Anti-social behaviour question?

hawkelady

Hi all,
maybe someone can enlighten me on this issue, a tenant has had an anti social behaviour complaint last saturday night at an apartment complex, she was getting out of a taxi and she was being loud and boisterious to her friends who were still in the taxi.Taxi drove off so the noise lasted two minutes at most, one of her neighbours rang the management company to complain.. im aware the tenent and her neighbour do not get on with each other. anyway, the landlord recieved an invoice from the managemnt company today requesting 250 euro as a fine for the noise.
Can the management company enforce this fine and the landlord is at a loss as the management company never contacted him about it etc, I believe the landlord contacted the tenent when the fine arrived and the above story was relayed to him.The tenant is insistant that she is not paying it as it was a non issue and surely the landlord shouldnt pick it up,
The tenant would like to know if it was the neighbour that she dosent get on with who complained but the management company wont say who, understandable ,I suppose but it got me thinking that this is an easy way for management companies to make extra money.
What will happen if the fine just isnt paid????

omega666

hawkelady wrote: »

Hi all,
maybe someone can enlighten me on this issue, a tenant has had an anti social behaviour complaint last saturday night at an apartment complex, she was getting out of a taxi and she was being loud and boisterious to her friends who were still in the taxi.Taxi drove off so the noise lasted two minutes at most, one of her neighbours rang the management company to complain.. im aware the tenent and her neighbour do not get on with each other. anyway, the landlord recieved an invoice from the managemnt company today requesting 250 euro as a fine for the noise.
Can the management company enforce this fine and the landlord is at a loss as the management company never contacted him about it etc, I believe the landlord contacted the tenent when the fine arrived and the above story was relayed to him.The tenant is insistant that she is not paying it as it was a non issue and surely the landlord shouldnt pick it up,
The tenant would like to know if it was the neighbour that she dosent get on with who complained but the management company wont say who, understandable ,I suppose but it got me thinking that this is an easy way for management companies to make extra money.
What will happen if the fine just isnt paid????

a 250 euro fine haha
Ask them to provide you with the proof of this incident and then rip up the invoice and put it in thier letter box.

hawkelady

Cheers for that.
Is it common for management companies to issue large fines like that and can they legally collect it? Its just strange that if you have a neighbour who wants to cause divilment all it takes is a call to the management company, the landlord just told me now that a couple of neighbours complained about his tenant for having a house party but that was 14 months ago and no fines were issued then and there were no other complaints since, until last Saturday.

silja

I've heard of fines like that, but only after several warnings... if there was truly no incidents between 14 months ago and now, this is ridiculous.

fasttalkerchat

Either the landlord has signed up to something he hasn't read or the management company are chancing their arm. Either way, nothing for the tenant to be concerned about.

What is another matter however is the alleged noise complaint. The tenant needs to have consideration for neighbours sleeping etc. in future. If the LL has received some serious complaints regarding this tenant then that is something to look into.

Victor

Anti-social behaviour generally needs to be of an ongoing nature for a complaint to be sustained.

Slightly differently, depending on the house rules, a noise complaint would need the noise to be of such an order that it could be expected to cause material disturbance, even briefly. In court, it would need to be of an ongoing nature.

What does the landlords lease from the management company say?

What does the tenant's lease from the landlords say?

questionmark?

Simple answer is prove that it happened. i.e. video evidence, without it there is nothing one residents view can do to make this legally stick. Dont pay the €250

hawkelady

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

Either the landlord has signed up to something he hasn't read or the management company are chancing their arm. Either way, nothing for the tenant to be concerned about.

What is another matter however is the alleged noise complaint. The tenant needs to have consideration for neighbours sleeping etc. in future. If the LL has received some serious complaints regarding this tenant then that is something to look into.

Cheers for the replys, I will be chatting with the landlord later so I will ask him to clarify the questions that you asked.
With the comment above that suggests that the tenant has nothing to worry about, I'm sure if the fine has to be paid it will be the tenant who coughs up and nobody else!! I'm just curious as to what lengths can the management go to inforce this as it seems as if they deem themselves to be judge and jury and where did they get this 250 figure from, would it have to be in their management company document or whatever it's called...

fasttalkerchat

hawkelady wrote: »

Cheers for the replys, I will be chatting with the landlord later so I will ask him to clarify the questions that you asked.
With the comment above that suggests that the tenant has nothing to worry about, I'm sure if the fine has to be paid it will be the tenant who coughs up and nobody else!! I'm just curious as to what lengths can the management go to inforce this as it seems as if they deem themselves to be judge and jury and where did they get this 250 figure from, would it have to be in their management company document or whatever it's called...

Its very unlikely that the tenant has a contract with the management company. It is unlikely (but possible) that the landlord's contract with the management company says that he will be fined E250 for noise complaints.

I know its unfair, but if the LL has signed up to this he can't in turn levy a E250 fine on the tenant to cover his loss.

athtrasna

For a start a MC can't "fine" anyone. There are legalities around the word fine and who can impose them (mostly only courts and state services). The LL needs to check their deeds and lease with the MC to see what mentions there are of monetary sanctions.

Now am I the only one who thinks this story doesn't add up. A good tenant, no previous trouble, and then a €250 bill for a 2 minute bit of noise in the car park?

snickerpuss

Two of my friends were renting in Santry and had a number of people over for drinks one Saturday. Someone complained that people were chatting loudly while standing outside smoking and they got a €250 fine the next week from management company. They had only moved in. And they paid it, more fool them. Maybe after a few incidents but for one time?

Whatever about being considerate while living in an apartment, I would hate to live somewhere where I had to tip toe around in fear of fines. And I'd consider myself a good apartment dweller.

fasttalkerchat

snickerpuss wrote: »

Two of my friends were renting in Santry and had a number of people over for drinks one Saturday. Someone complained that people were chatting loudly while standing outside smoking and they got a €250 fine the next week from management company. They had only moved in. And they paid it, more fool them. Maybe after a few incidents but for one time?

Whatever about being considerate while living in an apartment, I would hate to live somewhere where I had to tip toe around in fear of fines. And I'd consider myself a good apartment dweller.

If they paid in cash they are out of luck.

hawkelady

Hi again,
The people who were in the taxi are willing to write a letter and sign it saying that it was them that were making the noise, Do you think that the MC will accept this?
The LL requested a copy of the lease with the MC but was told that its too big to copy so he couldnt have it, Does this sound right to you, He requested it last year as there was a leak in the apt and he found out the excess on the block insurance was 5k and when he tried to view where it said that,he was declined by the MC

He will ask the MC for proof of the incident last sat cause he reckons the MC doesnt have any,only hearsay..
The tenant have lived there for 4 years, with 5 complaints in that time, the last one being last sat, and the one before that being 14 months ago.
what we want to know is can the MC actually get this fine or have they no ground to collect it??
Its just that the LL actually believes his tenant in this instance and thinks the MC is being slightly devious with this hefty fine, the word "fine"is used throughout the invoice, I heard that the use of the word in this context is wrong cause a MC cannot legally collect a fine,is this true??

fasttalkerchat

This is not legal advice.

He may be entitled to a copy of a lease.
He may be able to obtain one under FOI provided that he will pay for photocopying.

The LL would need to find out himself for sure from someone who can give legal advice.

hawkelady

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

This is not legal advice.

He may be entitled to a copy of a lease.
He may be able to obtain one under FOI provided that he will pay for photocopying.

The LL would need to find out himself for sure from someone who can give legal advice.

I ain't looking for legal advice.
Just wondering if anyone has had similar stories and how they ended and maybe some views of what people think of the MC issuing fines for a somewhat small incident

athtrasna

For a start the landlord has to have a copy of the lease - it would be with all the documents signed at purchase. It's not the sort of thing you should lose - and it's unlikely to be more than 50 pages, the MC should be able to send a pdf copy of the standard lease to the LL.

On the issue of the insurance excess that will not be mentioned in the lease, it may mention "any excess" but the precise amount wouldn't be mentioned as it varies from year to year and insurer to insurer and development to development. Excesses have increased in recent years, largely to deter fraudulent claims.

The MC cannot legally issue anything called a fine. Without seeing the development rules and lease I don't know if they can impose monetary sanctions.

I am an owner/director of our management company. We have never issued such things for noise complaints but have done for other repeated lease breaches. In the instance of a unit being troublesome with noise, a solicitors letter was sent to the LL reminding them that they were responsible for ensuring their tenants complied with development rules (as the ll signed up to in their lease) - and the landlord evicted the tenants (legally) after a series of written complaints.

Victor

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

This is not legal advice.

He may be entitled to a copy of a lease.
He may be able to obtain one under FOI provided that he will pay for photocopying.

The LL would need to find out himself for sure from someone who can give legal advice.

The landlord will already have a copy of the lease.

Freedom of Information typically applies only to state agencies.

P_1

The Mgt Company in my place tried to do something similar a few weeks back.

Their problem was with people having their washing out on the balcony, they sent an A4 sheet around threatening a fine of €250 if they spotted anything 'other than plants or garden furniture' out on somebody's balcony.

Not 100% sure how legal this is.

athtrasna

pithater1 wrote: »

The Mgt Company in my place tried to do something similar a few weeks back.

Their problem was with people having their washing out on the balcony, they sent an A4 sheet around threatening a fine of €250 if they spotted anything 'other than plants or garden furniture' out on somebody's balcony.

Not 100% sure how legal this is.

A ban on washing on the balcony is pretty standard and the management company is likely to be entitled to levy a monetary sanction (not a fine) if this rule continues to be flouted. Ours does. It's what we all signed up to at purchase and all the units have washer dryers. Not saying that you should mechanically dry your clothes but we accepted the ban at purchase and therefore cannot complain that it is enforced.

P_1

To be fair the balconies aren't exactly big enough to fit much washing out on.

That's one rule I find hard to get my head around though.

What difference does it make by having washing out drying on the balcony? I mean it's hardly going to impact on the quality of your living by somebody having their washing out.

Can I ask what reasoning is behind this kind of ban from a management company's perspective? It's something I have been trying to get my head around.

athtrasna

It MAY be a condition of the planning permission in some cases. It can affect the appearance of a block and therefore may be specifically detailed. Remember the management company is the legal body of all owners, we did not set these rules, the builder's solicitors put the clauses in there for a reason.

fasttalkerchat

Victor wrote: »

The landlord will already have a copy of the lease.

Freedom of Information typically applies only to state agencies.

He doesn't. OP said.

P_1

athtrasna wrote: »

It MAY be a condition of the planning permission in some cases. It can affect the appearance of a block and therefore may be specifically detailed. Remember the management company is the legal body of all owners, we did not set these rules, the builder's solicitors put the clauses in there for a reason.

Thanks for that, planning conditions never entered my head as a potential reason but now that you have mentioned it, it does make some sense.

Strange that changes to the appearance by a building's occupants day to day activities would be considered by the planners but planning is a strange thing altogether sometimes.

fasttalkerchat

athtrasna wrote: »

A ban on washing on the balcony is pretty standard and the management company is likely to be entitled to levy a monetary sanction (not a fine) if this rule continues to be flouted. Ours does. It's what we all signed up to at purchase and all the units have washer dryers. Not saying that you should mechanically dry your clothes but we accepted the ban at purchase and therefore cannot complain that it is enforced.

What if the clothes cant be seen from outside? If you have some sort of small cover or bamboo fence against the railings everybody would be happy.

P_1

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

What if the clothes cant be seen from outside? If you have some sort of small cover or bamboo fence against the railings everybody would be happy.

A bamboo fence might fall foul of the exact same planning regs as washing though.

athtrasna

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

What if the clothes cant be seen from outside? If you have some sort of small cover or bamboo fence against the railings everybody would be happy.

Our leases say on the balconies or visible inside the property which would also include inside windows. You are also not permitted to attach anything to the railings including fencing or screens.

P_1

athtrasna wrote: »

Our leases say on the balconies or visible inside the property which would also include inside windows. You are also not permitted to attach anything to the railings including fencing or screens.

That's a very strict lease you have.

To be honest some of the conditions that are attached to apartments make houses seem like a much more attractive option.

athtrasna

pithater1 wrote: »

That's a very strict lease you have.

Perhaps, but I actually like it. In a house you have no control over things if a neighbour decides to paint their house bright orange in an estate of magnolia. In our development, the rules are what we signed up to and accepted at purchase. There's actually some security in that.

P_1

athtrasna wrote: »

Perhaps, but I actually like it. In a house you have no control over things if a neighbour decides to paint their house bright orange in an estate of magnolia. In our development, the rules are what we signed up to and accepted at purchase. There's actually some security in that.

That's fair enough. Personally I couldn't give a flying fig if the neighbours painted their house with pink polka dots for all the difference it would make to me.

Having said that I currently rent and I'd say if I bought my opinion on that might change.

djimi

athtrasna wrote: »

Our leases say on the balconies or visible inside the property which would also include inside windows. You are also not permitted to attach anything to the railings including fencing or screens.

In fairness that is massively taking the piss. Who on earth do the management company think they are to tell people what they can and cant do inside their own home?

athtrasna

djimi wrote: »

In fairness that is massively taking the piss. Who on earth do the management company think they are to tell people what they can and cant do inside their own home?

It's not the management company doing it, that's my point. The condition is in the leases we signed at purchase which in signing, made me and all other owners a member of the management company. It is something we signed up to. I've only known one case in the 8 years of someone being pursued on this and they literally had clothes in the front window 24/7 for 3 months. Thing is nobody would have noticed if they'd done it at the back...