JC Vs Continuous assessment

AtomicKoala

Personally I think the idea of a mid Secondary School state exam is a good idea, although it could use some freshening up. On the other hand perhaps a system of continuous assessment could encourage really and genuine learning as opposed to just outright swotting and cramming.
I guess ideally we could somehow combine both systems, it'll be interesting to see what Quinn does.

Bazinga_N

AtomicKoala wrote: »

Personally I think the idea of a mid Secondary School state exam is a good idea, although it could use some freshening up. On the other hand perhaps a system of continuous assessment could encourage really and genuine learning as opposed to just outright swotting and cramming.
I guess ideally we could somehow combine both systems, it'll be interesting to see what Quinn does.

Personally I think the system we have works in certain aspects. Imo, what should be done is add new systems of assessment such as that in ESS, project work and what-not.

spurious

Every subject should have a project, practical or CA element.
Strangely (not), this is what was initially intended for the JC, but was never implemented.

Bazinga_N

spurious wrote: »

Every subject should have a project, practical or CA element.
Strangely (not), this is what was initially intended for the JC, but was never implemented.

That's what I was trying to get at, there's so many opportunities in different subjects it's all a shame really.

spurious

It cost money to do properly, which meant it got knocked on the head. A terrible pity. There is a large number of people who don't cope well with the 'all on one day' nature of our exam system.

In the real world, organisational skills, research skills, presentation, deadline keeping, working as part of a team, these are dome of the skills needed in the workplace and further ed. but nowhere outside the Applied Leaving Cert. can a student who excels at these gain marks.

There are so many ways we can assess what students have learned, it's a shame we are locked into such an old fashioned and restrictive system.

dalta5billion

If they do a continuous assessment system, will it be a teacher's word or JC-security style exams, but in the form of class/short tests?

I certainly would not bank on the honesty of a certain teacher I know of for such a system.

spurious

I know my union (TUI) would not be involved unless it was done properly, with external monitoring to overcome any difficulties with dishonesty. Something like how things work at the moment with Art and the other subjects with project work.

Personally, I would love to see interviews following a project like they have in the LCA, they sort out who actually participated and who didn't and give people who might not be great at written reports a chance to shine. Interview skills are also a great thing to have for life, or heading into TY, Leaving or college.

There are so many assessment possibilities.

paddzdaman

Just finished my junior cert there. Just wondering what do they plan with subjects such as english,maths,business. Is there anyway of seeing what is planned to be done just out of curiosity?

spurious

This is probably closest to what you want.
http://www.ncca.ie/en/Curriculum_and_Assessment/Post-Primary_Education/Junior_Cycle/

It's very up in the air at the moment.

IrishLoriii

Im going to be honest and say that I like the idea of continious assesment.
I worked my butt off for the last 3 years, i studyed, did all my home work, never mitched etc etc and yet the people that done nothing all year then studyed for 2 weeks before it iwill get good grades and theyll be delighted and il be sitting there cursing my self :P Continous assesment is fairer

Bazinga_N

I just hate the idea of continuous assessment. I mean a lot of stuff happens throughout three years. Surely you can't expect students to be able to perform on every test for an entire three years? Fair enough it has it's advantages but I for one prefer the idea of one big assessment, or maybe three big assessments at the end of each year, instead of the Summer Exams.

I still love the idea of different assessment methods. Projects and what not. It would give students who can't perform well at written assessments a chance to excel in other ways.

After looking at the link spurious provided, I love the idea of different workshops and classes. I always felt like there is just so much room for new subjects that would be so beneficial to students. ICT, Drama, Environmental Science, A PE subject, etc. Also, I think a Life Skills subjects would be brilliant. Something that teaches students various skills that one may never learn. Like cooking (if someone never did home-ec), home repairs, personal finance, study skills, interview skills, etc.
Here's the link to the short courses I was talking about http://ncca.ie/framework/doc/JUNIOR_CYCLE_CURRIC.pdf

Troxck

Personally, I'd hate it. I didn't start performing well in a lot of my subjects until after the mocks. It's not that I didn't care about the subjects or school it's just that a lot of things didn't click until March/April. If there was continual assessment then my results probably wouldn't be that good. Then again, this is just my opinion and how I think it may not be the best.

Kmgirl

I don't agree with the new junior cert system of continual assessment coming in in the next few years. In this new system, teacher's will correct their own student's tests which may lead to biased marking. In my school, I know one particular teacher was giving a student all C's and D's in English and then she got a B in the Pre exam and did one of the best in the class!!...I know another student who was getting all A's off the same teacher and that student got a C in the Pre Exam!
Also, I have heard the Art Teacher in my school is meant to be a biased marker. Some students will be receiving false grades..some students should get higher, some should get lower.
Continual Assessment would be grand if the tests/exams were corrected by teacher's that didn't know who you were.

wnolan1992

Switching to continuous assessment for the JC makes no sense without doing the same for the LC at the same time.

The main function of the JC is to teach you how to cope with the pressures of state exams. If you were to take away that aspect from it, then you'd have people heading into sixth year freaking out even worse than they do now. So keeping the exam structure we have now makes more sense than taking a sledge hammer to the system, especially where there are far greater problems than the exam system to sort out (curriculum problems that have been put on the long finger for almost the past 30 years at this stage)

I would like to see JC subjects have more project work though, History in particular, but it's not the only one that badly needs a project element.

Oral assessment for languages should also be brought to JC level. It's baffling as to why this has yet to be done to be honest.


That's just my two cents though, might be slightly clouded by the "I had to do it, so these little feckers aren't getting away without doing it" mentality :pac:

Troxck

wnolan1992 wrote: »

Switching to continuous assessment for the JC makes no sense without doing the same for the LC at the same time.

The main function of the JC is to teach you how to cope with the pressures of state exams. If you were to take away that aspect from it, then you'd have people heading into sixth year freaking out even worse than they do now. So keeping the exam structure we have now makes more sense than taking a sledge hammer to the system, especially where there are far greater problems than the exam system to sort out (curriculum problems that have been put on the long finger for almost the past 30 years at this stage)

I would like to see JC subjects have more project work though, History in particular, but it's not the only one that badly needs a project element.

Oral assessment for languages should also be brought to JC level. It's baffling as to why this has yet to be done to be honest.


That's just my two cents though, might be slightly clouded by the "I had to do it, so these little feckers aren't getting away without doing it" mentality :pac:

I agree with the languages requiring an oral. Isn't the point of a language being able to speak it? It's all well and good to tell your pen pal from Paris about your new school or family news but the only time I would use French would be in France speaking it, not writing a letter. Then again, must my opinion but I would of liked to have an oral for my Frenh and German exams.

dalta5billion

Junior Cert orals are optional in Irish, French and German etc.

I know some schools require you to do the Irish oral (even non-gaelscoil). Would have loved to have done it, but we weren't told about it at all.

wnolan1992

dalta5billion wrote: »

Junior Cert orals are optional in Irish, French and German etc.

I know some schools require you to do the Irish oral (even non-gaelscoil). Would have loved to have done it, but we weren't told about it at all.

Really? I didn't even know they were an option! But really it's just further evidence that we teach languages arse-ways in this country. Orals should be mandatory for all languages at both JC and LC, and should make up the bulk of the final grade. Being able to listen to and write a language is fairly useless if you can't actually converse in it imo.

Troxck

dalta5billion wrote: »

Junior Cert orals are optional in Irish, French and German etc.

I know some schools require you to do the Irish oral (even non-gaelscoil). Would have loved to have done it, but we weren't told about it at all.

I knew they were optional but I still think they should be mandatory like at LC level. Just because we don't know much of the language doesn't mean we can't have a conversation about, school, family or past-times because we learnt them for letter writing.

vamos!

Troxck wrote: »

I knew they were optional but I still think they should be mandatory like at LC level. Just because we don't know much of the language doesn't mean we can't have a conversation about, school, family or past-times because we learnt them for letter writing.

As far as I am aware mot schools do not offer the JC orals due to time constraints and unions do not support teachers assessing their own students work as part of the State Exams.

dalta5billion

vamos! wrote: »

Troxck wrote: »

I knew they were optional but I still think they should be mandatory like at LC level. Just because we don't know much of the language doesn't mean we can't have a conversation about, school, family or past-times because we learnt them for letter writing.

As far as I am aware mot schools do not offer the JC orals due to time constraints and unions do not support teachers assessing their own students work as part of the State Exams.

Really? I thought an external examiner was used for the JC orals. I'd be shocked if otherwise.

spurious

I did an oral French exam in my 'Inter.' in 1978 and a Geography project for Geography in the same exam. There has always been an option to do a project in History and Geography, but schools don't take it up - probably because it's 'not in the book'.

Teachers already correct their own students work in some subjects. It's isn't a problem as long as the marks are monitored (or double-checked) by an outsider. I monitor project marking in June. I have rarely seen project work that was not marked fairly. Most issues are with teachers new to marking who mark too strictly for JC Level.

If the SEC try to bring in continuous assessment on a cheapo scale,without outside checks to make sure it's fair, I can't see the teacher unions co-operating. You have to remember the big changes in class sizes, the drops in pay, the lack of promotion, the huge drop in new teacher starting pay and the waste of time that is the Croke Park hours. Teachers are in no mood to be doing work for free.

spurious

vamos! wrote: »

As far as I am aware mot schools do not offer the JC orals due to time constraints and unions do not support teachers assessing their own students work as part of the State Exams.

Teachers rarely do their own oral exams. The problem comes when schools have to release a language teacher for two weeks to cover the orals. Schools don't want to do it.

The TUI policy on teachers assessing their own students' work is that it is OK as long as the teachers have an exam conference to explain what they are to do, they are paid for doing the work (even if only a couple of euro per candidate) and that the marking is externally monitored. It already happens in some subjects, without any problems.

Bazinga_N

Me and a few of my friends in our Irish class are going begging our Irish teacher to try and get us to do an Oral next year. Our class is brilliant at speaking Irish and would tend to lack more so in other areas. Does anybody know if it can be arranged for just one class in our school rather than all 5 Irish classes in our year?

spurious

I asked a colleague for you and he said the whole year would not need to be taking the oral option, but that he himself would feel more comfortable making the decision earlier than the end of second year as there is a lot of preparation.

Chicken and Cheese

I think we should introduce the American system of exams. It's not all down to one day, and the system is already there so we wouldn't need to make up a system of assessment.

Bazinga_N

spurious wrote: »

I asked a colleague for you and he said the whole year would not need to be taking the oral option, but that he himself would feel more comfortable making the decision earlier than the end of second year as there is a lot of preparation.

Thanks a million spurious Our teacher might allow us to avail to the oral so. I understand what he means regarding only one year of preparation though.

vamos!

spurious wrote: »

Teachers rarely do their own oral exams. The problem comes when schools have to release a language teacher for two weeks to cover the orals. Schools don't want to do it.

The TUI policy on teachers assessing their own students' work is that it is OK as long as the teachers have an exam conference to explain what they are to do, they are paid for doing the work (even if only a couple of euro per candidate) and that the marking is externally monitored. It already happens in some subjects, without any problems.

It is different at JC. I have asked as a teacher to allow my class do the exams on the provision that I examined them in my own time (free to examine in Feb and March) but was advised that the union did not allow it. As far as I know there is no extra payment and I am certain that the entire class does not have to do it. I can't link to the SEC site but here is some information from the site:
Examining of candidates is generally conducted on a class basis by the class teacher
however there is some flexibility with this - a teacher other than the class teacher or a
teacher from outside the school may be engaged to conduct the examination.

I have heard of private schools paying an extern to conduct the exams. I don't know if there is any kind of marking conference though.