House condition versus price

Roxee

Hi all

Question for anyone who's bought a house from 50s/60s. Just curious to get people's experiences on issues (structual/boundary issues/cosmetic repairs etc) that arose in survey and how they dealt with them in terms of renegotiating the selling price.

I'm sale agreed on a early 1960s semi-d. Bank Valuer has pointed out a few things that came to their attention. I won't be getting a structural survey done til next week. Obviously I'll know the situation fully at that stage but in the meantime, I'm just curious as to people's experiences about the renegotiating side.

One thing for example is the porch is apparently coming away from house (enough to cause a crack). I'll know more come survey time, but depending on how much it's going to cost to fix, would it be an unwritten rule that seller would take the hit on that entirely?

I'd assume things like insulation etc are things you know when you make your offer, and so it's understood you're taking this into consideration. But structural things, you can't know about. Which is why the offer is stated as being "subect to survey".

Anyway, just love to hear experiences from those who have been there

Thanks!

the_syco

Roxee wrote: »

Which is why the offer is stated as being "subect to survey".

Thank f**k for that! Yes, if the survey says it'll cost X to fix it, then negotiate with the seller saying that Y amount minus the X amount will be your offer.

riclad

If the survey comes back, says eg theres dry rot, cost to fix 3k, you might reduce your offer by x amount.

OLD house means there might be lots of small things, to fix.

Your likely to need to put in proper insulation, new pvc windows. maybe replace some floorboards or window frames .eg old house, needs upgrading, decoration, new carpets, that should'nt effect the price.

If theres material repairs that cost thousands then its up to you to negotiate a lower price.turn on taps, turn on boiler, make sure heating is working. Its specific major faults that effect the price, a crack in a wall may just cost 50 euro to fix.

A survey may find just as lot of small things to fix.which maynot effect the price.

AlasAnAlias

Bought a house and after 'sale agreed' (i.e. signing/got the keys) realized that the central heating didn't work. It was, of course, on the sale brochure that the house had central heating and we assumed that it was working. The estate agent (the main one you could say) said it was sold 'as is' and we had no comeback, that we should have checked. We paid €800 to have it fixed ourselves..............

Ray Palmer

the_syco wrote: »

Roxee wrote: »

Which is why the offer is stated as being "subect to survey".

Thank f**k for that! Yes, if the survey says it'll cost X to fix it, then negotiate with the seller saying that Y amount minus the X amount will be your offer.

It really is not that straight forward. Unless it is something quite major and even then the seller may simply not be willing to negotiate. More likely to get half of x off as the offer made should consider work needed. A survey will mention lots of things including recommendations on requiring, re plumb and insulation as standard. Surprises are foundation and major roof repair. It is a buyers market but not every recommendation on the survey mean reduction in offer.

AlasAnAlias

riclad wrote: »

if the survey comes back,says eg theres dry rot,cost to fix 3k, you might reduce your offer by x amount.
OLD house means there might be lots of small things,to fix.
your likely to need to put in proper insulation, new pvc windows. maybe replace some floorboards or window frames .eg old house ,needs upgrading,decoration ,new carpets ,that should,nt effect the price.
if theres material repairs that cost thousands then its up to you to negotiate a lower price.turn on taps, turn on boiler,make sure heating is working .
its specific major faults that effect the price, a crack in a wall may just cost 50 euro to fix.

Thanks! Live and learn!

TheDriver

AlasAnAlias wrote: »

Bought a house and after 'sale agreed' (i.e. signing/got the keys) realized that the central heating didn't work. It was, of course, on the sale brochure that the house had central heating and we assumed that it was working. The estate agent (the main one you could say) said it was sold 'as is' and we had no comeback, that we should have checked. We paid €800 to have it fixed ourselves..............

your engineer is to blame tbh

kkelliher

I did a survey two weeks ago for a client and found the roof felt in the attic was burst in about 10 areas. There was an issue with the state of elecrics and plumbing, attic was completly uninsulated and along with a few other items that I found the Client was able to negociate a discount from her already accepted offer of €15,000

Its a negotiation after all so depending on demand for that particular property or the length of time it has been for sale, you may or may not be able to get a discount.

engineermike

Ray Palmer wrote: »

It really is not that straight forward.
Unless it is something quite major and even then the seller may simply not be willing to negotiate. More likely to get half of x off as the offer made should consider work needed.
A survey will mention lots of things including recommendations on requiring, re plumb and insulation as standard. Surprises are foundation and major roof repair. It is a buyers market but not every recommendation on the survey mean reduction in offer.

I'd be in full agreement with Ray on this, It all depends on the vendors stance and how the price was arrived at. You may put in an offer based on the costings of the issues noted in the survey.

I've a wealth of information about these property types as we survey one or two properties of this age every month or so, and I also my family home was built in the 1950's

An example from my personal home purchase - bought at the top of the market ( !!! yay me ) - 230 K - was asking, Survey'd it myself & got independent survey also ( just to have their PI over the purchase).

I knew there was 50 K of modifications - structural re pitching of roof, insulation work on the drains. Negotiated with the vendor- got it for 180K.

So here we are 5 years later, my neighbor is moving back home to Donegal, house is on market for 40 K ( yes the house for 40 K ! ) - same identical house, needs similar work done as mine, similar costings etc. - you won't get any negotiation on the price - its sold as seen, basically your decision if you want the buy for that price and put your own money in to the repairs / works.

So Pre 63' homes, general advice - rule of thumb:

The requirement of Planning Permission was only brought in in '63. Therefore anything that you built before '63, did not require Planning - Boundary issues should be reviewed as part of your structural survey process.

Building Regulations came later 90's, initially as guidelines and then compulsorily in '92 therefore some practices may not have been in place during construction of the home.

Structure itself : -
personally i like properties of this age : you usually get to see what your getting and defects such as damp and modifications are plain to see, unlike some of the stuff built in the last decade or so - the mind boggles at some of the stuff built recently.

A client in the last month buying a receiver sale property (5 years old) - up to second fix stage - needed decor and some finishes. We performed the traditional survey - noted pyrite heave signs and a multitude of other issues.

Pyrite core sampling undertaken - and proved- medium to high risk of heave recorded, and during the core sampling of the slab and infill beneath, no radon barrier or damp proof membrane ?????

Large expenditure in professional fee's for the client, and in the end the advice was not to negotiate - walk away or tear the building down and start again on the land.

The out of sight out of mind attitude is unbelievable in construction of late, and you tend not to find it in houses from the 50 / 60's / 70's - but you balance that against age related issues - overhaul roof, insulation, wiring etc. etc.

- other things to watch out for are - any modifications to the original property attic conversions or extensions etc. - can be problematic / and should be examined closely during survey process.

- Survey should cost approx 300 / 350 depending on size of home and location.
Hope this info. is helpful>

NB - heating system test - doesn't form part of a structural survey, how would you expect an engineer to test a heating system when at times no oil, gas or electricity supply is available ??

We would however comment on last service date of boiler or any visual defects broken pipes, leak stains etc.

Regards,
Mike F

riclad

go for a viewing, ask the agent, can i turn on heating, for 5 minutes.

With a old house, you may discover heating doesnt work, immersion heater doesnt work, it may need complete, rewiring.

I, M not an expert, but i think pyrite, is more a problem in houses built in last 15 years, due to a low grade, or incorrect concrete mix.

BE aware you'll have to spend x amount to bring an old house up to modern standard re insulation, even if survey turns up no major problems.

Many old houses have no proper dpc, to stop rising damp.

the Surveyor is not there to test the electrics or heating system.

Roxee

Thanks for the replies all, it's really interesting to hear people's experiences.

Luckily, my surveyor is in the family so it's good to have someone who I trust will be thorough and will care about my interests enough to not sugarcoat anything or lead me up the garden path.

I won't make any judgement calls or despair too much until the full survey is done anyway. All part of the fun of buying a second hand house eh?

I know the house will need rewiring, and I know upstairs windows aren't double glazed - these are things I took into consideration when making my offer and I'm happy to take the hit on that. But I didn't bargain on the porch subsiding, so that's another matter.

The attic in this house is converted but valuer says it wouldn't pass building regs to be anything more than storage. (Not sure when it was done) And the pitch of the stairs is too steep. And there isn't enough landing space at top. (The rule of thumb being that two full sized men should be able to carry a third full sized man prone down the stairs? Never knew that ). Anyway, provided it's sturdy enough to withstand regular use, and safety isn't a concern, then I assume it's my choice what I use it for? It's just that it can't be listed as a bedroom per se?

Does anyone know the impact of this on house insurance? I think I read something about sellers taking out some small policy so that if something happened under the new buyers watch that it'd be covered? And that this is possibly enough to satisfy house insurance? Again, I'll know more when I investigate fully myself, but just curious to see other's thoughts! It might prove helpful to others too.

Thanks a mil

riclad

You are buying an old house, dont expect it to conform to to modern standards of design or layout, AND that can be a good thing.

SOME old houses have much higher ceilings, and thicker walls than an average semi d.

I see no problem with the stairs, or landing, except it may be hard to get a large bed or couch, upstairs if the angle between the landing and stairs is narrow.

High ceilings = more space.

i'm not an expert, houses 50 plus years, may be more costly to insure.

if house is worth 50k, dont insure it for 120k.

if the windows are standard size, its possible to buy pvc windows, on adverts.ie, gumtree, or donedeal. if you wanna pm me, i know a shop sells, pvc windows cheap, eg 4x4 70euro, secondhand but in good condition.he has about 70 windows in stock at the moment. i would say to surveyor, place close attention to roof, even look at roof yourself.

ONE, BROKEN or damaged tile can cause a leak, which can damage the plaster ceilings, very likely, there'll be 2 or 3 damaged or missing tiles on the roof.

re windows if buying em, re estimating size of new window leave 5mm all round frame, empty space for installation purposes. ie to put in silicone., sealant.

engineermike

Hi

Some other 'older house; particulars -
- As Riclad said, walls are normally all concrete ( not as many 'stud' walls - unless added later ) - this can push electrical re wire costs up - more labor intensive to chase walls & re plastering or skiming of wall chases etc.
- I mentioned pyrite as an example of newer build houses earlier - and yes a dpc may not be present in an older house, but the signs of damp are easier to spot in older houses subject to decades of use, making it easy to assess your repair costs /
- The attic - yes point of concern, not head height to meet regulations of habitable rooom for RIR (Room in roof ) construction - stair well narrow. A few things to look out for :

If attic conversion (and consequently the house) does not comply with Building Regulations in a number of areas; particular attention by your surveyor should be paid to :Part B-Fire, Part K-Stairs, Part F Ventilation and possibly Part A–Structures.

With reference to the Technical Guidance Documents (TGD) B (2006):
1.1 The enclosures and doors along the escape route to the ground floor and out may need to be upgraded to be fire resistant. (fire resisting enclosure around the attic stairs).
1.2 The new accommodation to be separated from the existing stairway.
1.3 Velux rooflights need to meet the requirements for escape.
1.4 The attic stairs should meet the requirements of TGD of Part K.
1.5 All escape routes should have a minimum clear headroom of not less than 2 m.
1.6 Question marks over whether the attic floor structure has the necessary 30 minute fire resistance.

With reference to TGD of Part K-Stairs (1997):
2.1 The heights of the risers may vary and exceed the maximum 220mm allowed.
2.2 The stair width may vary and be below the minimum 800mm recommended.

With reference to TGD of Part F-Ventilation (1997):
3.1 Background ventilation in the attic room; wall vents or trickle vents in the windows should be present.
3.2 The attic room should meet the recommendations for minimum ceiling heights of 2.1m for “habitable rooms”. Furthermore it should also meet the ceiling heights and area requirements for “rooms immediately below the roof”.

With reference to TGD of Part A-Structures (1997):
4.1 If engineering services were provided in the design and construction of the attic structure an opinion on compliance with Part A-Structures should be sought from the designer.

It is clear from the OP that the attic room is not suitable as a “habitable room”/bedroom - however some of the above can render the property non compliant with Building regulations.

Mike F

Victor

Can people use paragraphs and proper length lines of text?

engineermike

Victor wrote: »

Can people use paragraphs and proper length lines of text?

Apology Victor, I broke it down for easy digestion of OP - and anyone interested.
Card marked
Mike

JuliusCaesar

Roxee wrote: »

(The rule of thumb being that two full sized men should be able to carry a third full sized man prone down the stairs? Never knew that ).

Weird. Prone?? ie face down? I can see why 2 ambulance attendants would need to carry somebody, but wouldn't they carry them face up?

Off topic, I know! just that that comment was interesting.