School Records

binxeo

I was at my son's school centenary mass yesterday and as part of it they had old roll books from 1900 +. I never thought of looking at local primary schools from where my family lived to see if they were recorded on the roll books. I know all of them could read and right from this period. Thought it was interesting and maybe not the obvious place to look. I asked the principal would all schools have these and she said they should do, they have to keep them. Some of the details in the records my sons school had, were child's name, father's name and fathers occupation as well as address.

Hope this info helps others.

Coolnabacky1873

The National School system was set up in 1831 and for many areas there can be school register records that begin in the 1860s.

PRONI has a collection of about 1,500 for schools in NI.
The NAI only has about 150 as the vast majority are still in local custody.
You can find microfilms for a few hundred on Familysearch.

Many areas put out a publication for the history/anniversary of a school and the better ones will have school register info. The primary school I went to put out a brilliant publication for it's 50th anniversary and had all the names and townlands for all pupils from 1863-1930.

In all there are three types of registers:
Type A includes info such as pupil register number, age, religion, father's occupation, reason and date for withdrawal from school
Type B includes info such as rate of payment for pupil, attendance and a remarks column
Type C includes (I think) info on 5 different students. Don't know if it's a random sample or they are picked for a particular reason.

This really is on of the great untapped genealogical resources as it's basically a yearly census of children. If only FMP or some other such organization could centralize and scan them as it depresses me to think of them probably being stored in less than ideal conditions and no realization of their genealogical value.

odds_on

binxeo wrote: »

I was at my son's school centenary mass yesterday and as part of it they had old roll books from 1900 +. I never thought of looking at local primary schools from where my family lived to see if they were recorded on the roll books. I know all of them could read and right from this period. Thought it was interesting and maybe not the obvious place to look. I asked the principal would all schools have these and she said they should do, they have to keep them. Some of the details in the records my sons school had, were child's name, father's name and fathers occupation as well as address.

Hope this info helps others.

It obviously didn't get passed down!!!!!!

Sorry, I just couldn't refuse the opportunity! Does your spell checker not work? Mine does, thank God! But then, it wouldn't pick up that mistake.

Chazz Michael Michaels

Very handy!

BlackMilk

Aha id love to see those of my family too
But its strange becouse I just finished highschool and I had to go there to get my school records or they would be incinerated lol

They said they were out of space so students now must take their process home (though they have the important stuff on the computers)

At least glad to know that if i apply to college they wont check for any of the somewhat shamefull things the records may hold, becouse they cant have it

So no big brother here aha

Jellybaby1

What about school reports - would these be kept on record too?

pinkypinky

The school records will largely depend on what the school itself retained. The national archives has some but they are registers - roll books and some records of job applications.

Chazz Michael Michaels

My great grandfather was a national school teacher, would his employment record be available?

lottpaul

Chazz Michael Michaels wrote: »

My great grandfather was a national school teacher, would his employment record be available?

Very unlikely I would say.
The only documents that schools must retain are roll books and registers. Many keep pupil reports for a period of time -usually until the people concerned are aged 21+ when they are destroyed but this would vary hugely from place to place.
Some schools keep inspectors reports on teachers and the school itself and some of those might still exist.
The only record of your gt grndfathers employment would be a contract with his patron/manager but its unlikely the record would survive. You could contact the school - if it still exists.
The Department of Education would have a record of service and salary but I don't know how long they retain them after someone has died/retired.

CeannRua

Chazz Michael Michaels wrote: »

My great grandfather was a national school teacher, would his employment record be available?

More likely with National Archives than the school. Depending on date etc there might be info in some of the following sources
http://www.nationalarchives.ie/research/research-guides-and-articles/guide-to-sources-on-national-education/

zagmund

School records are definitely useful sources. I've written to the archivists for some schools that my great-whatnots went to and got good information about them.

One of them (back in the day when they had millions of staff & priests) used to keep newspaper cuttings and references that they pulled years after the students left.

For example on a clipping about Zig McZagmund being appointed Chief Executive of the Bank of Zig in 1940 - "Likely to be the same McZagmund that left school in 1902".

I wrote to another one to get information regarding another relative. I got a mail back from them saying "We spent the last 3 weeks going through all the records but we can't find any records of Sophia McZagmund." Only after a while did I remember that her name was Sophia Smiff - I had forgotten to tell them the surname so they had assumed it was my surname. That was an unfortunate waste of time. I'm giving them a few months to calm down before asking them to look again.

z

Jellybaby1

zagmund wrote: »

I wrote to another one to get information regarding another relative. I got a mail back from them saying "We spent the last 3 weeks going through all the records but we can't find any records of Sophia McZagmund." Only after a while did I remember that her name was Sophia Smiff - I had forgotten to tell them the surname so they had assumed it was my surname. That was an unfortunate waste of time. I'm giving them a few months to calm down before asking them to look again.

z

Oops!

binxeo

odds_on wrote: »

It obviously didn't get passed down!!!!!!

Sorry, I just couldn't refuse the opportunity! Does your spell checker not work? Mine does, thank God! But then, it wouldn't pick up that mistake.

Eh I am sure that was a joke, but low blow! Not really contributing to the thread!!:(

Anyway. I am glad this has generate so much info, a lot of it new to me!! Cheers everyone!

Wearb

I decided to add my question to this thread rather than start a new one.

I wanted to gather information on the names of the people that were in my classes as I progressed through primary school many years ago. I contacted the principle to get permission to look through the roll books. He initially agreed but got back to me later informing me that he had made inquiries and that due to the Data Protection Act, I could not record such information.

Does anyone here have any opinion or experience on/of this? Anyone have any idea if there is somewhere that I could go to get permission to make a note of the names of my fellow classmates?

lottpaul

I think the principal is correct. We are allowed view our own records only - they would be in breach of DP if they allowed you free access to official roll books, registers etc.
Would there be other records though? photographs with names attached etc? Older, retired teachers might also have unofficial records and might be willing to help out?

CeannRua

Wearb wrote: »

I decided to add my question to this thread rather than start a new one.

I wanted to gather information on the names of the people that were in my classes as I progressed through primary school many years ago. I contacted the principle to get permission to look through the roll books. He initially agreed but got back to me later informing me that he had made inquiries and that due to the Data Protection Act, I could not record such information.

Does anyone here have any opinion or experience on/of this? Anyone have any idea if there is somewhere that I could go to get permission to make a note of the names of my fellow classmates?

Principal is 100% correct.

Wearb

Not questioning the decision of the principle, but wondering if there is somebody higher up the system that could give such limited permission.

zagmund

Wearb wrote: »

Not questioning the decision of the principle, but wondering if there is somebody higher up the system that could give such limited permission.

Umm, I think you are questioning the decision of the principal. Just saying that you are not doesn't make it true.

I don't get what you mean by limited permission. What's the limit? Is it because it's only you?

You might find that there's a past pupils association who has already done some of the work (tracking past pupils down) that you are interested in doing. They could help you. Or, you could offer to help the school by building a database (for them) of past pupils using their registers.

z

Wearb

zagmund wrote: »

Umm, I think you are questioning the decision of the principal. Just saying that you are not doesn't make it true.

I don't get what you mean by limited permission. What's the limit? Is it because it's only you?

You might find that there's a past pupils association who has already done some of the work (tracking past pupils down) that you are interested in doing. They could help you. Or, you could offer to help the school by building a database (for them) of past pupils using their registers.

z

Thinking its not true doesn't make it not true either, if you want to follow that flawed logic.
Limited permission would be to have someone watch as I wrote down the names of my class mates and no other details. BTW why do you take such a belligerent attitude? Have you formed an opinion, and then want to mould the facts to fit?

Your last paragraph is helpful, but I would not be so underhanded as to gather the information by building a database. I will, however see if there has been any such work done by any past pupils, and thank you for that.

CeannRua

Wearb wrote: »

Not questioning the decision of the principle, but wondering if there is somebody higher up the system that could give such limited permission.

The principal's decision is in accordance with Data Protection law imo so if someone else overturned this decision, it would be in breach of the law. I'd agree with Zagmund's questions about what you mean by 'limited permission'. The definition of personal information includes names and I don't think there is any such thing as 'limited permission' in the legislation but there is plenty of info on the Data Protection Commissioner's site. You could also contact the Commissioner's office and see what they think. If they think you have a case, you could lodge a formal appeal.

Jellybaby1

Wearb wrote: »

....I wanted to gather information on the names of the people that were in my classes as I progressed through primary school many years ago.......Does anyone here have any opinion or experience on/of this? Anyone have any idea if there is somewhere that I could go to get permission to make a note of the names of my fellow classmates?...

Could I ask the reason for wanting the names of your old classmates? If you are organising a reunion, perhaps you could ask the school to put up a request on their website for past pupils from certain years who were there at the same time as you, to contact you for a reunion. Or you might try Facebook. My husband was invited to a school reunion a few years back but he was tracked down by the organiser getting contact details from as many people as he knew first of all, then they passed the information on and on, it probably took about a year to organise. I am sure I could still manage to track down many of my old schoolmates from 50 years ago with this method. But maybe that wasn't your plan though.

Wearb

Jellybaby1 wrote: »

Could I ask the reason for wanting the names of your old classmates? If you are organising a reunion, perhaps you could ask the school to put up a request on their website for past pupils from certain years who were there at the same time as you, to contact you for a reunion. Or you might try Facebook. My husband was invited to a school reunion a few years back but he was tracked down by the organiser getting contact details from as many people as he knew first of all, then they passed the information on and on, it probably took about a year to organise. I am sure I could still manage to track down many of my old schoolmates from 50 years ago with this method. But maybe that wasn't your plan though.

I was intending to have a meeting of my classmates -who live nearby- with a view to having a reunion.
Almost none of my fellow students who live nearby ever check the school website, nor did I until recently. Also we disagree about who was in our classes. It is confused by the fact that I attended a small school that had 3 classes in nearly each classroom. Also we had children come and go from our classes.
I am sure that I could also track down 95% of my classmates, but I would like to have the names of 100% of them so that no one would be left out, or erroneously included.

Jellybaby1

I understand your predicament. I also understand the situation where the school will not allow you access to records either so its best to forget about chasing that. I suggest you just start with those people you do know and build up a network over time. Everyone on this forum will tell you patience brings its own rewards, but it could take years. You never know how far you might get. This being Ireland, word-of-mouth really travels here! Good luck with it.

Perhaps others here can help me with the same kind of problem but with older school records going back to when my parents were in school around 1915 - 1925. Any chance I could check these records out anywhere? Or is there a site with a list of schools in Dublin at the time which I could check? I'd also love to know where their parents went to school around 1890. They kept moving around the city so hard to pin it down at the moment.

Wearb

Jellybaby1 wrote: »

I understand your predicament. I also understand the situation where the school will not allow you access to records either so its best to forget about chasing that. I suggest you just start with those people you do know and build up a network over time. Everyone on this forum will tell you patience brings its own rewards, but it could take years. You never know how far you might get. This being Ireland, word-of-mouth really travels here! Good luck with it.

Perhaps others here can help me with the same kind of problem but with older school records going back to when my parents were in school around 1915 - 1925. Any chance I could check these records out anywhere? Or is there a site with a list of schools in Dublin at the time which I could check? I'd also love to know where their parents went to school around 1890. They kept moving around the city so hard to pin it down at the moment.

Thanks for the suggestions.
As for your quest, I think the principle informed me that there would be no problem with records of deceased persons, if I understood him correctly. So if you can find the school, you might be home and dry.

pinkypinky

Jellybaby1 wrote: »

Perhaps others here can help me with the same kind of problem but with older school records going back to when my parents were in school around 1915 - 1925. Any chance I could check these records out anywhere? Or is there a site with a list of schools in Dublin at the time which I could check? I'd also love to know where their parents went to school around 1890. They kept moving around the city so hard to pin it down at the moment.

It's a really untapped resource and there's nothing centralised. The National Archives will have some records, which will have come in via the Dept of Education. County libraries may have ended up with some too. If the school still exists though, the chances are that they'll have old records somewhere onsite, or destroyed them. I got lucky with a hint from my grandmother about where her father-in-law went to school. I rang them, they still had records (1901) and gave me the details. It was extremely helpful at the time because it provided an address, before the census was online.

Jellybaby1

Thanks, I may have a chance then of finding something. Sometimes I wonder why I go down certain roads as it doesn't look like it would give me very much, but I have made mistakes in the past by not heeding my own gut feeling and have missed things. So best foot forward, as they say.

Enda63

Chazz Michael Michaels wrote: »

My great grandfather was a national school teacher, would his employment record be available?

There are amazing records on teachers in NAI, I have followed the teaching careers of my great grandmother and my grandfather from them being monitors to their retirements

hblock21

Hi,
What are the name of these records at the NAI? What sort of things did you find?

pinkypinky

There'll be a seminar about them in the National Archives on 9th November.
See Claire's blog for details; you have to book.

Enda63

hblock21 wrote: »

Hi,
What are the name of these records at the NAI? What sort of things did you find?

I used the ED4 series, which are teachers salary books. There was lots of stuff in them but the biggest find I had was the date of my great grandfathers death which was never registered nor was it on the family headstone.

hblock21

Information on what the NAI hold regarding School Records.

http://www.nationalarchives.ie/topics/Nat_Schools/natschs.html

mickmackey1

Wearb wrote: »

I wanted to gather information on the names of the people that were in my classes as I progressed through primary school many years ago. I contacted the principle to get permission to look through the roll books. He initially agreed but got back to me later informing me that he had made inquiries and that due to the Data Protection Act, I could not record such information.

lottpaul wrote: »

I think the principal is correct. We are allowed view our own records only - they would be in breach of DP if they allowed you free access to official roll books, registers etc.

Coolnabacky1873 wrote: »

Many areas put out a publication for the history/anniversary of a school and the better ones will have school register info. The primary school I went to put out a brilliant publication for it's 50th anniversary and had all the names and townlands for all pupils from 1863-1930.

That seems like a total contradiction, if it's in breach of DP how do these local publications get their hands on the rolls? Our own area brought out an interesting book some years ago which contained a full list of every pupil in the rolls, I don't recall anyone asking permission for my name to be included and I don't think anyone else had a problem with it either :rolleyes:

CeannRua

mickmackey1 wrote: »

That seems like a total contradiction, if it's in breach of DP how do these local publications get their hands on the rolls? Our own area brought out an interesting book some years ago which contained a full list of every pupil in the rolls, I don't recall anyone asking permission for my name to be included and I don't think anyone else had a problem with it either :rolleyes:

Yep, you're right. My former school did the same. How they got their hands on the registers was the principal was involved in the publication. Suspect it's the same in many similar cases. Regardless of what has been done elsewhere, the principal in Wearb's case was legally correct to deny access.

pinkypinky

If the roll books were in the possession of the National Archives or a county library, then anyone could look at them.