Sean Quinn avoids jail

Floppybits

Looks like we are going to be paying for Quinn's mistakes now for a lot longer than 12 years. How anyone can support this man is unreal and they need to take a long hard look at themselves?

http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0731/quinn-insurance-administration-could-cost-1-6bn.html

Thanks Mr Quinn, I just love paying a 2% levy on my insurance due to your incompetence.:mad:

Laminations

Celeb wrote: »

I don't know and I don't care who your neighbour is, but that's irrelevant.

What I'm saying is, the government have pumped 30bn into Anglo Irish, they also put 13bn into AIB. Then there's the EU-IMF bailout worth about 77bn. But apparently that's irrelevant, all you're concerned with is the 3bn disputed by Quinn.... hence you're missing the wider picture.

So if Anglo win the case and they get the money back, with this budget adjustment you talk of - do you think this money will then be spent on schools and hospitals etc? Not a chance, any money due is to cover the EU-IMF bailout.

Also Quinn doesn't owe money to the Irish taxpayer, the Irish taxpayer/government is bankrupt, hence the reason for the big bailout.

Anglo needed to be bailed out, Quinn (the man) doesn't. He is not systematic to a functioning system but in case you missed it all his viable companies continue to operate although under new ownership...and his insurance company has been bailed out. Also being bailed out is a separate issue to being held responsible. You and the other supporters keep trying to deflect to the sins of Anglo and crying about some unfairness in the treatment of the bankers vs the Quinns. Have you been living under a rock for the past 3 years that you've missed the extensive investigation into Anglo? An investigation culminating in criminal prosecutions. So don't worry yourself about the Anglo side being held to account - they will be and so should Quinn. In terms of justifying his non-compliance and paymeny of his debts, the amount he owes in relation to the amount of any bailout is as relevant as the amount owed on a mortgage compared to the amount of the bailout (hence my example). I'm not missing any wider picture, I've commented plenty on the case of Anglo and prosecution of men like Fitzpatrick, Drumm etc.

The support for Quinn is disgusting, and the logic of the supporters is...questionable.

rodento

Ramshackled how do you answer the fact that Quinn Insurance Limited may now cost the us more than €1.6bn :eek:

poeticseraphim

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/irishsun/irishsunnews/4461729/Back-Quinn-you-GAA-legends-parade-with-4000-at-demo.html


THIS IS UNREAL....
Seriously??

THE GAA ARE SUPPORTING THIS FAMILY????


It is going to cost over a billion.

I can't understand the support why???

Either we pay as Taxpayers or we pay it in insurance levies etc things like HEALTH, CARS ETC


Your health insurance could be affected ....

The latest bombshell is ON TOP of the 2.5 owed to the IBRC....

I bet we hear his whining voice in the media.....


The GAA has lost it....

I will not be supporting them for a while .

Ramshackled

Laminations wrote: »

Nothing has been illegally taken from them. The loan may have been illegal but you really can't cry foul after playing the advantage. It's nothing like your scenario of loan sharks and burglars as the Quinns were part of the deal. They believed they would profit from it or at least save their investment. And there is little point in arguing with you as you don't seem to appreciate the difference between regulars shares and CFDs.

so you concede that the loan may be illegal but yet you believe that nothing has been taken from them illegally??? they might have been involved in the deal but they were not given the full picture of the state of the bank. really not sure they played advantage, what could they do?

The difference between regular shares and CFDs has no relevance to Sean Quinn's guilt as at this time it was not the Irish taxpayer that would foot the bill if it went wrong, it should have been the European banks that lent Anglo the money. The blanket gaurantee given by the Irish government was a first (for good reason) and could not have been predicted at that time.

Laminations

Ramshackled wrote: »

so you concede that the loan may be illegal but yet you believe that nothing has been taken from them illegally??? they might have been involved in the deal but they were not given the full picture of the state of the bank. really not sure they played advantage, what could they do?

You keep deflecting away from the issue of 500m that he promised to pay and hasn't. Instead squirrelling away assets, and breaching court orders. He feels hard done by because he blames everyone but himself. The other loans to buy shares etc were done with his full knowledge of what CFDs were and he knew the position he was putting himself in. He was loaned the money - if it had gone right for him and he profited he wouldn't be crying foul - he was privy at the time to the legality of the loan. Now that it hasn't worked out he is trying to back out. He knew the position of the bank and he doubled down, when things started going south he threw good money after bad. He was never willing to accept losses.

The difference between regular shares and CFDs has no relevance to Sean Quinn's guilt as at this time it was not the Irish taxpayer that would foot the bill if it went wrong, it should have been the European banks that lent Anglo the money. The blanket gaurantee given by the Irish government was a first (for good reason) and could not have been predicted at that time.

And it still isn't. It is and always was Sean Quinn who would foot the bill if things went wrong. That's what getting involved in the CFD market entails. The ownership of Anglo doesn't affect his liabililities.

He borrowed money (on the persuasion of Anglo execs) to enter a market in which he subsequently got seriously burnt. But it was his decision to take that money and to use it for that purpose and to continually back up his position using monies from his companies. He had himself invested heavily in Anglos future as he acquired 25% of their shares (a position that exposed himself and the bank). Due to his choices their destinies were intertwined.

A lot of people believed the hype and got carried away with themselves on investments etc. They cant all turn around now and claim they were sold a pup with the tiger. He is only a special case because of the huge amounts involved.

JustinDee

Celeb wrote: »

Also Quinn doesn't owe money to the Irish taxpayer, the Irish taxpayer/government is bankrupt, hence the reason for the big bailout.

You should really take a deeper look at the predicament and its background than you obviously are at the moment. Not only is the €2.1bn borrowed to buy jack-up shares an issue (and an illegal issue at that) but the other hundreds of millions of money he did not have used to buy into something he couldn't afford.
He bought unaffordables with money he never had in the first place.

People sticking up for this man and his court is sadly typical of this country. So long as they're all right, Jack, he's all right.

vanillavanilla

anyone else wondering who "Ramshackled" is? 9 posts, most of them in defence of the family Quinns.:D

Mr.Micro

Ramshackled wrote: »

so you concede that the loan may be illegal but yet you believe that nothing has been taken from them illegally??? they might have been involved in the deal but they were not given the full picture of the state of the bank. really not sure they played advantage, what could they do?

We have now discovered that a levy of 2% will be applied to all insurance policies to cover what Quinn insurance were up to, plus the actual extra billions that will be needed to support Quinn insurance under its current form. Apparently Quinn insurance, under the Quinns did not put near enough money by against insurance claims and oversold policies in the UK at knockdown prices. What chancers they are, absolutely incompetent and negligent IMO. What next will be revealed about the Quinns and there so called successful businesses? I can hardly wait, or maybe I can, as the taxpayer or public will be paying for the Quinns excesses. Do they have an ounce of honour or integrity?

Dirk Gently

Vin B interviews Sean Quinn on tonights show in a few minutes for anyone interested.

MadsL

A great phrase of which I am put in mind is that "the markets discipline" - anyone foolish enough to take a massive punt deserves the 'discipline of the markets'.

I am also happy to see this case being heard by Justice Kelly, a man who believes in such discipline.

Laminations

http://www.tv3.ie/3player/mobile/41/0/

Link to the interview. VB let Quinn get away with spouting untruths and idiocy.
I'm starting to see his supporters point that he's a ignorant farmers son from the bog who was duped by clever bankers because he showed no grasp of financial matters in that interview. He repeated a belief that the bank had no claim over foreign properties because they lent no monies for their purchase, ignoring the fact he gave these properties as collateral on the loans he sought. VB tried to point out that the banks had leans on these assets but he allowed Quinn to much time to waffle about irrelevancies. Quinn in one breath accepts why he was removed from Quinn insurance die to his actions in 2007/2008 (removing money from its cash reserves to back up his position with Anglo) but in the next breath tries to say that was in the past and that the companies performance in 2009/2010 should have meant he was allowed to keep it. He blames the hole in it's accounts on Elderfield and the administrators and fails to recognise that it was under his watch and entry into the UK underselling policies that resulted in the disaster that's lumped us all with a 2% levy on non-life policies.

The man is unapologetic, delusional and revisionist in his accounts. Cavan/Fermanagh is like his principality and his loyal subjects can't see past the likability of their master to properly appraise his liabilities to the state and his behaviour. They are out of step with the rest of the country and think this is all some big Dublin media conspiracy. Terrible

JustinDee

Laminations wrote: »

The man is unapologetic, delusional and revisionist in his accounts. Cavan/Fermanagh is like his principality and his loyal subjects can't see past the likability of their master to properly appraise his liabilities to the state and his behaviour. They are out of step with the rest of the country and think this is all some big Dublin media conspiracy

In a nutshell, that sums it up pretty well.
I wouldn't fall for the naive line though. He knew fair well what he was doing and continues to do now.
Shame on those supporters, just because he has done or can do well by them. That's the problem with this place, the 'I'm All Right Jack' selfish way of thinking.

jmayo

Laminations wrote: »

The man is unapologetic, delusional and revisionist in his accounts. Cavan/Fermanagh is like his principality and his loyal subjects can't see past the likability of their master to properly appraise his liabilities to the state and his behaviour. They are out of step with the rest of the country and think this is all some big Dublin media conspiracy. Terrible

Listen it is not just Cavan Fermanagh, there are enough gobsh**es in other parts of the country supporting him.

It is now turning into yet another example of something I now detest about a big chunk of the Irish population.
To some there is this mythical "system", which would also include what is labelled as the Dublin or D4 meeja, and anyone it seems that gets or tries to get one over on this "system" is a kind of folkhero to this group of Irish people.

And this group of people are not all rural as is often potrayed.
Otherwise the likes of the aherns, lawlor, haughey(s), burke would not have existed.

This support and hero worship was once reserved for local fellows who did alright, pulled a few strokes, often splashed a few quid to the locals (i.e. bought them off), were down to earth (still say hello to locals I guess), but got caught doing a few dirty deals.

Nowadays it appears to include somebody that has cost the state billions, gives two fingers to the law, and has dumped an extra cost on every consumer that will purchase a particular necessary product (i.e. insurance) for the next couple of decades.

Even seanie fitz could have availed of this if he had not bothered going to UCD, become snobish, and been seen hobnobbing at golf clubs with other assorted types.

I guess there is one law for one seanie and another one for the other seanie.
To some it is a tale of two seans.

IMHO both deserve to be in jail and claiming, as many are doing throughout these threads, that one should be in jail before the other is a rogues excuse.

Laminations

Can someone explain this. I've read the following and I'm wondering why Quinns are getting salaries and where these salaries are going

http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/sean-quinns-kids-the-detail-on-30k-monthly-expenses-3187230.html

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-19063417


The Quinn families accounts are frozen. They applied to the high court for the release of living expenses (outrageous amounts IMO).

They all seem to be earning a salary from a Russian based property group (IPG). This was run by Peter Darragh Quinn, and afaik is still under Quinn control).

This company collected 35m in rents. 3m of this was paid to the Quinns. Was this paid into their frozen accounts? Are these rents from the properties that they moved outside the States reach? 32 million is as of yet unaccounted for. The judge is not happy at all about this. Nor are the judiciary happy about the level of honesty, compliance and respect the Quinn family (or members of the family) have shown the courts. Yet the high court judge accepts affidavits from these people entitling them to withdraw 30,000 a month in expenses??

As long as they don't cooperate with the courts, the courts should not cooperate with them.

Why are they earning salaries from properties that aren't theirs? Where is the other 32m?

At this stage Judge Dunne should issue a warrant for Sean Snr's arrest. Jail himself and his son indefinitely until their contempt is purged. This will leave the fugitive Perer Darragh Quinn in the pressured position of coming forward and cooperating with authorities here to secure the release of his uncle and cousin - after which of course he'll be arrested for trying to evade a commital warrant.

Mr.Micro

Laminations wrote: »

Can someone explain this. I've read the following and I'm wondering why Quinns are getting salaries and where these salaries are going

http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/sean-quinns-kids-the-detail-on-30k-monthly-expenses-3187230.html

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-19063417


The Quinn families accounts are frozen. They applied to the high court for the release of living expenses (outrageous amounts IMO).

They all seem to be earning a salary from a Russian based property group (IPG). This was run by Peter Darragh Quinn, and afaik is still under Quinn control).

This company collected 35m in rents. 3m of this was paid to the Quinns. Was this paid into their frozen accounts? Are these rents from the properties that they moved outside the States reach? 32 million is as of yet unaccounted for. The judge is not happy at all about this. Nor are the judiciary happy about the level of honesty, compliance and respect the Quinn family (or members of the family) have shown the courts. Yet the high court judge accepts affidavits from these people entitling them to withdraw 30,000 a month in expenses??

As long as they don't cooperate with the courts, the courts should not cooperate with them.

Why are they earning salaries from properties that aren't theirs? Where is the other 32m?

At this stage Judge Dunne should issue a warrant for Sean Snr's arrest. Jail himself and his son indefinitely until their contempt is purged. This will leave the fugitive Perer Darragh Quinn in the pressured position of coming forward and cooperating with authorities here to secure the release of his uncle and cousin - after which of course he'll be arrested for trying to evade a commital warrant.

From last weekend's headlines and on VB's show last night, he has no intention of giving up the assets. He said last week that he was prepared to go to jail. It does not take much to see the bullheadedness and stubborness in his personality. Him to admit he is wrong....never. This matter will drag on for years and the Quinns will continue to get expenses and earnings from the assets and the taxpayer will foot the bill. IMO, he ran his business so badly, that even if there had not been a property collapse his insurance company would have collapsed in time. He is no businessman, just thinks he is. So easy now to try the naive card and how he was duped, just like his wife who tried the same tack.

Laminations

But then surely Judge Dunne needs some foresight. With the contempt the family are showing and the lack of willingness to face consequences, she must know that once the three months are up the moment she releases Sean Jnr he and his father will high tail it to the north and out of the courts jurisdiction. Other members of the family are emigrating to York, unemployed but raking in thousands a month in trumped up expenses.

They need to be jailed indefinitely for their contempt as they'll never accept their responsibilities. Peter Quinn needs to be smoked out. They need to be strong armed into accepting their fate - that they are broke. That their patriarch gambled and list their family fortune.

Laminations

Very good account, and a must read for Quinn supporters. It dismantles most of the untruths they spout.

What are the facts in the Sean Quinn case?

Here are some key facts:

Sean Quinn didn't invest in Anglo Irish Bank, he bet on it
If all he'd done was buy shares, his losses would have been limited.

But Sean Quinn chose a dangerous financial instrument called Contracts for Difference (CFDs) to build up a 25% stake in Anglo Irish Bank.

It was a leveraged bet on the share price - if it his bet had come good, he would have made billions, but because it went bad he lost more than five times his initial huge stake.

He literally bet the bank and both bank and Quinn went down. His losses totalled more than 3.2bn euros at the end, with Anglo on the hook for 2.8bn euros.

Anglo didn't encourage Sean Quinn money to build this stake
Anglo Irish Bank was horrified when it discovered the scale of Sean Quinn's stake because they knew they could both go down if the full story was public.

It was a fatal embrace. The reason some directors of Anglo now face criminal charges is because of money lent to unwind and offload Sean Quinn's bet.

Even Sean Quinn has never publicly suggested that Anglo wanted him to build a 25% stake through CFDs in the bank.

Sean Quinn broke the law before the bank moved in
Sean Quinn was removed from his insurance business by the regulator because he had broken the law.

He had used funds from his insurance business to prop up other parts of the group. It was a serious offence.

The regulator eventually put the entire business into administration because he found the Quinn management were still breaking the rules and there was a massive black hole in the finances. This happened a year before Anglo moved to take control of the rest of the empire.

Sean Quinn now accepts that the actions of the regulator were "right and proper".

Meanwhile all insurance policies in the Republic are now subject to a 2% levy indefinitely to fill the financial hole found in Quinn Insurance.

The family had no viable plan to pay back the money
Once the insurance business was taken from family control, their offer to repay the 2.8 billion euros owed went up in smoke.

The fact that their plan relied upon cash from the insurance arm was not reassuring to a regulator who'd found that they had repeatedly broken the rules not to use money from the regulated business to support the rest of the group.

On 7 March 2011 (one month before Anglo took over the rest of the group) the family's lawyers stated clearly in a letter to Anglo that their offer to repay "was made solely in the context of our clients retaining economic control of Quinn Insurance".

The regulator had already ruled that out, it was not a matter within Anglo's control.

The family did promise to honour loans of 455m euros
In that same letter to Anglo (obtained from Swedish court archives during my investigation for BBC Spotlight) the family's lawyers state: "Your client is aware that 455m euros of loans related to our clients' investments in their international property portfolio (IPP).

"These loans are performing and our clients have met the interest schedules on them, as clearly demonstrated by a review of the attached schedule."

The attached information is headed "Schedule of Valid Property Loans from Anglo Irish Bank Corporation Limited".

Sean Quinn didn't just "frustrate" the bank
The reason Sean Quinn, his son and nephew, are guilty of contempt is because they took actions to interfere with the business and shift assets after Anglo had taken control last April and in breach of specific court injunctions obtained in June.

These actions include Sean Quinn falsifying documents in July (three months after he was ousted) to take control of a Moscow office block worth 180m euros and put it into an offshore company in Belize.

He falsified the documents to make it look like it was done while he was still in charge, but in fact he was a bogus director using fake documents to move very real and valuable assets beyond the reach of the taxpayer-owned bank.

Far from going to court and owning up to this course of action, as Sean Quinn has recently suggested he did, he denied all this in court.

He merely admitted taking steps to frustrate the bank while he was still in charge of the company. The judge didn't believe him.

Sean Quinn isn't defying Anglo alone
He's defying the Irish courts.

It is the courts - not Anglo - that have found him in contempt.

Judge Kelly described the scheme he authorised as one of "mesmeric complexity" that "reeked of dishonesty and sharp practice". It is the courts that have ruled that the debt must be honoured.

The legitimacy of the disputed loans will be determined
There is a case that will be heard over the legitimacy of the disputed 2.3bn euros loans.

But in the meantime the Quinns are legally bound to honour the court rulings.

If, ultimately, the 2.3bn euros is ruled illegal and unenforceable then they will be due compensation.

Supporters say this must be determined first, and it is right to hide assets in the meantime.

They say the actions taken to date are an attempt to bankrupt the Quinn family so they can't fight that other case.

But it is contradictory to ignore current court orders on the basis that you believe a future court decision will go your way. That suggests you only obey the law when it obeys you. It also ignores the undisputed 455m euros of debt the family have always agreed is owed.

Judge Elizabeth Dunne summarised this key argument in her contempt judgement: "Instead of trying to repay the admitted debt due, the Quinn family and in particular the respondents have taken every step possible to make it as difficult as can be to recover any amount due.

"They have engaged in a complex, complicated and, no doubt, costly, series of steps designed to put the assets of the IPG (International Property Group) beyond the reach of Anglo, in a blatant, dishonest and deceitful manner.

"They have consciously misled courts here and elsewhere. They have sought to deprive Anglo of the assets which would go some way to discharging an admitted indebtedness.

"The behaviour of the respondents outlined in evidence before me is as far as removed from the concept of honour and respectability as it is possible to be."

I'd appreciate if Ramshackled or another Quinn supporter could dispute these points and present their version of the facts.....

an offshore entity

THE END GAME



Q. Who is responsible for the debts of the Quinn Group?
a) Financial Regulator
b) Anglo Irish Bank
c) Quinn Group
d) All of the above

Answer: d) All of the above

Hotblack Desiato

Only one of them borrowed money so only one of them has a debt. It's really not hard to understand.

an offshore entity

ninja900 wrote: »

Only one of them borrowed money so only one of them has a debt. It's really not hard to understand.

Therefore in your contrarian view, Anglo Irish Bank did not engage in reckless banking and that the regulations in place were adequate. Interesting...

It does not matter whether you refer to the Quinn case or any other case. The fact of the matter is that all three; The Regulator, Anglo Irish Bank and Borrower are responsible. It is a systemic problem, as shown by the chain diagram.

Celeb

vanillavanilla wrote: »

anyone else wondering who "Ramshackled" is? 9 posts, most of them in defence of the family Quinns.:D

Not until you mentioned it, but then it makes you think about the people defending Anglo Irish - these people are obviously paid employee's of Anglo Irish or are in some way related to their idol David Drumm... because that's the only thing that would make any sense.

Hotblack Desiato

an offshore entity wrote: »

Therefore in your contrarian view, Anglo Irish Bank did not engage in reckless banking and that the regulations in place were adequate. Interesting...

You're just building a strawman.

It does not matter whether you refer to the Quinn case or any other case. The fact of the matter is that all three; The Regulator, Anglo Irish Bank and Borrower are responsible. It is a systemic problem, as shown by the chain diagram.

All three should have behaved differently, but that does not make debts magically disappear.

The actions of Anglo are currently being dealt with in the criminal courts, perhaps that would suit Sean Quinn better - he doesn't take civil courts seriously.

Ramshackled

Laminations wrote: »

Very good account, and a must read for Quinn supporters. It dismantles most of the untruths they spout.

What are the facts in the Sean Quinn case?


Here are some key facts:

Sean Quinn didn't invest in Anglo Irish Bank, he bet on it
If all he'd done was buy shares, his losses would have been limited.

But Sean Quinn chose a dangerous financial instrument called Contracts for Difference (CFDs) to build up a 25% stake in Anglo Irish Bank.

It was a leveraged bet on the share price - if it his bet had come good, he would have made billions, but because it went bad he lost more than five times his initial huge stake.

He literally bet the bank and both bank and Quinn went down. His losses totalled more than 3.2bn euros at the end, with Anglo on the hook for 2.8bn euros.

Anglo didn't encourage Sean Quinn money to build this stake
Anglo Irish Bank was horrified when it discovered the scale of Sean Quinn's stake because they knew they could both go down if the full story was public.

It was a fatal embrace. The reason some directors of Anglo now face criminal charges is because of money lent to unwind and offload Sean Quinn's bet.

Even Sean Quinn has never publicly suggested that Anglo wanted him to build a 25% stake through CFDs in the bank.

Sean Quinn broke the law before the bank moved in
Sean Quinn was removed from his insurance business by the regulator because he had broken the law.

He had used funds from his insurance business to prop up other parts of the group. It was a serious offence.

The regulator eventually put the entire business into administration because he found the Quinn management were still breaking the rules and there was a massive black hole in the finances. This happened a year before Anglo moved to take control of the rest of the empire.

Sean Quinn now accepts that the actions of the regulator were "right and proper".

Meanwhile all insurance policies in the Republic are now subject to a 2% levy indefinitely to fill the financial hole found in Quinn Insurance.

The family had no viable plan to pay back the money
Once the insurance business was taken from family control, their offer to repay the 2.8 billion euros owed went up in smoke.

The fact that their plan relied upon cash from the insurance arm was not reassuring to a regulator who'd found that they had repeatedly broken the rules not to use money from the regulated business to support the rest of the group.

On 7 March 2011 (one month before Anglo took over the rest of the group) the family's lawyers stated clearly in a letter to Anglo that their offer to repay "was made solely in the context of our clients retaining economic control of Quinn Insurance".

The regulator had already ruled that out, it was not a matter within Anglo's control.

The family did promise to honour loans of 455m euros
In that same letter to Anglo (obtained from Swedish court archives during my investigation for BBC Spotlight) the family's lawyers state: "Your client is aware that 455m euros of loans related to our clients' investments in their international property portfolio (IPP).

"These loans are performing and our clients have met the interest schedules on them, as clearly demonstrated by a review of the attached schedule."

The attached information is headed "Schedule of Valid Property Loans from Anglo Irish Bank Corporation Limited".

Sean Quinn didn't just "frustrate" the bank
The reason Sean Quinn, his son and nephew, are guilty of contempt is because they took actions to interfere with the business and shift assets after Anglo had taken control last April and in breach of specific court injunctions obtained in June.

These actions include Sean Quinn falsifying documents in July (three months after he was ousted) to take control of a Moscow office block worth 180m euros and put it into an offshore company in Belize.

He falsified the documents to make it look like it was done while he was still in charge, but in fact he was a bogus director using fake documents to move very real and valuable assets beyond the reach of the taxpayer-owned bank.

Far from going to court and owning up to this course of action, as Sean Quinn has recently suggested he did, he denied all this in court.

He merely admitted taking steps to frustrate the bank while he was still in charge of the company. The judge didn't believe him.

Sean Quinn isn't defying Anglo alone
He's defying the Irish courts.

It is the courts - not Anglo - that have found him in contempt.

Judge Kelly described the scheme he authorised as one of "mesmeric complexity" that "reeked of dishonesty and sharp practice". It is the courts that have ruled that the debt must be honoured.

The legitimacy of the disputed loans will be determined
There is a case that will be heard over the legitimacy of the disputed 2.3bn euros loans.

But in the meantime the Quinns are legally bound to honour the court rulings.

If, ultimately, the 2.3bn euros is ruled illegal and unenforceable then they will be due compensation.

Supporters say this must be determined first, and it is right to hide assets in the meantime.

They say the actions taken to date are an attempt to bankrupt the Quinn family so they can't fight that other case.

But it is contradictory to ignore current court orders on the basis that you believe a future court decision will go your way. That suggests you only obey the law when it obeys you. It also ignores the undisputed 455m euros of debt the family have always agreed is owed.

Judge Elizabeth Dunne summarised this key argument in her contempt judgement: "Instead of trying to repay the admitted debt due, the Quinn family and in particular the respondents have taken every step possible to make it as difficult as can be to recover any amount due.

"They have engaged in a complex, complicated and, no doubt, costly, series of steps designed to put the assets of the IPG (International Property Group) beyond the reach of Anglo, in a blatant, dishonest and deceitful manner.

"They have consciously misled courts here and elsewhere. They have sought to deprive Anglo of the assets which would go some way to discharging an admitted indebtedness.

"The behaviour of the respondents outlined in evidence before me is as far as removed from the concept of honour and respectability as it is possible to be."

I'd appreciate if Ramshackled or another Quinn supporter could dispute these points and present their version of the facts.....

Its hard to argue with that if those statements are in fact true although the article does not give much detail on where the writer got his information.

I will be completely open about this, my whole arguement is based on the assumption that Anglo persuaded Sean Quinn to invest in them to prop up the bank. I believed this because thats what they did with the government for sure but the evidence is now stacking up that it was in fact Sean Quinn that did it mostly off his own bat and his personal silence/ ambiguous statements on this point is a worrying indication that this is in fact true. I am still reserving judgement on this though, until it is actually ruled on in court (will probably never happen) or Sean Quinn makes a public step by step statement on what happened from his perspective., then I can make a call.

even despite this point, I still maintain though that his actions were not solely based on greed, I think his actions had some merit given what information he had at the time and he just didnt fully realise the consequences of his actions if the deal went wrong. At the time when he bought these CFDs he would not have anticipated that the Irish taxpayer would be left footing the bill.

Even with no involvement from Sean Quinn, Anglo would have gone to the wall as it was over-exposed to a rapidly shrinking property market so blame cannot be left solely with with him, as "an offshore entity" has pointed out, it was the entire system at fault.

one thing that is still puzzling me though is how the cost of the administration of quinn-direct is so high, since the administrators took over, the cost has gone up and up and blaming Sean Quinn for the continous estimations upwards is wearing a bit thin at this stage.

Why is there no accountablility for the administrators?


btw.. I have no connection with Sean Quinn whatsoever except from getting the shift in the slieve russell hotel at a youth disco when I was 12.. (not from Sean Quinn though)

Laminations

Ramshackled wrote: »

Even with no involvement from Sean Quinn, Anglo would have gone to the wall as it was over-exposed to a rapidly shrinking property market so blame cannot be left solely with with him, as "an offshore entity" has pointed out, it was the entire system at fault.

one thing that is still puzzling me though is how the cost of the administration of quinn-direct is so high, since the administrators took over, the cost has gone up and up and blaming Sean Quinn for the continous estimations upwards is wearing a bit thin at this stage.

Who is solely blaming Sean Quinn?? Youll find numerous threads on Anglo execs here and many comments by me and others. Also again, in case you missed it, there is a lengthy investigation into Anglo woth criminal prosecutions emerging now. Case will be heard in october. They are being held accountable. What more do you want? Quinn bet on the CFD market. It was a bad bet. He bankrupted himself. Whatever about the 2.3bn the reason he is possibly facing jail and the reason his son is in there is contempt. He agreed to pay back 455m and has not done so. Do the comments from the judges bot register with you? A scheme of mesmeric complexity, deceitful, dishonest, the worst case seen in the commercial court under Peter Kelly... and you reserve judgement. While at the same time point to Sean Fitzpatrick because you are sure he is guilty. Dont get me wrong, im sure too but can we expect Fitzpatrick supporters to all point back at Quinn or maybe to Fingleton? Or Cowen? One at a time.

You really need to get Anglo out of your head. Quinn in defying the Irish courts and taxpayer now.

But I'll play along - yes i agree Anglo was inevitably going to collapse. Odd you can see that but can't see the same with Quinn insurance and it's black hole. The regulator acted swiftly because the Quinns were in such serious breach of regulations. The black hole was a future calamity waiting to happen. They undersold in the UK market and didn't have enough reserves to cover claims. Claims take longer to process and pay out than policies take to sell. So they sold cheap up front for quick cash and market share and now the chickens (or claims) are coming home to roost exposing the extent of the black hole. Your focus on the administrators really misunderstands the seriousness of Quinns offence.

Laminations

an offshore entity wrote: »

Therefore in your contrarian view, Anglo Irish Bank did not engage in reckless banking and that the regulations in place were adequate. Interesting...

It does not matter whether you refer to the Quinn case or any other case. The fact of the matter is that all three; The Regulator, Anglo Irish Bank and Borrower are responsible. It is a systemic problem, as shown by the chain diagram.

What? What's your point? All are guilty so none are guilty? All are guilty so none can be held accountable? Quinn owes monies that are undisputed (455m) and that he has said he'll repay. He has breached court orders relating to this and is in contempt of court. He and family are frustrating the irish courts and stiffing the irish tax payer. Anglo is being dealt with in terms of their lending practices and share price manipulations - something that happened after they discovered the Quinns had destabilised them having purchased 25%. Let's leave the regulator out because what went on with Quinn and Anglo went beyond breach of regulations. What could the regulator have done to stop Quinn buying up Anglo on the CFD market?

In your opinion what should happen to the Quinns? What should they have to pay back and how should their contempt be dealt with? Your flow diagram and MCQ us not an argument. You need to actually state the actions of Anglo and regulator that you think limit the liability of the Quinns.

Laminations

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2012/0801/1224321234998.html

http://gombeennation.blogspot.ie/2012/07/Sean-Quinn-Cavan-Ballyconnell-rally-attacts-church-and-GAA-figures-support.html?m=1

Two more good pieces for supporters to digest...and then promptly ignore, misunderstand or revise to there own more cognitively comforting consonant version,

jonniebgood1

Laminations wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2012/0801/1224321234998.html

http://gombeennation.blogspot.ie/2012/07/Sean-Quinn-Cavan-Ballyconnell-rally-attacts-church-and-GAA-figures-support.html?m=1

Two more good pieces for supporters to digest...and then promptly ignore, misunderstand or revise to there own more cognitively comforting consonant version,

If thats what qualifies as 'good pieces' in this saga/ story then its no wonder people on this thread and others are towing the line so consistently. I'm not a fan of Quinn nor have any links but people are not looking objectively at this. To call a piece of journalism good, that refers to one side of the argument as 'gob****es' is about the level that this discussion has reached.

Laminations

jonniebgood1 wrote: »

If thats what qualifies as 'good pieces' in this saga/ story then its no wonder people on this thread and others are towing the line so consistently. I'm not a fan of Quinn nor have any links but people are not looking objectively at this. To call a piece of journalism good, that refers to one side of the argument as 'gob****es' is about the level that this discussion has reached.

Towing what line?

And they quite clearly are gob****es. They have no coherent argument, they have little grasp of the details, they have little understanding of the consequences of Quinns lack of cooperation, and they have a warped sense of victim hood and opposition to sone mythical persecuting Dublin meeja.those 5000 people who turned out in support of a bankrupt debt defaulter are as much gob****es as any person who supports a blatant law breaker. Should journalists (which the writer of that blog piece is not) massage their egos by referring to them as smart folk in the name of balance??

jonniebgood1

Laminations wrote: »

Towing what line?

And they quite clearly are gob****es. They have no coherent argument, they have little grasp of the details, they have little understanding of the consequences of Quinns lack of cooperation, and they have a warped sense of victim hood and opposition to sone mythical persecuting Dublin meeja.those 5000 people who turned out in support of a bankrupt debt defaulter are as much gob****es as any person who supports a blatant law breaker. Should journalists (which the writer of that blog piece is not) massage their egos by referring to them as smart folk in the name of balance??

All this shows is that you are not listening to both sides of the argument. Not one coherent referral to any point made by the Quinn side, what are you arguing? Laughable.

Sponge Bob

I'm entirely with Laminations. I still hope these grubby Quinns make good on Daddys ( and son in laws) €2bn odd gambling debts which essentially lost the family their entire fortune but I see no sign of them ever doing so.

Laminations

jonniebgood1 wrote: »

All this shows is that you are not listening to both sides of the argument. Not one coherent referral to any point made by the Quinn side, what are you arguing? Laughable.

The points made by the Quinn side are bogus and have been dismantled throughout the thread - see the BBC article - there is no other side of the argument, all there is has been pointing to Anglo and saying 'but they're really bad guys', and a failure to recognise that no one disputes that, no one is solely blaming Quinn and there are separate investigations into the behaviour of Anglo execs. All irrelevant to the totally legal and accepted debt of 455m.

So lay out the coherent argument from the other side. I imagine it'll be a repeat of Sean Quinns performance on VB which was a trail of mistruths and ignorance.

Laminations

PS I've no problem with people in Cavan or anywhere else supporting the family, but in this case what you and others like Fr Brian D'Arcy fail to realise is that support should not be 'fair play for not paying, we support you in your contempt of court and 2 fingers to the Irish people'.

If you want to support them reach in your pockets and help them pay their debts. That's true community support, what's currently on display is deference, indebtedness and idol worship

Sponge Bob

West Cavan has never seen the likes of Seán Quinn before and West Cavan realises they never ever will see the likes of Seán Quinn again. It all reads like a Cavan version of Ozymandias with Ballyconnell as a sort of Imperial Court TBH.

They may be forgiven their local rally for that reason but don't expect any sympathy in North East Galway or South West Tipp or in West Wexford and in South Wicklow...m'kay.

Sponge Bob

Just noticed some intemperate language in the Dublin Media today. The facts are fine...the Dublin vs Rural Ireland spin is entirely off colour.

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/john-drennan/john-drennan-rogues-like-quinn-arent-one-of-our-own-3189918.html

the aged patriarch Sean Quinn amidst the cheers of his peasant retinue

and

back down in Dukes of Hazard country some no-mark MP, who was ironically also considered by the SF hierarchy for a tilt at 'the Park', issued soothing noises for the benefit of the locals.

And if rural yahooery is the problem what about the city slickers who bankrolled €2bn of downright gambling on their own shares and the urban vermin who audited all this and thereby encouraged shareholders to buy more shares.....never mind the Dubs who underwrote the whole escapade with a 'guarantee' after the money was blown???

The journo half redeems himself later on but only has himself to blame if nobody in Cavan ever buys that mucksavage Indo .....ever again.

Mr.Micro

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Just noticed some intemperate language in the Dublin Media today. The facts are fine...the Dublin vs Rural Ireland spin is entirely off colour.

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/john-drennan/john-drennan-rogues-like-quinn-arent-one-of-our-own-3189918.html



And if rural yahooery is the problem what about the city slickers who bankrolled €2bn of downright gambling on their own shares and the urban vermin who audited all this and thereby encouraged shareholders to buy more shares.....never mind the Dubs who underwrote the whole escapade with a 'guarantee' after the money was blown???

The journo half redeems himself later on but only has himself to blame if nobody in Cavan ever buys that mucksavage Indo .....ever again.

The irony of all this is that the people who support the Quinns and have still jobs in the companies set up by Quinn, would not probably have a job now, if Quinn had been left to his devices. Instead they should be thanking the state and central bank for putting matters in the hands of administrators etc. The way Quinn was operating his insurance company was reprehensible and would have ended in disaster. Its the taxpayer who should be thanked for those, lucky to still have a job, not the Quinns who recklessly gambled and lost. The Irish love the guy who causes all the trouble, like Ahern, Haughey, Lowry and others. Its so embarrassing that such a culture appears embedded in the Irish psyche.

Laminations

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Just noticed some intemperate language in the Dublin Media today. The facts are fine...the Dublin vs Rural Ireland spin is entirely off colour.

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/john-drennan/john-drennan-rogues-like-quinn-arent-one-of-our-own-3189918.html

I don't see it as Dublin vs rural spin. The descriptions aren't aimed at rural people, they are aimed at Quinn supporters (who happen to be rural). And their support for Quinn makes the descriptions apt. Reminds me of a Jack Reacher novel 'Nothing to Lose' where he visits the 'company town' of Despair where all the locals are loyal work fodder for the metal recycling plant boss (the only employer in town).

And if rural yahooery is the problem what about the city slickers who bankrolled €2bn of downright gambling on their own shares and the urban vermin who audited all this and thereby encouraged shareholders to buy more shares.....never mind the Dubs who underwrote the whole escapade with a 'guarantee' after the money was blown???

The journo half redeems himself later on but only has himself to blame if nobody in Cavan ever buys that mucksavage Indo .....ever again.

You really are missing the point. If the yokels of Dublin South want to rally in support of Seanie Fitz then I'd imagine they'd be vilified in the media (Dublin meeja incuded). I'd describe them as gob****es...in fact I think I took the pee out of those eejits that thought it appropriate to rally in support of that Kiliney couple who were evicted from their million quid home for taking liberties with their mortgage payments.

Ill take anyone to task if they try and defend the indefensible with ignorance and mistruths. And please stop with the 'what about Anglo?', it's not a Defense of Quinn to point towards other indefensibles. No one is holding rallies in support of Anglo so it's not a problem, the problem here is that the Quinn family and their supporters are disputing their liabilities, and not using any coherent argument to boot

mdoyler2

-none of the assets that the 445m relate to have been moved nor as any attempt been made by the Quinn family  to move them, the dispute relates to the 2.3bn of share support loans;
-Anglo along with falsifying its accounts, falsified its loan docs; the loans docs could hardly state 'margin call', so the Anglo management put the loans down as 'property', hence the worldwide dispute over the properties;
-  you state none of the arguments of the Quinn's stand up, Judge Charleton would disagree considering the Quinn's won the preliminary issues case last Feb;
- the recent cases involving Justice Dunne and Kelly only relate to actions taken since June 2011.  Yes, June 2011!!!! Not the reckless actions of Anglo in 2007/2008 (and earlier) cause Anglo are doing their hardest to ensure the Main Quinn case is not heard, WHY?
-well firstly, Anglo don't have a leg to stand on, they breached both the companies acts S60 and the EU Market Abuse Regulations by propping up their own share price.  The consequences of this not only makes the loans unenforceable, but it opens the bank up to massive litigation from other investors and bond holders;
Let's not forget the Quinn family could have sued Anglo in 2008, 2009 or 2010 for blatantly falsifying it's accounts; however they tried to work with the bank to ensure the taxpayer would not suffer any losses. It's only when they knew Anglo were trying to enforce blatant fraudulent security that they moved;
- furthermore, the Quinn family never borrowed a cent from the taxpayer, it was the government and central bank that decided to make Anglos losses the taxpayers losses, this is regarded as the worst decision in the history of the state. The Quinn family had absolutely nothing to do with that decision. 
Now that the state owns Anglo, they are trying to spin the attention away from Anglo onto others, ie Quinn. BTW In it's latest accounts Anglo spent 5.4m on wages and professional fees A WEEK (almost 300m for the year) that's real taxpayers money;
- finally I read the Quinn's are allowed to spend 30k of their own money a month between 10 adults (avg 3k a month). But the media forget that Mike Anysley is on about 80k a month!!!! again that's real taxpayers money.

Laminations

Face palm...

Let's deal with that post in the morning...can you provide some links/sources before then? Even for your first point that the current contempt cases have nothing to do with the 455m undisputed debt and the moving of assets related to that debt.

But it looks like some good news. Possibility that the PSNI/gardai will be dragging Peter Darragh Quinn back by his dishonest, deceitful, perjuring furlocks to face the music

A criminal charge is a possibility

The poll results also make interesting reading on the gullibility of certain people.

mdoyler2

Laminations wrote: »

Face palm...

Let's deal with that post in the morning...can you provide some links/sources before then?

Of course;
-please see below a link to an article, where Sean Quinn states exactly what assets the 445m debt relates to i.e it does not relate to any assets moved, quote  "for the avoidance of any doubt, the family have not tried to dissipate any assets the legitimate borrowings are secured on"
- please see the below link to Charleton Judgement, pretty damming for Anglo.  It's a bit long winded, if you read the conclusion you will get the point;
- I find it incredible that people are believing Anglo, an institution that has misled it's shareholders, borrowers and the Investment community for years, under the watchful eye of the Government and DoF. Now that the Government are in control of Anglo they are trying to sweep Anglos wrong doings under the carpet in order hide its skeletons.  
The Chairman of Anglo is a life long politician, enough said!

Also, do you not find it hypocritical that the DDP are charging Anglo executives over the same 'loans' Anglo are relying on for Quinn case!!!


Charleton 
http://www.courts.ie/Judgments.nsf/09859e7a3f34669680256ef3004a27de/fa2a29179a646d95802579b800568ceb?OpenDocument

Daily mail
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2177141/Anglo-treated-like-dogs--family-fought-Se-n-Quinn-sets-family-defied-High-Court-orders-assets.html

jonniebgood1

Laminations wrote: »

The points made by the Quinn side are bogus and have been dismantled throughout the thread - see the BBC article - there is no other side of the argument

This would explain why you do not understand the 'other' side of the argument! Surely actually recognising that there are 2 sides to every story is the starting point to comprehending the story here. And all based on a BBC article (which also fails to deal rationally with this)- maybe the BBC can write us a way out of recession....

Laminations

jonniebgood1 wrote: »

This would explain why you do not understand the 'other' side of the argument! Surely actually recognising that there are 2 sides to every story is the starting point to comprehending the story here. And all based on a BBC article (which also fails to deal rationally with this)- maybe the BBC can write us a way out of recession....

Yes two sides of a story. And the storytellers go to court and present evidence for their side of the story. The court concludes that one side is deceitful dishonest and contemptuous. The court makes a determination and there no longer is two sides of the story. 85% of the country don't believe Quinn, even though he is at pains to frame this as a Dublin v rural thing.

If Quinns 'side' is summarised in this next post, it's not really a serious account now...

mdoyler2 wrote: »

Of course;
-please see below a link to an article, where Sean Quinn states exactly what assets the 445m debt relates to i.e it does not relate to any assets moved, quote  "for the avoidance of any doubt, the family have not tried to dissipate any assets the legitimate borrowings are secured on"

So your evidence is a link to something Sean Quinn has said even though we've had a court ruling that his account is dishonest and he and his family have been moving assets related to the 455m? Why do you believe his account after he had a chance to substantiate it with evidence in court and failed to do so? 85% of people do not believe him.

- please see the below link to Charleton Judgement, pretty damming for Anglo.  It's a bit long winded, if you read the conclusion you will get the point;

There will be a court case to determine the legality and liability around the 2.3bn. I've never disputed that Anglo execs were a bunch a crooks. That said, it doesn't entitle Quinn to free money, and AFAIK the illegal lending is related to the golden circle who were drafted in to stabilise the share price after it was discover Quinn was playing big boy on the CFD market.

- I find it incredible that people are believing Anglo, an institution that has misled it's shareholders, borrowers and the Investment community for years, under the watchful eye of the Government and DoF. Now that the Government are in control of Anglo they are trying to sweep Anglos wrong doings under the carpet in order hide its skeletons.  
The Chairman of Anglo is a life long politician, enough said!

Ad hominem. What in Alan Dukes political career leads you to call his integrity into question? Anglo aren't an animate autonomous entity. It was the people in Anglo (Fitzpatrick ,Drumm etc) who engaged in dodgy banking. I don't believe 'Anglo', I believe the courts who have assessed the evidence provided by the IBRC.

Also, do you not find it hypocritical that the DDP are charging Anglo executives over the same 'loans' Anglo are relying on for Quinn case!!!

The loans at the centre of the criminal charges relate to the golden circle /maple ten. I find it hypocritical that you claim unfair unequal treatment when the Anglo execs have also been bankrupted and now face criminal charges while Quinn avoids jail, is giving chance after chance to cooperate and his nephew swans around the north thinking a jail sentence is a choice, one that doesn't suit him.

Your argument is not coherent. It's a 'well eh I believe Sean Quinn cos he said so and Anglo are bad'

Laminations

Laminations wrote: »

Your argument is not coherent. It's a 'well eh I believe Sean Quinn cos he said so and Anglo are bad'

Fontana O'Toole sums up your attitude quite well in the IT today

Bold is added

Very significant numbers of decent, respectable Irish people – not a majority but not a tiny minority either – are in literal contempt of the courts. They really don’t give a damn what the courts find – if those findings come into conflict with their own deeper loyalties. They know that two separate High Court judges – Judge Dunne and Judge Kelly, both used to dealing with very bad stuff – have used language of rare vehemence about the actions of the Quinns in stripping €455 million worth of assets from public ownership: “dishonesty and sharp practice”, “blatant, dishonest and deceitful”, “as far removed from the concept of honour and respectability as it is possible to be”. Some idiots among them truly believe that the judges are part of a giant conspiracy against the Quinns. Most know damn well that this is nonsense, but they simply don’t care.

Nor do these decent, respectable people believe that there is a common good that operates at the level of the State and that could possibly outweigh an almost feudal loyalty to a local hero. The State, for them, is a vague, hazy and distant thing – too nebulous to command any real fidelity. The idea that encouraging the Quinns to siphon off €455 million of public assets might harm their fellow citizens has no meaning for them because, deep down, they don’t actually believe that there are such creatures as fellow citizens. There are good GAA people, good Cavan people, good Fermanagh people – those are the “imagined communities” that command respect and allegiance. A larger citizenship signifies nothing. The people who might be harmed by the Quinns’ actions are not Us but Them.

mdoyler2

Laminations wrote: »

-There was no court ruling that the QF moved assets relating to the 445m; there was a ruling that the they breached an injunction but it didn't relate to any of the assets the 445m was secured on;
- you state Quinn should not be given 'free money', thats the crux of the case as due to the illegal loans Anglo are currently in possession of assets that they shouldn't be.  If the loans are illegal they are invalid and any security given falls away;
- in relation to the CfD lending; No other bank in world would have done what Anglo done, they lent 2.3bn to prop up there own share price, at a time when they knew the bank was in a bad state, yet they where fudging their accounts to make it look like everything was ok,  if Quinn knew the true position of the bank, such as the L&P deposits, do you not think he would have closed his CfD position out, thus collapsing the bank; 
-There is a much bigger issue here, I don't believe Quinn is saying he is innocent; what is saying is there is a cover up and truth has not been told; and I believe him.  The DoF / Anglo moved on loans they knew where fraudulent.  They are now hell bent on ensuring the main action does not run.
-on Dukes, a politician should not be running a bank, end of.  He will make decisions that will suit his party rather than the taxpayer.  
-it wasn't only Drumm and Fitz that engaged in reckless lending, some of the lending directors have been working in Anglo up until a few months ago, such as Michael O'Sullivan.  Hence the cover up;
-I would believe Sean Quinn over a politician any day of the week, it's over 4 years ago and we still have not been told the truth; finally Quinn is starting to talk.
-think about it, if the bank hadn't been nationalised and the Guarantee not be given, I.e if  Anglo  was allowed to fail (it's generally accepted now that it should have happened) who's side would you be on, the fraudulent bank or the investor who lost his shirt???

Laminations

mdoyler2 wrote: »

-There was no court ruling that the QF moved assets relating to the 445m; there was a ruling that the they breached an injunction but it didn't relate to any of the assets the 445m was secured on;
- you state Quinn should not be given 'free money', thats the crux of the case as due to the illegal loans Anglo are currently in possession of assets that they shouldn't be.  If the loans are illegal they are invalid and any security given falls away;
- in relation to the CfD lending; No other bank in world would have done what Anglo done, they lent 2.3bn to prop up there own share price, at a time when they knew the bank was in a bad state, yet they where fudging their accounts to make it look like everything was ok,  if Quinn knew the true position of the bank, such as the L&P deposits, do you not think he would have closed his CfD position out, thus collapsing the bank; 
-There is a much bigger issue here, I don't believe Quinn is saying he is innocent; what is saying is there is a cover up and truth has not been told; and I believe him.  The DoF / Anglo moved on loans they knew where fraudulent.  They are now hell bent on ensuring the main action does not run.
-on Dukes, a politician should not be running a bank, end of.  He will make decisions that will suit his party rather than the taxpayer.  
-it wasn't only Drumm and Fitz that engaged in reckless lending, some of the lending directors have been working in Anglo up until a few months ago, such as Michael O'Sullivan.  Hence the cover up;
-I would believe Sean Quinn over a politician any day of the week, it's over 4 years ago and we still have not been told the truth; finally Quinn is starting to talk.
-think about it, if the bank hadn't been nationalised and the Guarantee not be given, I.e if  Anglo  was allowed to fail (it's generally accepted now that it should have happened) who's side would you be on, the fraudulent bank or the investor who lost his shirt???

The choice isn't between believing Quinn or 'a politician' - its between believing Quinn or the courts, Quinn and the judges, Quinn and the law.

I should've put this part of FO'Ts article in bold

'Some idiots among them truly believe that the judges are part of a giant conspiracy against the Quinns'

Do you dispute they owe 455m? If the assets being moved were not related to this debt, what assets do relate to it? All reporting suggests the recent court case and contempt judgements relates to this loan and not the disputed 2.3bn.

Dukes serves as public interest director, he is not in charge of the bank/IBRC and your point about serving his party makes no sense - he was appointed by FF ;Brian Lenuhan) and is no longer involved in FG political party. The CEO is Mike Aynsley.

Mike Aynsley is the Group Chief Executive Officer with Irish Bank Resolution Corporation Limited (formerly the Anglo Irish Bank Corporation). Boasting 30 years of professional experience with some of the largest banking and financial-service firms in the world, Mr. Aynsley was hired by the Irish government in September of 2009.

Since then, he has led a full review, restructuring and reorganizing the group and making changes to strengthen the bank and benefit shareholders.

But none of that matters to you. You cant think past Quinn = good, Anglo = bad.

jonniebgood1

Laminations wrote: »

Yes two sides of a story. And the storytellers go to court and present evidence for their side of the story. The court concludes that one side is deceitful dishonest and contemptuous. The court makes a determination and there no longer is two sides of the story. 85% of the country don't believe Quinn, even though he is at pains to frame this as a Dublin v rural thing.

Is there not a court case outstanding on the majority of the money owed?

(there is)

Do you understand that if the court finds in Quinns favour on the case over the majority of the monies that it will give cause to some of his actions (I recognise the difference between cause and justification).

So- Is there not a court case outstanding on the majority of the money owed?

Laminations

jonniebgood1 wrote: »

Is there not a court case outstanding on the majority of the money owed?

(there is)

Do you understand that if the court finds in Quinns favour on the case over the majority of the monies that it will give cause to some of his actions (I recognise the difference between cause and justification).

So- Is there not a court case outstanding on the majority of the money owed?

IRRELEVANT!

I'm struggling to see your point. Is it that because there are disputed debts that the Quinns can do what they like in relation to the undisputed debts - including non-cooperation, movement of assets, perjury? The contempt charges relate to assets underpinning the loans for 455m, the courts have found the behaviour of the Quinns to be dishonest, deceitful and contemptuous. The people of Ballyconnel are supporting them in engaging in this behaviour relating to that loan. Other loans are irrelevant.

mdoyler2

Laminations wrote: »

[
The choice isn't between believing Quinn or 'a politician' - its between believing Quinn or the courts, Quinn and the judges, Quinn and the law.

I should've put this part of FO'Ts article in bold

'Some idiots among them truly believe that the judges are part of a giant conspiracy against the Quinns'

Do you dispute they owe 455m? If the assets being moved were not related to this debt, what assets do relate to it? All reporting suggests the recent court case and contempt judgements relates to this loan and not the disputed 2.3bn.

Dukes serves as public interest director, he is not in charge of the bank/IBRC and your point about serving his party makes no sense - he was appointed by FF ;Brian Lenuhan) and is no longer involved in FG political party. The CEO is Mike Aynsley.

-the 445m relates to the Hilton in Prague, the IBIS in Prague, the Slieve Russell, the Leonardo in Kiev, the Holiday Inn in Nottingham, Buswells in Dublin as well as a number of pubs in Dublin. NONE of these assets have been dissipated by the QF, they are all under the control of Anglo. The assets in dispute are in Russia, India and another asset in Kiev - Anglo never lent for or to these companies. They fudged them loan docs to disguise they where lending to prop up its own share price, a clear breach of S60 of the CA and it artificially inflated the price of the banks share price, in breach of Market Abuse Regulations.

- I couldn't care what FOT says, he doesn't have a clue; like many others in the media;

-The Courts can only believe and rule on, on the information they are provided with; , for example the Justice Kelly case, this was Case was solely about the appointment of a Receiver over the QF, not about moving assets, the application was uncontested by the QF. Therefore Anglo spent 2days in the high court arguing a one sided debate. There was no need to spent 2mins there as the Quinns had already consented. Therefore Anglo spent appox 250k for pure PR reasons: Kelly only heard Anglos side. He had no choice but to lay into the Quinns.

- Dukes is the Chairman of Anglo, he met Quinn on the 14 of April 2011, he is running the show. He may no longer be involved in FG on paper, but he is a life long supporter and politican and I wouldn't trust a word he says.

I think you are missing the point, Anglo broke the law S60 and Market Abuse regulations, the current government are hell bent on covering it up.

jonniebgood1

Laminations wrote: »

IRRELEVANT!

I'm struggling to see your point. Is it that because there are disputed debts that the Quinns can do what they like in relation to the undisputed debts - including non-cooperation, movement of assets, perjury? The contempt charges relate to assets underpinning the loans for 455m, the courts have found the behaviour of the Quinns to be dishonest, deceitful and contemptuous. The people of Ballyconnel are supporting them in engaging in this behaviour relating to that loan. Other loans are irrelevant.

Firstly- its not my point, its been expressed by many on the Quinn side- my point is there are 2 sides to the story.
Secondly- its not irrelevant, its what Quinn has based his actions on. If you actually listened to both sides of the argument you would have realised that. Shouting that it is 'IRRELEVANT' reflects the level of your understanding of the conflicting sides of this debacle. You should step back and objectively consider whether a decision on that case is relevant or linked.

Shea O'Meara

Does the Independent have a city edition, like the Herald? That would explain any perceived bias either way. Different version for different audience.

Also, everybody, including Quinn, are agreed on the facts of the case. That's one side. The only thing being debated, although I can't see any reason why, is should he be held to account. He believes not. Rich people don't believe in the laws of the little folk when it comes to their millions.