Sinn Fein misuse expenses

Laminations

Sinn Fein is facing the possibility of having to repay more than €500,000 to the Exchequer after it was exposed last week as having paid activists out of cash claimed for travel expenses

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/sinn-feins-cheap-little-power-game-with-queen-3147562.html

Brain Hayes lays into SF for their PR stunt which is a reactive step to gain votes

This lauded SF act of basic civility comes at a time when they have been found to be taking excess expenses and travel monies and misusing it for party aims.

So let's no let their abuse slip under the radar

SINN FÉIN TD Pearse Doherty has admitted to spending unused funds from his travel expenses in order to hire additional staff – but said he would pay back the money if doing so was in violation of Oireachtas rules

http://www.thejournal.ie/i-use-it-to-take-someone-off-the-dole-doherty-on-hiring-extra-staff-using-unused-expenses-493651-Jun2012/

Significantly, both Mr Doherty and Mr Mac-Lochlainn signed certificates last year to declare that they had only used the expenses to pay for travel and accommodation.

http://www.thejournal.ie/oireachtas-seeks-clarification-over-pearse-dohertys-use-of-e8k-expenses-500244-Jun2012/

jonniebgood1

The main point I would take from this story is the hypocracy of the SF members involved. Being highest in terms of moral outrage at other TD's dodgy expenses is an admirable thing and they specialise in this. However at the same time as this and their boasts about working mans wages, etc they seem to be fiddling the system to pay costs for their own means. I heard Doherty on the radio bumbling though an excuse for this and his credibility on national issues went out the window when I heard his excuses. This hypocracy is outrageous and they have simply slotted into our corrupt political system. We need a new party that is for real change rather than just talking about it. If they say they are only going to draw down the average working wage then surely they should follow through with that and the same goes for honesty on drawing expenses.

gaffer91

If FF or FG had done the same there would be outrage and rightly so. Let's hope that SF get condemned from all quarters for this act of theft against the Irish people. (Not the first time, eh?)

Seth Brundle

Clare Daly suggested that she does the same with the SP when on Bonnie Browne last night

Sierra Oscar

kbannon wrote: »

Clare Daly suggested that she does the same with the SP when on Bonnie Browne last night

Indeed, she said the same on Today FM yesterday also.

Oi only take de average wage ye know.


Oh well, she wouldn't be saying it if certain people didn't buy it.

Sponge Bob

As far as I know the 'Technical Group' somehow draw a "Leaders Allowance" . How is that divvied up??

Happyman42

That's quite an extraordinary article, the last paragraph being truly, truly incredible. Is it any wonder the political knowledge of the electorate is so bad when this rag sells so many copies of it's sensationalist guttersnipe hackery.
To tack that on to that article and what it has to do with that article, is just...........I'm speechless!.:eek:



On the issue of expenses, we might do well to consider the only bit of that which is actually substaniated, and not inferred or 'understood to be'.:rolleyes:

'To date the Standards in Public Offices Commission (Sipo) has accepted the bona-fides of Sinn Fein's claim that this policy does not constitute an actual donation to Sinn Fein.'

Prehaps you should wait until the Oireachtas passes judgement on the severity of the rule break before jumping on your well worn bandwagons?

jonniebgood1

Happyman42 wrote: »

Prehaps you should wait until the Oireachtas passes judgement on the severity of the rule break before jumping on your well worn bandwagons?

Like Sinn Fein would do?

Laminations

Happyman42 wrote: »

Prehaps you should wait until the Oireachtas passes judgement on the severity of the rule break before jumping on your well worn bandwagons?

So what you are saying is that at best this is morally wrong but technically not breaking any rules? Where have we heard that before?

Or do you think it is morally correct to take travel expenses payments and redirect them to non-travel related self-serving ends and then sign a certificate to declare that you had only used the expenses to pay for travel and accommodation?

Prominent frontbenchers have revealed that part of their expenses claims were diverted to pay additional staff.
Unspent travel expenses are supposed to be returned to the Oireachtas under rules introduced in 2010.

Here is the original Indo article

Mr Doherty only spent €24,000 of the €33,000 that he received for travel and accommodation expenses last year.
He paid back €845.05 to the Oireachtas Commission, but that still left a surplus of around €8,000, which he put towards the wages of two extra Sinn Fein workers -- both part-time -- in his constituency

Laminations

Happyman42 wrote: »

On the issue of expenses, we might do well to consider the only bit of that which is actually substaniated, and not inferred or 'understood to be'.:rolleyes:

Thats rubbish - two frontbenchers have admitted diverting expenses in this way - that is substantiated. It is not a donation to SF in the same way they get around using their wages to employ extra drones in a way that avoids them having to declare the monies as donations.

- Each TD only takes the annual industrial wage after tax -- around €29,000 -- from their €92,000-a-year salary.
The balance, which works out at around €18,000 after tax and pension levies, is used to pay for additional constituency staff.
- Over €250,000 was legally diverted in this way last year alone.
- The cash is given directly to staff, rather than the party, to get around donation limits.


What they do with their wages is a separate issue to what they do with the expenses they are given for specific purposes and for which they sign certificates saying they are being used for these purposes.

Happyman42

Laminations wrote: »

So what you are saying is that at best this is morally wrong but technically not breaking any rules? Where have we heard that before?

I never said anything of the kind. If it is wrong then I expect him to be sanctioned for it. When it is 'proven' and 'adjudged' by the competent authority. Not by some hack, who is, with his hack editor, patently out to smear the party in ANY way possible. The last little paragraph of bile, proving the point.

Laminations

Happyman42 wrote: »

If it is wrong

??

I'm giving you the facts as confirmed by Doherty himself.

Mr Doherty only spent €24,000 of the €33,000 that he received for travel and accommodation expenses last year.
He paid back €845.05 to the Oireachtas Commission, but that still left a surplus of around €8,000, which he put towards the wages of two extra Sinn Fein workers -- both part-time -- in his constituency

"I personally do not keep all of the wages and expenses paid to me," he said on his website. "You will also see that the remainder of the funds in the account after my wage and my real expenses are deducted is spent on part-time staff wages."

Now, you have enough information to judge yourself whether that use of travel expenses is right or wrong. I'm not asking you if it breaks rules (which I imagine it does), I'm asking if, morally, that behaviour with tax payers money is right

Laminations

Laminations wrote: »

I'm not asking you if it breaks rules (which I imagine it does)

The Oireachtas Commission confirmed that the redirecting of travel expenses to pay staff wages was not permitted under rules introduced in 2010. TDs are supposed to return any unspent expenses.
However, it remains unclear what penalties Oireachtas officials can impose for breaches of the rules. It is understood that legal advice will be sought about what action can be taken in the event of a complaint.

source

Happyman42

Laminations wrote: »

??

I'm giving you the facts as confirmed by Doherty himself.

Mr Doherty only spent €24,000 of the €33,000 that he received for travel and accommodation expenses last year.
He paid back €845.05 to the Oireachtas Commission, but that still left a surplus of around €8,000, which he put towards the wages of two extra Sinn Fein workers -- both part-time -- in his constituency



Now, you have enough information to judge yourself whether that use of travel expenses is right or wrong. I'm not asking you if it breaks rules (which I imagine it does), I'm asking if, morally, that behaviour with tax payers money is right

I will await the judgement of the relevant committee. I see nobody hiding anything here. He could have falsified his expenses to cover this, he didn't so maybe it is a misunderstanding of the rules, I don't know. I will await the full inquiry and report, if that is alright with you?
Mis-use of public money is wrong, if that helps.

Laminations

Happyman42 wrote: »

I will await the judgement of the relevant committee.

Funny how that sounds just like the people who defended Bertie, unwilling to demonstrate an independent moral compass.

I see nobody hiding anything here. He could have falsified his expenses to cover this, he didn't so maybe it is a misunderstanding of the rules, I don't know. I will await the full inquiry and report, if that is alright with you?

Doherty is not a dullard, how one of the better examples of a SF TD can mistake 'travel and accommodation' expenses for 'employ a crony' expenses is incredulous, but I'm sure the SF spin machine will go with that line of 'honest mistake'

Mis-use of public money is wrong, if that helps.

Now you're getting there. In what world can travel and accommodation expenses used to employ personal staff not be considered mis-use? The correct use is quite clearly in the name.

Happyman42

Laminations wrote: »

Funny how that sounds just like the people who defended Bertie, unwilling to demonstrate an independent moral compass.

What exactly is it you want, hanging without trial?

You are right, Doherty is no dullard...so why would he do this so blatantly? I need more info before I pass judgement.

Laminations

So mis-using public monies is wrong. We've gotten you that far.
Using travel expenses to employ staff can only be described as misuse - you are free to argue how it could be considered correct use - maybe if Pearse was using the employee like a horse on which he travelled to work you could define his wage as a travel expense? So failing any silly redefinitions....
Mr Doherty misused expenses in this way

Mr Doherty was wrong to do this.

It's this last line that SFers need to get to

Laminations

Happyman42 wrote: »

What exactly is it you want, hanging without trial?

You are right, Doherty is no dullard...so why would he do this so blatantly? I need more info before I pass judgement.

Since when is someone expressing their opinion about anothers actions (given the facts) and condemning that person equivalent to hanging?

What other facts do you require?

gaffer91

@Happyman am I correct in saying that despite the fact Doherty has accepted himself that he immorally diverted funds, you don't want to condemn him?

Happyman42

gaffer91 wrote: »

@Happyman am I correct in saying that despite the fact Doherty has accepted himself that he immorally diverted funds, you don't want to condemn him?

Far as I can see, this is what he said.

SINN FÉIN TD Pearse Doherty has admitted to spending unused funds from his travel expenses in order to hire additional staff – but said he would pay back the money if doing so was in violation of Oireachtas rules.

We await the judgement of the Oireachtas committee who to date, have only said the following.

'To date the Standards in Public Offices Commission (Sipo) has accepted the bona-fides of Sinn Fein's claim that this policy does not constitute an actual donation to Sinn Fein.'

If he broke the rules, deliberately or accidently, I expect him to be sanctioned or penalised for it.

jonniebgood1

Happyman42 wrote: »

If he broke the rules, deliberately or accidently, I expect him to be sanctioned or penalised for it.

In the same way as other Oireachtais members are penalised?

Wake up and smell the coffee! Just look at the Ivor Callely farce.

Happyman42

jonniebgood1 wrote: »

In the same way as other Oireachtais members are penalised?

Wake up and smell the coffee! Just look at the Ivor Callely farce.

Well correct me if I'm wrong, but Callely hid his trangressions, I don't think Doherty was hiding his or denied it when questioned by reporters. And he has said he will take whatever judgement is arrived at. It was info, freely available on his website or in his published account, was it not?
To be fair, I think there is a significant difference in Bertie and Ivors Trangressions (great name for a cartoon series! )
Doesn't make it right though.

Laminations

Happyman42 wrote: »

Far as I can see, this is what he said.

We await the judgement of the Oireachtas committee who to date, have only said the following.

If he broke the rules, deliberately or accidently, I expect him to be sanctioned or penalised for it.

Well that's patently untrue to anyone who has even read the last page of this thread. Firstly I don't think SIPO are the Oireachtas commission Doherty is referring to. Secondly, the Oireachtas commission has been reported as confirmining its against rules.

'The Oireachtas Commission confirmed that the redirecting of travel expenses to pay staff wages was not permitted under rules introduced in 2010. TDs are supposed to return any unspent expenses'

What's not known is the consequences/penalties i.e. will he have to pay it back, will his salary be withheld etc

Laminations

Happyman42 wrote: »

Well correct me if I'm wrong, but Callely hid his trangressions, I don't think Doherty was hiding his or denied it when questioned by reporters. And he has said he will take whatever judgement is arrived at. It was info, freely available on his website or in his published account, was it not?
To be fair, I think there is a significant difference in Bertie and Ivors Trangressions (great name for a cartoon series! )
Doesn't make it right though.

More akin to Mick Wallace so. Open, honest and cooperative. Absolves you of your transgressions

Happyman42

Laminations wrote: »

Well that's patently untrue to anyone who has even read the last page of this thread. Firstly I don't think SIPO are the Oireachtas commission Doherty is referring to. Secondly, the Oireachtas commission has been reported as confirmining its against rules.

'The Oireachtas Commission confirmed that the redirecting of travel expenses to pay staff wages was not permitted under rules introduced in 2010. TDs are supposed to return any unspent expenses'

What's not known is the consequences/penalties i.e. will he have to pay it back, will his salary be withheld etc

If that is the case and the judgement he has already said he will do what is asked of him.

Laminations

Happyman42 wrote: »

If that is the case and the judgement he has already said he will do what is asked of him.

And you think simply paying back misused public funds is an appropriate penalty?

Happyman42

Laminations wrote: »

More akin to Mick Wallace so. Open, honest and cooperative. Absolves you of your transgressions

Where have I mentioned anything about absolving anybody? Having your cake there Laminations?:rolleyes:

Laminations

Happyman42 wrote: »

Where have I mentioned anything about absolving anybody? Having your cake there Laminations?:rolleyes:

Two posts above you seem to think its a non-issue once he pays it back.

You still haven't said he was wrong and that practice is wrong. You've danced around condemning him with no reference to the additional facts you need to actually make a judgement. The judgement of the commission is not a extra fact in what Doherty and SF have done, it's simply someone else's appraisal of the facts.

Happyman42

Laminations wrote: »

You still haven't said he was wrong and that practice is wrong.

You sure about that? Dear me, I've heard of blind rage, but that bates Bannagher! :rolleyes:

Laminations

Happyman42 wrote: »

You sure about that? Dear me, I've heard of blind rage, but that bates Bannagher! :rolleyes:

Quote me the post of you saying Doherty was wrong and that using expenses to hire staff is wrong. The best you could do is 'mis-use of public funds is wrong' while not acknowledging that this is a case of misuse

So quote it or set the record straight - condemn Doherty by name for his misuse of funds

Happyman42

Happyman42 wrote: »

I will await the judgement of the relevant committee. I see nobody hiding anything here. He could have falsified his expenses to cover this, he didn't so maybe it is a misunderstanding of the rules, I don't know. I will await the full inquiry and report, if that is alright with you?
Mis-use of public money is wrong, if that helps.

Happyman42 wrote: »

Well correct me if I'm wrong, but Callely hid his trangressions, I don't think Doherty was hiding his or denied it when questioned by reporters. And he has said he will take whatever judgement is arrived at. It was info, freely available on his website or in his published account, was it not?
To be fair, I think there is a significant difference in Bertie and Ivors Trangressions (great name for a cartoon series! )
Doesn't make it right though.

If he broke the rules, deliberately or accidently, I expect him to be sanctioned or penalised for it.

^^^^^^

Laminations

Happyman42 wrote: »

^^^^^^

All dancing around an actual statement of condemnation.

I have quoted the reporting of the Oireactas Commission confirming it is against rules. I have corrected you in your assertion that this is being debated and clarified it is the consequences that are under discussion. You still can't bring yourself to type

Doherty was wrong to misuse taxpayers money in this way.

'if he broke the rules, you expect' is not condemnation.its muddying the waters around whether he broke the rules - which he did- and then stating expected consequences while avoiding giving you opinion of his actions.

southsiderosie

MOD NOTE:

Folks, can you please dial down the badgering and sniping? Thanks.

Happyman42

Laminations wrote: »

All dancing around an actual statement of condemnation.

I have quoted the reporting of the Oireactas Commission confirming it is against rules. I have corrected you in your assertion that this is being debated and clarified it is the consequences that are under discussion. You still can't bring yourself to type

Doherty was wrong to misuse taxpayers money in this way.

'if he broke the rules, you expect' is not condemnation.its muddying the waters around whether he broke the rules - which he did- and then stating expected consequences while avoiding giving you opinion of his actions.

:D

I have no intention of condemming anybody until I see the results of the relevant inquiry.
I have a problem here though, why would he do this and not attempt to hide it. It is highly possible this was a mistake or an oversight. If it isn't then it is dammed stupid.
He was wrong to do it, and should face whatever sanctions are decided upon. But as I said, the severity of the sentence should be based on the intention. Like in any humane court.

Laminations

Happyman42 wrote: »

:D
it is dammed stupid.
He was wrong to do it, and should face whatever sanctions are decided upon.

Well we agree on this.

_Kaiser_

Laminations wrote: »

Mr Doherty only spent €24,000 of the €33,000 that he received for travel and accommodation expenses last year.
He paid back €845.05 to the Oireachtas Commission, but that still left a surplus of around €8,000, which he put towards the wages of two extra Sinn Fein workers -- both part-time -- in his constituency

Or... to put a different slant on it (and I have no loyalty to any party):

He put the money towards directly employing 2 people, rather than hiring in unpaid slaves interns like others have done (I recall a thread about a TD doing this and expecting the "lucky winner" to provide their own laptop too!), or pocketing it for himself as so many of his colleagues and predecessors would have done, or returning it to the slush fund that will undoubtedly be squandered elsewhere.

Not so bad when you consider it that way really...

Happyman42

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

Or... to put a different slant on it (and I have no loyalty to any party):

He put the money towards directly employing 2 people, rather than hiring in unpaid slaves interns like others have done (I recall a thread about a TD doing this and expecting the "lucky winner" to provide their own laptop too!), or pocketing it for himself as so many of his colleagues and predecessors would have done, or returning it to the slush fund that will undoubtedly be squandered elsewhere.

Not so bad when you consider it that way really...

Which is probably why this story has had very little traction, either here or in the meeja. A guttersnipe hack infested midden of a newspaper allowed FG to throw everything but the kitchen sink at the party because of it.:rolleyes: But that extracts no criticism from the 'democrats' who just use it as grist for their own mills. :D

murphaph

Happyman42 wrote: »

He was wrong to do it, and should face whatever sanctions are decided upon. But as I said, the severity of the sentence should be based on the intention. Like in any humane court.

The intention was to steal taxpayers money to fund the SF party machine. That much is quite clear. SF stealing this money is no better than Ivor & Co. in the "big parties" fiddling their expenses. It's ALL taxpayers' money being stolen when it could be used to treat some cancer patient on a waiting list*

*Cliched, but the point stands!

Happyman42

'Steal' is too strong a word at this stage, in fairness.
I really can't see, in the current climate, why they would have done this. If the intention was, as you say, to steal, why wouldn't they have covered their tracks?
That's why I consel waiting until there is an inquiry into exactly what happened and a judgement on this specific case.

murphaph

Happyman42 wrote: »

'Steal' is too strong a word at this stage, in fairness.
I really can't see, in the current climate, why they would have done this. If the intention was, as you say, to steal, why wouldn't they have covered their tracks?
That's why I consel waiting until there is an inquiry into exactly what happened and a judgement on this specific case.

They judge each other in the Dail, so you might be waiting a long time for real condemnation.

They are blatant because they have learned the ropes quickly: the public are largely apathetic and let politicians away with this sort of theft from our back pockets.

How many constituents of the affected TDs are going to bother even putting pen to paper to question why their elected representatives see fit to take money from the public purse and spend it on their own parties (be it SF or any other)?

Hardly any, so the politicians know it's "worth a punt" and SF are just as bad as the rest of them as they have shown on a couple of occasions now.

Happyman42

murphaph wrote: »

They judge each other in the Dail, so you might be waiting a long time for real condemnation.

They are blatant because they have learned the ropes quickly: the public are largely apathetic and let politicians away with this sort of theft from our back pockets.

How many constituents of the affected TDs are going to bother even putting pen to paper to question why their elected representatives see fit to take money from the public purse and spend it on their own parties (be it SF or any other)?

Hardly any, so the politicians know it's "worth a punt" and SF are just as bad as the rest of them as they have shown on a couple of occasions now.

Wouldn't disagree with a word of that. I just think there may be an explanation that lessens the 'crime' here.
I'll be the first to hang a TD on the fiddle tbh.

poeticseraphim

Happyman42 wrote: »

Far as I can see, this is what he said.




We await the judgement of the Oireachtas committee who to date, have only said the following.



If he broke the rules, deliberately or accidently, I expect him to be sanctioned or penalised for it.

In any other country he would be expected to stand down and tossed out...as should Mick Wallace ...as should have Bertie and i am sick od the lax attitude in this country towards law.

It spreads from political life to all aspects of Irish life...in banking in busines etc....and it is at least a significant part of the reason we are where we are

If they cannot operate their accounts within the rules as a party how could they run an economy???

Do we want to be Greece switching money around??


Seriously this needs public condemnation.

We need more honesty and transparency in politics and accountability.

Respect for the rules and the law is the basis of a GOVT....it is necessary for politicans to respect due process and regulation..or change them in an open participatory way..


It is an unacceptable standard of behavouir and it needs to be stamped out...in SF and all Irish political parties

But we are taling of SF here

The danger is that all parties are reluctant to challange the entire political scene in this matter because they wish to take advantage of it themselves..or they have something to hide

They collude in not making too big a deal of it..

Sf have though..and have been shown to be hypocrites ....where is their socialist rhetoric now???

They want our taxes to fund their activists....and they promoe some sentiments that make some voters uncomfortable....
we know why

Respect for the law and due process is necessary in politics if we are to be a developed modern society and not some basket case.

dlofnep

Pearse was completely cleared of any wrong-doing.

http://www.thejournal.ie/pearse-doherty-expenses-no-breach-leinster-house-travel-503075-Jun2012/

In fact, it turned out that not only did Pearse not abuse his expense allowance, he only drew down half of the expenses he was entitled to.

Now - Who wants to be the first person to apologise? Let's see how quick people are to post.

Happyman42

I'm glad I didn't rush to condemm, I knew there was something odd about the whole story.

thecommietommy

dlofnep wrote: »

Pearse was completely cleared of any wrong-doing.

http://www.thejournal.ie/pearse-doherty-expenses-no-breach-leinster-house-travel-503075-Jun2012/

In fact, it turned out that not only did Pearse not abuse his expense allowance, he only drew down half of the expenses he was entitled to.

Now - Who wants to be the first person to apologise? Let's see how quick people are to post.

" LEINSTER HOUSE OFFICIALS have confirmed that Sinn Féin finance spokesman Pearse Doherty is not in breach of any rules regarding the use of his parliamentary allowances "

Interesting. Not a fan of SF but where was Dr Sir O'Reilly's comics when 'donations' in brown paper bags and cheques in envelopes were the order of the day for his best friends in FF not so long ago. I think it's becoming water off a duck's back all the phoney accusations against SF and the ULA. We all know what happened one day to the boy who cried wolf .......

Happyman42

thecommietommy wrote: »

" LEINSTER HOUSE OFFICIALS have confirmed that Sinn Féin finance spokesman Pearse Doherty is not in breach of any rules regarding the use of his parliamentary allowances "

Interesting. Not a fan of SF but where was Dr Sir O'Reilly's comics when 'donations' in brown paper bags and cheques in envelopes were the order of the day for his best friends in FF not so long ago. I think it's becoming water off a duck's back all the phoney accusations against SF and the ULA. We all know what happened one day to the boy who cried wolf .......

That article is an extraordinary example of Press and Establishment attempted assasination.

thecommietommy

Maybe this is a question for a legal forum but anyway, could Doherty sue Dr Sir O'Reilly's comic the Indo for claiming his misuse of expenses ?

thecommietommy

Laminations wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/sinn-feins-cheap-little-power-game-with-queen-3147562.html

Brain Hayes lays into SF for their PR stunt which is a reactive step to gain votes

This lauded SF act of basic civility comes at a time when they have been found to be taking excess expenses and travel monies and misusing it for party aims.

So let's no let their abuse slip under the radar



http://www.thejournal.ie/i-use-it-to-take-someone-off-the-dole-doherty-on-hiring-extra-staff-using-unused-expenses-493651-Jun2012/



http://www.thejournal.ie/oireachtas-seeks-clarification-over-pearse-dohertys-use-of-e8k-expenses-500244-Jun2012/

Tell me Laminations, do you ever wonder why the Indo doesn't scruntise FG's expenses as it does SF and the ULA ?

As you say yourself " So let's no let their abuse slip under the radar "

poeticseraphim

All politicians should be scrutinized..but these are the ones we are talking about now...by all means encorage equal scrutiny. We are all for it!

Now back to the current issue. Believe it or not SF are not getting special treatment.

I would love more scrutiny in Irish politics!

But this thread should get back on track!

jonniebgood1

thecommietommy wrote: »

[/URL]
Tell me Laminations, do you ever wonder why the Indo doesn't scruntise FG's expenses as it does SF and the ULA ?

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/mileage-controversy-councillor-set-to-be-mayor-after-fg-pact-3134112.html <<<Media conspiracy suspicions solved I think Oireachtas rules should be next?

As a point of rederence Did the lad who used all the ink toners break any Oireachtas rules?