Portugal vs Spain

Kirby

Suryavarman wrote: »

Yes but Drogba isn't Chelsea's best penalty taker. Lampard is and he went 3rd.

Drogba went 5th for the same reason ronaldo did. Ego. They wanted to be the hero. Drogba got lucky in that he got his chance and ronaldo didn't. Risk you take.

I do think Alves was unlucky not to score as it was a very good peno.

cgpg5

DDC1990 wrote: »

Nope scored both times vs England IIRC.

You're right I stand corrected. Don't know why I thought that! He scored the winner in 06 anyway

DDC1990

shrewdness wrote: »

Seriously, what's with the demanding the way their penalties should be taken? Maybe they have a different strategy of leaving their best penalty taker later? It didn't work tonight but other times it does. Teams don't have to line up with their best penalty takers from 1-5, they can take them in any order they want!

Well seeing as it backfired, im pretty sure people have a right to question the tactic.

Renn

cgpg5 wrote: »

You're right I stand corrected. Don't know why I thought that! He scored the winner in 06 anyway

Yeah but he should have taken the first one then. Viana and Petit might not have missed if that happened.

SirDelboy18

cgpg5 wrote: »

Good footballer but poor defensively. Remember Theo Walcott ran rings around him earlier in year that's saying something.

No he isn't poor defensively! As I've said he was probably the best defender in Spain this year. You clearly haven't paid any attention to him last season.

I remember the match and Walcott certainly didn't run rings around him, and it was a friendly - they are meaningless.

Orando Broom

Kirby wrote: »

Drogba went 5th for the same reason ronaldo did. Ego. They wanted to be the hero. Drogba got lucky in that he got his chance and ronaldo didn't. Risk you take.

I do think Alves was unlucky not to score as it was a very good peno.

Ego is a great trait in that situation. Look at Ramos and Pirlo, none of those the actions of meek mild men.

Predalien

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

5th penalty is statistically the most likely to be missed, so the player with most bottle should be taking it.

It's also the most likely to never even be taken so that's rubbish.

Turtwig

Loved this game! It was so tight. My game of the tournament so far.

Portugal were excellently organised, nullified Spain very effectively. Felt sorry for them but you have to admire Spain even when they don't reach top gear they still pull themselves through : They win. I'm fancying them to do the unprecedented treble now. Personally I think they stand a better chance of beating Germany than they do Italy.

Also, is anyone else sick of pundits thinking defenders can't shoot?

Renn

Predalien wrote: »

It's also the most likely to never even be taken so that's rubbish.

I think what's rubbish is the last ten pages of this thread + the RTE Panel.

Orando Broom

Predalien wrote: »

It's also the most likely to never even be taken so that's rubbish.

That is where the coach should come in and arrange his players in the order he sees will achieve the right result. Sure it's part lottery, part chess.

ArmaniJeanss

Jimmy Iovine wrote: »

What statistics are you basing this on?

Hold my hands up here. Just looked up some actual stats and I'm wrong about the 5th being the most likely to be missed.
http://www.onlinegamblingbible.com/betting-on-penalty-shootouts/

Nuri Sahin

adamski8

Joyce Country wrote: »

he still bottled it tonight

i never thought i see someone that just didnt get the chance to take a peno described as bottling it!
its absolutley absurd!
if he wasnt in the 1-5 peno takers or had actually missed it then you have a case.
the last player to miss is always the one remembered and the pressure gets bigger as the shootout continues.
yes there defo is a case that you have a greater chance of more glory like that fabergas player but to say someone bottled it is just crazy

SirDelboy18

Gerrard waited in Istanbul till 5th.

shrewdness

DDC1990 wrote: »

Well seeing as it backfired, im pretty sure people have a right to question the tactic.

I know, but what I'm saying is both tactics will win and lose different times, it's a game of chance. I was surprised myself that Ronaldo didn't take one a bit earlier but some were giving out that he should always be first, which I don't agree with.

Lumbo

closeline wrote: »

If Ronaldo had scored and Portugal lost he would still have been criticised.

He should have taken that chance in the last minute of normal time.


















:pac:

cgpg5

SirDelboy18 wrote: »

No he isn't poor defensively! As I've said he was probably the best defender in Spain this year. You clearly haven't paid any attention to him last season.

I remember the match and Walcott certainly didn't run rings around him, and it was a friendly - they are meaningless.

Lets be honest he doesn't have much defending to do when playing for Real. Or with Spain. However when Italy and Croatia (and the Portuguese tonight) attacked at pace, the Spanish defence looked lost. They thrive on defending high up the pitch. Ramos puts in decent tackles at times but gets skinned way too much (iirc Walcott drew numerous fouls from him that day). Ronaldo got inside him very easy at one stage tonight (when he dived looking for the pen) and that is a worry. Ramos is decent in the air though I'll give him that. I think he's a better right back if I'm honest cos he's a good attacking player.

Anyway, we'll just agree to disagree here cos no doubt you'll have different views on defending.

Kirby

SirDelboy18 wrote: »

Gerrard waited in Istanbul till 5th.

Exactly, it's ego. Just like Drogba and Ronnie, Gerrard has a hero complex too. Every team has one. Some teams have many.

adamski8

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

Hold my hands up here. Just looked up some actual stats and I'm wrong about the 5th being the most likely to be missed.
http://www.onlinegamblingbible.com/betting-on-penalty-shootouts/

yes but that doesnt tell the whole story though. one could argues the % scored decreases as the shootout goes further, maybe due to added pressure???
but the 5th is the second highest to the first! could this be because the better peno takers take the 1st and 5th penos?

ArmaniJeanss

Under a different set of circumstances Ronaldo would be getting pilloried to high heaven for taking the first one 'when the pressure isnt intense Bill' and leaving poor old Alves to take the 5th one.

I'm no fan of his, but some of the criticism seems to be of the 'find anything at all to throw at him' variety.

sReq | uTeK

Wanted Portugal to go through, but Spain
Look a different team when they use a striker fear enough pedro isn't one but he gave them a dimension they didn't have by pushing
Portugal back it enabled the midfield to finally be able to get a grip on the game, before pedro, xavi was practically getting the ball in the centre half position.

With
Portugal afraid of pedros pace it pushed them well back and iniesta was able to pick them apart in et

adamski8

Kirby wrote: »

Exactly, it's ego. Just like Drogba and Ronnie, Gerrard has a hero complex too. Every team has one. Some teams have many.

hero complex? what are you talking about? they are all 'bottlers' is what we've learned tonight:rolleyes:

klose

Portugals defence was great, alves is some hatchet man! Say he'd be a great junior b hurler. The lack of a cf killed Portugal in the tournament really, was hoping they might sneek it but Spain deserved it.
Tonorows game will be a cracker!

Mont

Ronaldo goes missing in big-game shocker :eek:

kryogen

sReq | uTeK wrote: »

Wanted Portugal to go through, but Spain
Look a different team when they use a striker fear enough pedro isn't one but he gave them a dimension they didn't have by pushing
Portugal back it enabled the midfield to finally be able to get a grip on the game, before pedro, xavi was practically getting the ball in the centre half position.

With
Portugal afraid of pedros pace it pushed them well back and iniesta was able to pick them apart in et

Spain started the game with a striker you know

cgpg5

whippedcream wrote: »

Portugals defence was great, alves is some hatchet man! Say he'd be a great junior b hurler. The lack of a cf killed Portugal in the tournament really, was hoping they might sneek it but Spain deserved it.
Tonorows game will be a cracker!

Pepe is definitely junior c!

adamski8

adamski8 wrote: »

yes but that doesnt tell the whole story though. one could argues the % scored decreases as the shootout goes further, maybe due to added pressure???
but the 5th is the second highest to the first! could this be because the better peno takers take the 1st and 5th penos?

just another thing which might skew the 5th penalty stats is a game like tonights where only 1 team takes a 5th peno and then its to win the game

supersean1999

Kirby wrote: »

So it surprises you that the best footballer in the world is mentioned during a game of football.....where half the spanish players on the pitch play with him at club level....and his main rival for the mantle is also playing.

You must be easily surprised so.

your a bit slow lad, he was comparing there greatness for no apparent reason,

Tox56

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

Under a different set of circumstances Ronaldo would be getting pilloried to high heaven for taking the first one 'when the pressure isnt intense Bill' and leaving poor old Alves to take the 5th one.

I'm no fan of his, but some of the criticism seems to be of the 'find anything at all to throw at him' variety.

I don't care for him either way, and I'm not one of these people who will 'find anything to throw at him', but he was by far and away the best penalty taker in the team, as well as their captain. Yet he didn't even take one because of a huge unnecessary gamble.

He's not a "bottler", but it was a ridiculous decision.

Anybody who would criticise him for going first are people with a predetermined agenda, but that's their problem.

SirDelboy18

Tox56 wrote: »

I don't care for him either way, and I'm not one of these people who will 'find anything to throw at him', but he was by far and away the best penalty taker in the team, as well as their captain. Yet he didn't even take one because of a huge unnecessary gamble.

He's not a "bottler", but it was a ridiculous decision.

Anybody who would criticise him for going first are people with a predetermined agenda, but that's their problem.

I think Nani is a better penalty taker, but it's all subjective I suppose.

augustus gloop

ronny dropped his bottle like a milkman with parkinsons

should have took the 3rd penno

adox

Tox56 wrote: »

I don't care for him either way, and I'm not one of these people who will 'find anything to throw at him', but he was by far and away the best penalty taker in the team, as well as their captain. Yet he didn't even take one because of a huge unnecessary gamble.

He's not a "bottler", but it was a ridiculous decision.

Anybody who would criticise him for going first are people with a predetermined agenda, but that's their problem.

Ronaldo was taking the 5th peno for Portugal when he was a teenager.

It can be argued its the wrong decision now he's the captain and best player but that's the way it is.

Storm in a tea cup.

darced

This post has been deleted.

markesmith

Bloody hell, just watched that upstairs in the Dewdrop Inn in Galway, 40% Spanish, 40% Portuguese and then us! About 20 of each in a cramped little room! Great atmosphere

shrewdness

I see Fabregas asked for 5th penalty, he was actually allocated the 2nd one! Does that make him more of a glory hunter and mean he has a bigger ego than Ronaldo seeing as he changed to it from another penalty? Somehow I don't think he'll get as many giving out about him. (Yes I know he scored the winner but alot of people are annoyed at Ronaldos arrogance in taking the 5th penalty)

Dempsey

spain had better penalty takers than portugal. pepe and alves arent reknowned for penos

kryogen

Dempsey wrote: »

spain had better penalty takers than portugal. pepe and alves arent reknowned for penos

Pepe scored his

Why are people focusing on them and ignoring that Spain had Pique and Ramos take penalties?

eyescreamcone

As a coach of a soccer team (well below LOI), I would pick my 5 in the order of merit.
Best 1st
5th best 5th

Reason
Try to get ahead - just get your nose in front. It adds huge pressure to the other team.
You may not have to use your 5th best pen taker.

I read an article which said forwards score more than defenders. Sorry no link.
This should influence selection also.

It is certainly not a lottery and I hate to see players shaking hands after extra time before the shoot out.
The game is not over.
Play to win until the end.
You can shake hands after it's all over.

Corholio

The object of penalties is to score as many as you can, surely your best penalty takers should take them first. Dont know how people can argue against Ronaldo not taking a penalty. If it was his decision, it was ridiculous and arrogant. If it was Bento's, it was equally ridiculous and made no sense, team wise.

Cruel Sun

Spain have disappointed me so far, I can't see them beating the Germans in the final.

Dempsey

kryogen wrote: »

Dempsey wrote: »

spain had better penalty takers than portugal. pepe and alves arent reknowned for penos

Pepe scored his

Why are people focusing on them and ignoring that Spain had Pique and Ramos take penalties?

so, ramos and pique are better peno takers

your best taker shouldnt be 5th, its ridiculous to defend ronaldo not going earlier.

Technique

kryogen

Dempsey wrote: »

so, ramos and pique are better peno takers

your best taker shouldnt be 5th, its ridiculous to defend ronaldo not going earlier.

I did not defend Ronaldo going 5th.

Why is it ok for Spain to use defenders and not Portugal? Your argument makes no sense.

The manager decides the penalties, take your issue up with him

Dempsey

its not really to do with them being defenders, they were the weakest 2 to step up for portugal regardless of whether they scored them or not.

spain had a strong 5 taking, portugal didnt and their best didnt take one

the_monkey

CONGRATULATIONS SPAIN, EUROPEAN CHAMPIONS 2012 AND EVERY MAJOR TOURNAMENT WINNERS UNTILL 2026 .... ZZZZZZZZZZZZZ SNOOZEFEST....

CongoPowers

For a change, I'm delighted Spain won.

Thought Jordi Alba and Sergio Ramos were their best players, Iniesta was the only hope of creating anything during the ninety from either side I thought.

Have to give Sergio Ramos credit, he may be an absolute cunt, but that took balls after the horrible miss against Bayern.

CR was going to get blamed regardless. I still don’t think he had enough chances to influence the game despite Spain being way off their best, but he really isn’t a leader. I don’t understand why he of all players would be chosen as captain of a country. It’s a bit daft giving your most talented player the captaincy for the sake of it, also puts more pressure on him to begin with.

Three Barça lads scored their penalties, of course

kryogen

Dempsey wrote: »

its not really to do with them being defenders, they were the weakest 2 to step up for portugal regardless of whether they scored them or not.

spain had a strong 5 taking, portugal didnt and their best didnt take one

Moutinho should never have missed his one in the first place, shocking penalty.

I disagree with Pepe being one of the weak links, that falls to the right back, Coutinho and the pressue on the younger lads may have put the coach off naming them.

I would not have had Bruno taking one myself, but his penalty wasn't far from being perfect really. Thats life, Ronaldo should have taken the first imo, but he never takes the first penalty for Portugal iirc and he did not make the list.

Spain had much stronger candidates for penalties after the Portugeese subs had been made. Everyone could see that.

Dempsey

moutinho is usually good at penos, like alonso. why mention pereira, he didnt take a peno?

Cruel Sun

the_monkey wrote: »

CONGRATULATIONS SPAIN, EUROPEAN CHAMPIONS 2012 AND EVERY MAJOR TOURNAMENT WINNERS UNTILL 2026 .... ZZZZZZZZZZZZZ SNOOZEFEST....

Don't worry. The Germans will win in the final.

kryogen

Look at it from Bentos point of view, even if you disagree with him.

Moutinho is your number 1 guy, you dont fancy Perreira or the younger guys for penalties, matter of fact you dont fancy anybody but Moutinho, Ronaldo and Nani but you have to pick 5

So you have your number 1 guy go first, you want Nani to go third in case that one proves crucial maybe, and you dont want Alves to be taking a possible all important 5th so you tell him to go 4th.

Im not saying thats his exact line of thought, but I wouldn't want him taking a possibly crucial penalty 5th to keep us in or win the shootout. So he puts Ronaldo 5th (where he has always taken penalties for Portugal I think)

Id have had Ronaldo first, tell him he is the captain, he is the leader, set the tone. Go out there and bury it, calm the nerves.

Then Moutinho, Pepe and Nani and pray I didnt need a 5th cause then the options are limited but Id have let Contrao take one too. Not sure where I would slot him in.

Alves is the only issue I have with the actual kick takers, he should not have been near it imo but thats life.

Spain were there for the taking tonight and Portugal were not good enough to beat them. Best team won in the end, Spain were the only ones who looked like they wanted to win in extra time.