untill the reasonable time in which they can seek a refund or replacement has been exhausted.

While I agree - a lot of companies don't even bother responding to the SmCC be careful with a company like Dell. If its the SmCC they will simply need to respond in writing. It probably will never see a Solicitor or even a reasonably paid in house counsel which I'm sure they have at least one of on staff. Also Law degrees are not any guarantee of wealth - infact the exact oppisite - most people with law degrees end up in fairly mundane jobs such as the escalations departments of retailers and mail order companies. Even if the person you spoke to doesn't have legal training the guidelines they are following could very well be written by someone who really knows their stuff.

Don't confuse this for saying don't do it. I'm just suggesting you weigh your options carefully.

GarIT

kippy wrote: »

So basicilly the motherboard has been replaced twice already (since the graphics chip is integrated onto the board) and the same issue has occured again after a few months?
That's very strange.
I would question a few things.
1. When you use the laptop do you generally use it on a solid hard surface, making sure the air vents are free and accessible or
2. do you us it on a soft flexible surface such as a bed, cushion?

If they have actually replaced the motherboard twice already I would suggest that the issue is not with the board at all and possibly down to some other component or indeed piece of software, OR some aspect of how you are using the machine is causing the issue to reoccur after a few months (Overheading of the laptop specificilly)

To me, it looks like the root cause of the fault has not been diagnosed correctly and this is the main issue.

The motherbaord was replaced once, the first time they did a repair they just re installed everything. For the purposes of the SSC I would consider that an attempted reapir. I only use it on my desk, I fix laptops so I know all that. I've read that in this particular laptop the fan isnt as powerful as it should be and the GPU overheats no matter what you do.

kippy

GarIT wrote: »

I've read that in this particular laptop the fan isnt as powerful as it should be and the GPU overheats no matter what you do.

So in theory, even if the laptop was replaced with the same model, wouldn't you end up with the same problems?

It is rather strange that the first repair (reinstalling everything) actually resolved the issue for a number of months - particularly if the issue was with the physical graphics chip............indeed it is rather strange that replacing the board resolved the issue for a few months the second time.


I am not saying you are in the wrong here, the opposite in fact, it's very poor troubleshooting and fault finding from a Dell point of view - indeed if there is a known issue with the machine and this effects every machine of that type, then surely Dell have a case to answer, not just to you but to all owners of the same machine.
I'm not sure exactly what your best course of action is. I would probably take the repair as I dont think the SCC will be able to sort this issue out for you.

GarIT

The complaints depratment rang me, I said I thought the legal department was supposed to ring me and he said "we also are the legal department" so it does seem a bit dodgy.

This is where it gets complicated. They say because it was purchased from their business department that statutory rights don't apply. What happened was a friend bought the laptop for me using his business(just with dell) account because I couldnt buy from their business range. 21% VAT was paid on it and it was never used in any company, it wasn't even the companys financial accounts that it went through, just their online account with dell. Whaere do I stand now?

i71jskz5xu42pb

GCDLawstudent wrote: »

you might have win in the SmCC but I really don't know after 15 months if they only give a 12 month warranty

As foggy_lad and a few others have pointed out Dell's warranty has nothing to do with a buyer's statutory rights. I get that you're trying to be helpful but offering an opinion on stuff you're obviously not sure of (and is easily verified) does more harm than good.

Meesared

Out of interest is the GPU Nvidia?

GarIT

Meesared wrote: »

Out of interest is the GPU Nvidia?

It is. Its switchable though. If I turn the laptop on power saver it only uses Intel graphics but that's pointless.

Meesared

What model of Nvidia?

GarIT

kippy wrote: »

So in theory, even if the laptop was replaced with the same model, wouldn't you end up with the same problems?

It is rather strange that the first repair (reinstalling everything) actually resolved the issue for a number of months - particularly if the issue was with the physical graphics chip............

It didn't actually fix it the first time. It just might only happen once a week or something. I've noticed with both motherboards it becomes more frequent as time goes on. What happened was after the re install I had school then exams and I didn't get around untill getting it sorted just before the warranty ran out. Its not a major issue but its a pain to loose everything you are doing and having to start again.

GarIT

Meesared wrote: »

What model of Nvidia?

330m gt I think

Meesared

Ah ok I was just going to mention about the G84 and 86 chip issue, but yours wouldn't be included in that.

Procrastastudy

Malcolm Numerous Banister wrote: »

As foggy_lad and a few others have pointed out Dell's warranty has nothing to do with a buyer's statutory rights. I get that you're trying to be helpful but offering an opinion on stuff you're obviously not sure of (and is easily verified) does more harm than good.

Perhaps you should actually read the entire post before you try and be helpful - quoting out of context - doing more harm than good. Citizens Advice is all well and good but a court decides what is reasonable not you or I or the manfacturer. As these cases go unreported on the whole, your assertion that 15 month is reasonable is just as valid as mine that it may not be.

I've never given an absolute as some of you guys seem to be doing - which is dangerous advise even if you do know exactly what you are talking about which clearly no one as yet does. As I'm clearly derailing this is the last post I will make and leave the OP with this.

Becareful - you may very well win in SmCC - I hope you do. If you don't then you are going to end up footing the repair bill yourself plus €25 for the claim. The consensus here is people think it should last longer than 15 months. I personally have my doubts. Please note this opinion is based your statutory rights. Just becuase you bought it through their business operation doesn't mean that the majority of rights won't still apply - even if some of the consumer related stuff does become moot.

One thing I will say I'm not 100% on is if they can establish its a Business to Business Sale you won't be able to use the SmCC procedure - I'm very doubtful thats the case but something you may need to look into.

Thoie

GarIT wrote: »

This is where it gets complicated. They say because it was purchased from their business department that statutory rights don't apply. What happened was a friend bought the laptop for me using his business(just with dell) account because I couldnt buy from their business range. 21% VAT was paid on it and it was never used in any company, it wasn't even the companys financial accounts that it went through, just their online account with dell. Whaere do I stand now?

Unfortunately as it was sold and bought through a business account, you're not eligible to apply through the Small Claims Court (even though the machine never went to a company). The terms and conditions on their site are different for consumers and companies, and your statutory rights are different as you bought it as a company.

The only possible way you could be a "consumer" in this situation is if you bought it from your friend's company, but in that case it would be them you'd be taking to SCC, not Dell, and your friend's company would be supposed to repair/replace/refund.

the_syco

GarIT wrote: »

The screen goes black and then comes back on with the colours messed up and a message comes up saying the graphics card failed but has recovered but it never right until after its restarted.

I'd say the fault is heat related. If you google the laptop, you may find if others have had the same problem.

GarIT wrote: »

I've read that in this particular laptop the fan isnt as powerful as it should be and the GPU overheats no matter what you do.

Sounds about right.

GarIT wrote: »

a friend bought the laptop for me using his business(just with dell) account because I couldnt buy from their business range.

Shakey ground. Don't know if Dell even have to deal with you, as you didn't buy the laptop, and as a business bout it, you won't be able to claim through the SCC.

Thoie wrote: »

The only possible way you could be a "consumer" in this situation is if you bought it from your friend's company, but in that case it would be them you'd be taking to SCC, not Dell, and your friend's company would be supposed to repair/replace/refund.

This. You should get legal advice, as you could get your friend into trouble.

Thoie

Thoie wrote: »

The only possible way you could be a "consumer" in this situation is if you bought it from your friend's company, but in that case it would be them you'd be taking to SCC, not Dell, and your friend's company would be supposed to repair/replace/refund.

the_syco wrote: »

This. You should get legal advice, as you could get your friend into trouble.

Sorry, in case it wasn't clear, I wasn't recommending this, particularly if you want to keep your friend. It's something you'd need to discuss very honestly with him and getting his input before even considering that. If I was the friend and had done you a favour to get you a machine you wanted, I'd crucify you if you then pulled that stunt.

GarIT

It actually wasn't a friend, it was a boardsie I know through the Comp & Tech forum. His company didn't really buy it. I paid for it but Dell don't sell business model laptops to normal consumers so we stuck his business' name on it. I have the original reciepts and everything but I decided to just go for the repair as its simpler at this stage and it should last untill the student grant comes in.

I don't think anything was done wrong. I know we lied to Dell but I don't think that has any legal implications. He never had any receipts or anything so he couldn't have claimed anything back or anything like that.

Thoie

GarIT wrote: »

It actually wasn't a friend, it was a boardsie I know through the Comp & Tech forum. His company didn't really buy it. I paid for it but Dell don't sell business model laptops to normal consumers so we stuck his business' name on it. I have the original reciepts and everything but I decided to just go for the repair as its simpler at this stage and it should last untill the student grant comes in.

I don't think anything was done wrong. I know we lied to Dell but I don't think that has any legal implications. He never had any receipts or anything so he couldn't have claimed anything back or anything like that.

Dell's not going to hunt you down or anything, but as it was bought from their business side, you don't have "consumer rights" - it's considered a business to business transaction. As such, options like the small claims court are closed to you. <-- Turns out that's wrong - see next post.

slimjimmc

Thoie wrote: »

Dell's not going to hunt you down or anything, but as it was bought from their business side, you don't have "consumer rights" - it's considered a business to business transaction. As such, options like the small claims court are closed to you.

Actually the SCC has been dealing with business disputes since 2009, so that avenue could be very much available.