The Spain Debate

monkey9

The main thing to come out of Euro 2012 in regards to Spain has been the
accusation that they're boring to watch. I'm just wondering what
people's thoughts are on this? I think it's better to have a thread on
it rather than clogging up the match threads.



My take on this from an entertainment factor is that they are boring.
There's no doubt they are the best international team in the world. They
want to win and they go about it a certain way which is effective. I
know blame needs to be attached to opposition sides in regards to the
entertainment value of a match by the way they set themselves up against
the Spanish, but there is only so far you can admire their technical
ability, their passing ability, their control of a game before you start
thinking 'can you actually do something now Spain?"



I honestly think Spain are as entertaining now as Italy in their
catenaccio days. It's effective, but not entertaining. I know the
purists will argue this and sure, I'd rather watch Spain than certain
Italian teams down through the years, but I wouldn't want that to be my
only choice.



People had a go at England the other night for the way they set up and
rightly so. Obviously, Spain tried to win their quarter final a lot more
than England did. But by not playing strikers at times, could you not
argue that they deserve the same amount of sympathy as England did
should they get knocked out on penalties? Sure, have all the possession
you like, knock it about all you like, but eventually you're going to
have to score a goal. If you don't, you've only yourself to blame.



Spain are regularly compared to Barcelona for obvious reasons. But I'd
rather watch Barca for the Lional Messi factor. Messi is like that
Japanese guy wearing the white suit in the Simpsons who just stands
there as his kung foo gang beat up the mafia. 'You just know he's going
to do something cool.'



Barca can knock it about all they want and it never gets boring because
in your head, you know that Messi is on the pitch to give things an
added dimension. Anything could happen.



Regardless of their style, they are one of the greatest teams ever. When
you think of great international sides, you automatically think Brazil,
especially the 1970 side. But they were entertaining. They scored goals
galore, they were brash and powerful, they went for the jugular. Spain
just seem to claw teams to death.



I don't hate Spain. In fact, far from it. They're one of my favourite
international teams and I never particulary want to see them knocked out
of tourmaments as I admire them so much. You can't argue with their
success and the end product. But as I said earlier, when watching them,
you inevitably at some stage end up screaming "for f*ck sake Spain, DO
SOMETHING!!!"

bohsman

I find them highly entertaining to watch. Cool calm passing throughout the team. In the 119th minute against Portugal they calmly passed it out through defence with several defenders taking a touch in their own box where every other team would have hoofed it. Could watch them all day.

dfx-

Like bohsman, I could watch them all day.

Using possession football as a control of the game defensively, well I can't think of many teams who've tried it and then succeeded. We know how devastating they could be in attack. The previous questions have been about their defence. They're now not letting anyone get shots on goal. In many ways that's just as impressive.

Germany sat deep, Portugal tried to push up, Paraguay tried to bore them to tears, Netherlands tried to kick them off the pitch, France used a slow tempo, Italy went with three at the back, Ireland tried..ehm, well everyone is trying something different.

And it's not working. Nobody beat them.

darkman2

Watching Spain is boring?


lol if Ireland (or England for that matter) had the quality to keep the ball like Spain does posters here would be all over them at how great they are.

Washington Irving

Original post looks like song lyrics to me

Grudle

I find them boring too. Their game plan is devised around keeping the ball and waiting for the other team to get tired from chasing them and making a mistake. It is a very defensive game plan, apart from the game against us they have never looked like scoring more than one.

Give me Germany or Portugal any day, at least they go out and attack and try to get goals.

Kirby

dfx- wrote: »

Like bohsman, I could watch them all day.

Using possession football as a control of the game defensively, well I can't think of many teams who've tried it and then succeeded. We know how devastating they could be in attack. The previous questions have been about their defence. They're now not letting anyone get shots on goal. In many ways that's just as impressive.

Germany sat deep, Portugal tried to push up, Paraguay tried to bore them to tears, Netherlands tried to kick them off the pitch, France used a slow tempo, Italy went with three at the back, Ireland tried..ehm, well everyone is trying something different.

And it's not working. Nobody beat them.

Switzerland beat them. England did a while back too.

I know what you mean though. 9 times out of 10 they will hammer anyone they play.

Pudsy33

They are undoubtedly class, but I honestly find them hard to watch. I admire the passing skill of Iniesta and Xavi, but they keep the ball so long if find it annoying. But if it works, I cant argue. Personally I've found all their games boring, bar the Italy one. Each to their own though

Edit: Actually, found the Semi interesting enough, but that was more due to Portugal's epic defensive effort.

GavRedKing

I think calling them boring is a bit harsh. They play the same football all over the pitch, whther its in their 18 yard box or yours. Its a joy to watch because ya know they will try somethkng spectacular eventually which usually results in a brillant piece of play from ang number of players.

I could watch Iniesta all day, that guy is a god on the pitch he makes everything look effortless. They'll go down as one of the greatest sides ever and some of the players are the greatest in there generation so I think there a joy to behold and that I can one day say I watched them.

kryogen

I don't find them boring, this argument has been made about them since before this tournament, it is also brought up in regards to Barca

Boring is not the word I use for them as a team, but I do find training matches to be pretty boring most of the time so I find the games boring overall. The entertainment factor of, pass pass pass pass pass pass pass pass pass pass pass pass little flick pass pass dink shoot blocked cleared recycled pass pass pass pass pass pass pass pass pass pass pass pass through ball attempt! cleared recycled pass pass pass pass pass pass pass pass pass

and ending a game with 2 shots on target does not entertain me.

Neil3030

They're only boring because other teams invariably park the bus and they can defend well against counter attacks.

Thus, they concede very few goals and score fewer goals when playing against an organised defence.

Italy should come out and give them a go in the final. Could be a fantastic match.

frisbeeface

I don't find them boring but I do think the way Del Bosque sets the team up makes them less fun to watch than they could be. I love watching their skill, composure and bravery with the ball and their pressing without it is pretty good to watch too. But they are just as effective and more exciting to watch when they've Navas and Pedro on, or Torres. Basically anybody trying to make runs behind the defence and stretch teams more.

Orando Broom

Deathly boring. They have allowed themselves go narrow because they can play in such tight spaces. I cannot fathom why they won't work the play wide and make the pitch as big as possible. If they did they'd win by a couple of clear goals everytime. Also playing Silva is a waste. He is a poor man's Iniesta and has no business being in the side. Pedro or Navas if they started with a striker would make them fun to watch because Pedro has pace and uses good control and pace to attack his man. He's a class player, far better than Silva.

Leiva

Excellent team that I would watch all day.

I love watching the different sequence of play and phases, and also how they close down to get back possession .

G.K.

I simply adore 2 things about Spain.

firstly, the interplay going forward, the one pass football is really good on the eye, but more than that, sometimes I can't think how they could have seen what they did. Iniesta and Silva are at the heart of this stuff, it's fantastic.

And echoing what bohsman said, the passing between the defenders, as opposed to hoofing, is brilliant. Busquets is central to all of that.

kitakyushu

Spain are entertaining until they're winning. Their game vs Portugal was one of the best in the tournament. Likewise their game vs Italy which probably was *the* game of the tournament.

By comparison once they went 1-0 up against France you might has well have turned off your tv and done something else.

Many people put the blame on the opponent for 'making' Spain play like that. But once they're winning the game they have the choice of doing whatever they like. They invariably just play it safe.

kryogen

Not against Ireland they didn't!!!!

You have a good point though

recyclebin

kitakyushu wrote: »

Their game vs Portugal was one of the best in the tournament.

Are you having a laugh. It was one of the most boring of the tournament. Spain only created chances in extra time when Portugal got tired.

kryogen

I thought the first half of the game v Portugal was good, but after that was pretty dull tbh

LuckyLloyd

They are the best team but they produce the worst matches.

aindriu80

I am probably one of the few but personally i don't think Spain is that entertaining to watch but really rate Real Madrid especially when they had Zidane and co.

Football is not completely about entertaining but results so its easy to look away depending on your point of view. I still think that after 4 years at the top Spain with all its clubs, players and money could be a lot better.

The 'tick tack thing' looks something players from Egypt put together on Tahrir square. I would really expect a top European country to have something better than that. France had the 'exploit thing' which looked tricky to do and entertaining to watch. Their goals were usually an end result of outstanding individuals combining what the team was trying to do with what they could do. It meant that when they got a goal it was France or Real Madrid it was far out !!.

Spain doesn't add up to the sum of its parts and its boring to watch. They react to everything as opposed to setting out what they are going to achieve.

I would expect a league of Ireland side to put 6 in the middle of the pitch not Spain. Putting 4 past us is not rocket science no matter what is said about our defensive record. Apart from a few really awesome short passes Spain has nothing else in the bag to deploy.

Nozebleed

greatest team in the history of the game. anyone who thinks otherwise has no understanding of the game.

LuckyLloyd

Nozebleed wrote: »

greatest team in the history of the game. anyone who thinks otherwise has no understanding of the game.

That Dutch team in the 70's weren't bad imo.

G.K.

Nozebleed wrote: »

greatest team in the history of the game. anyone who thinks otherwise has no understanding of the game.

That notion is ridiculous. What about The Brazil of '70, the totaalvoetbal Dutch team, 1950's Hungary, all of which have perfectly plausible arguments.

'anyone who thinks otherwise has no understanding of the game.' - That's pretty petty.

Corholio

Nozebleed wrote: »

greatest team in the history of the game. anyone who thinks otherwise has no understanding of the game.

Is that you Methuselah? :rolleyes:

No scale to measure it to be so obnoxious.

kryogen

Nozebleed wrote: »

greatest team in the history of the game. anyone who thinks otherwise has no understanding of the game.

Argument would wreck your head if you didnt hear tripe like it so often.

There has been football before this Spanish team came together, there have been hugely impressive teams and players.

Football did not begin with sky tv.

No understanding of the game is usually quite apt when dealing with such posts.

grohlisagod

My two cents.

Spain were a joy to watch under Aragones at Euro 2008. With Torres in top form linking up with Villa cutting in from the left and Silva from the right. Senna held the fort while Xaviesta ran the game. Both of their performances against Russia were fantastic.

They still controlled possession but they were far more incisive than the current side and carried a huge goal threat. Ever since Del Bosque has introduced a second holding midfield player they haven't had that same threat.

Now of course I accept Torres' form is iffy at best and Villa is injured but even when both have been fit and sharp he generally only selects one of them, persisting with the 2 holding midfielders. He has other good attackers like Pedro and Soldado who I would rather see in the side than Busquets.

Some of the interplay is still magnificent to watch but imo they don't create as many chances as they should given their dominance. They have become obsessed with retaining possession and while it makes them extremely difficult to score against and beat, they just aren't as entertaining.

Big Pussy Bonpensiero

Surprised by all the love for Spain, Barca play a more 'exciting' brand of football yet come in for more criticism, on here anyways. Not hard to see why I suppose.

Anyways, I love watching Spain, their brand of football is enthralling, they are the polar opposite to teams like Stoke. They have so many pure footballers, I just wish they would play a 4-3-3, it would involve dropping one of Busquets or Alonso though so it'll never happen. I am a firm believer in Pedro, I think he should be starting every game for Spain as he is one of their few players that can offer them penetration of the opposing defence. It's a shame Villa is missing this tournament, he would have a massive difference to the way they play.

ShamoBuc

Really like watching Spain play, but I wish they played with a striker up front. It would be very interesting to watch them in a 442 formation.

Phoenix Park

Spain have bored the shhit out of me the last two games. Can't believe anyone could consider the semi-final v Portugal as one of the games of the tournament, there was barely a chance in the whole match.

Playing without a "number 9", or however you want to describe the position, feels like an affront to me as a football fan. I know it isn't, but it feels like it is. Time and time again when they have a corner its Fabregas out to take a short one, then back to Busquets, then the cycle goes on and on. Its almost like we've come full circle. Its great to see such control and their one touch triangle passing...but it turns out you CAN have too much of a good thing. Shows just how great Leo is at Barca, they are riveting going forward compared to Spain. I would not dispute that Spain are a great side, but i would that they are entertaining. If they lift the trophy i won't dispute that they deserve it.

I hope Italy beat them. I can't see past a low scoring game with Spain winning in the end, but i hope i'm wrong about that. I love the narrow diamond Italy have played with, how players like Montolivo, who i've always be sceptical about, have flourished in the system. Cassano has worked like a dog, he's still got great technique. No need to mention Pirlo again i suppose.. Buffon seems such a gent, i'd love to see him lift the trophy.

Phoenix Park

THFC wrote: »

Surprised by all the love for Spain, Barca play a more 'exciting' brand of football yet come in for more criticism, on here anyways. Not hard to see why I suppose.

Anyways, I love watching Spain, their brand of football is enthralling, they are the polar opposite to teams like Stoke. They have so many pure footballers, I just wish they would play a 4-3-3, it would involve dropping one of Busquets or Alonso though so it'll never happen. I am a firm believer in Pedro, I think he should be starting every game for Spain as he is one of their few players that can offer them penetration of the opposing defence. It's a shame Villa is missing this tournament, he would have a massive difference to the way they play.

Completely agree about David Villa. Much better side to watch when he's in the side.

greendom

As far as I can see Spain have progressed catennacio by defending in the opposition's half. Keeping possession is the number 1 aim, not necessarily to do anything positive with it, but to ensure the opposition don't get it. They have players with amazing technical ability and this means this strategy works. It bores me to tears though and I think it's a shocking waste of an amazingly talented group of players.

G.K.

grohlisagod wrote: »

My two cents.

Spain were a joy to watch under Aragones at Euro 2008. With Torres in top form linking up with Villa cutting in from the left and Silva from the right. Senna held the fort while Xaviesta ran the game. Both of their performances against Russia were fantastic.

They still controlled possession but they were far more incisive than the current side and carried a huge goal threat. Ever since Del Bosque has introduced a second holding midfield player they haven't had that same threat.

Now of course I accept Torres' form is iffy at best and Villa is injured but even when both have been fit and sharp he generally only selects one of them, persisting with the 2 holding midfielders. He has other good attackers like Pedro and Soldado who I would rather see in the side than Busquets.

Some of the interplay is still magnificent to watch but imo they don't create as many chances as they should given their dominance. They have become obsessed with retaining possession and while it makes them extremely difficult to score against and beat, they just aren't as entertaining.

The 2 holders isn't the problem, it's the fact that they are both played with Xavi, meaning that Spain's centre is full of players who sit further back and not enough bodies go forward.

Hypothetically, 2 holders works, because that allows for the liberation of both fullbacks. But Xavi cannot be played as well because central penetration is needed and he'll sit too deep. Consider this (Based off this defensive shape) - It's an attacking shape for Spain with directness combined with creativity from most of the players. Silva, Iniesta, Fabregas, Alonso, Busquets can all work wonderful passing moves, but with Villa, Fabregas, Iniesta, Iraola and Alba (And Alonso's long passing + Silva's dropping deep) there's plenty of directness so chances shouldn't go begging.

But that's not to say the double pivote is undroppable. If you play with Arbeloa, who won't be getting forward like Alba or Iraola (Or Montoya! ) would, you can afford to drop Alonso from the holding role, and reinstate Xaviesta to the middle to form the Barca 3 (General shape along these lines - Note Xavi and Arbeloa are missing arrows), who are well versed in playing with one fullback bombing on. You could replace Silva with Torres or Llorente, but again creativity is there in abundance (Barca 3 shouldering most of ther responsibility, plus the man up top if they are Silva/Llorente (Or indeed Fabregas)).

So, it's more down to general team selection as opposed to simply Alonso-Busquets that sees Spain lack incisiveness. This article is very good in that regard, for example. In my opinion the one biggest problem is Alonso & Xavi in the middle with Busquets, one has to be dropped else Spain won't penetrate enough.

Addressing other points:

Busquets cannot be dropped unless it is for Javi Martinez to come in - Alonso has tended to function best with a 'ball winner' (Although Busquets is in no way limited to being that) with him, Mascherano/Khedira the prime examples. Xavi likewise but to a greater extent.

Villa would be great to have back but putting him up top is no answer to incisiveness.

A Did You Know Fact - In major tournaments, Villa has only scored in games that Torres started in. Villa isn't a lone forward at all, it's not his game.

Yakult

They are mainly a one dimensional team but they excel at that like no other team has and can. Watched them do it for so long now Im not as taking by it as I was but they still have to be admired for their style.

Winston Payne

They're not as bad to watch this time around as they were during the World Cup. Teams are having a bit more of a go and Spain seem slightly livlier at this tournament as well. There's been nothing as bad as the Portugal and Paraguay games at the World Cup.

Fight_Night

Any game involving Spain is unentertaining unless the other team has the midfield to cope with them(which at present is a very small number of teams). Yeah they win all their matches one nil but I prefer 3-2s myself.

If Spain were to hypothetically lose Xavi, Alonso and Iniesta, I think they'd play a much more attractive type of football. Then again they'd probably lose a lot more matches too so can't really blame them for how they play, it gets results, slowly but surely.

What teams could compete with them given the current squads? I'd like to see a competitive match between Brazil and Spain.

monkey9

Maybe i'm being harsh in calling them boring, but their matches in general in this tournament have bored me! They just have.

I agree with some of the comments in that it is good to see the keeper roll the ball out to the full backs rather than hoofing it. It is good to see the defence pass the ball to midfield rather than hoofing it. I like all that. But they don't seem to do anything after that. It's all pass pass pass but without going for the jugular.

They are so good it just annoys me to see them happy to win a game one nil rather than just demolish a team. It's frustrating at times!

Owen_S

They averaged 1.6 goals per game in Euro 2012, that alone is enough to suggest that they are boring. It's a defensive style of football, passing with an aim of keeping it away from the opponent, but no intent to score(rarely have players ahead of the ball, often end up where they started in a move).

Also: Barcelona average twice as many goals per game, something worth noticing before claiming that they play an identical brand of football.

Xavi6

Orando Broom wrote: »

Deathly boring. They have allowed themselves go narrow because they can play in such tight spaces. I cannot fathom why they won't work the play wide and make the pitch as big as possible. If they did they'd win by a couple of clear goals everytime. Also playing Silva is a waste. He is a poor man's Iniesta and has no business being in the side. Pedro or Navas if they started with a striker would make them fun to watch because Pedro has pace and uses good control and pace to attack his man. He's a class player, far better than Silva.

This gave me a laugh, your post was much more entertaining than watching Spain

gosplan

How can people not admire a team who defend by playing football?

It's just like Mr. Myagi said ....

'best block ... No be there'

mike65

Spain have taken control and made it their whole raison d'etre, 1-0 to the Spain is what they aspire to every time. Sure they can create pretty patterns and one can admire the ability to use a ball in tight spaces but I can't warm to it. the only reason the performance against Ireland was entertaining was down to Ireland not defending and Torres getting a game.

LuckyLloyd

greendom wrote: »

As far as I can see Spain have progressed catennacio by defending in the opposition's half. Keeping possession is the number 1 aim, not necessarily to do anything positive with it, but to ensure the opposition don't get it. They have players with amazing technical ability and this means this strategy works. It bores me to tears though and I think it's a shocking waste of an amazingly talented group of players.

I agree that it's boring, but it can't be considered a "waste" given all the trophies they've won.

greendom

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

I agree that it's boring, but it can't be considered a "waste" given all the trophies they've won.

I know, from a winning perspective it can't be questioned, but from an entertainment perspective it certainly can be. Their legacy would be so much greater if they played with more panache and adventure.

LuckyLloyd

greendom wrote: »

I know, from a winning perspective it can't be questioned, but from an entertainment perspective it certainly can be. Their legacy would be so much greater if they played with more panache and adventure.

No doubt. The Dutch team of the 70's didn't win a damn thing but they were so entertaining they are remembered half a century later.

Spain have clinically diagnosed what it takes to grind out game after game after game and have gone after their objectives ruthlessly - with no professional foul to break up play or dive to win a free considered too cynical.

It's the finest example of how to win football matches, style and entertainment be damned.

G.K.

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

No doubt. The Dutch team of the 70's didn't win a damn thing but they were so entertaining they are remembered half a century later.

Spain have clinically diagnosed what it takes to grind out game after game after game and have gone after their objectives ruthlessly - with no professional foul to break up play or dive to win a free considered too cynical.

It's the finest example of how to win football matches, style and entertainment be damned.

Good point, people can't forget this.

kryogen

G.K. wrote: »

Good point, people can't forget this.

People in general are very very selective about what they remember in that regard

Mr.Nice Guy

I think the best football contests (and the best sporting contests generally) are when the two opponents are going at it full-blooded. That's why in football we appreciate the 4-4 contests, and in boxing matches such as that involving Ali/Frazier, or in tennis the Nadal/Federer matches.

The thing about the Spanish however is that they aren't interested in allowing their opponents get at them. Their game is purely about control. They aren't interested in an attacking system that would leave them vulnerable even though they could probably afford to given their attacking flair. I can see why some would find it dull and boring but personally I find it intriguing. Here is a side that has mastered patient possession football to such an art form that they are willing to settle results on their own terms. Watching them it's almost like a cautious siege of their opponent's goal. Putting up base camp in their opponent's half and quite content to win the battle of attrition by carefully orchestrated assaults whilst minimising the risk to their own goal.

Sure as a spectacle it can seem a bore but how many teams in world football could successfully pull this off? You can probably count on one hand the ones that could make it work. I personally admire them for attaining such a level of excellence that they can do this.

The_Kew_Tour

I like watching Spain. Even if I didnt they play to their strengths which is short passing game and they have perfected it which is to be admired.

Mont

No one else comes close, numerous records broken tonight. Really if you find Spain boring, you should stop watching soccer. They are the ultimate footballing side. Who needs strikers anymore - brilliant

Seaneh

They ****ing had been boring up until tonight.
Some of their games this tournament were dire to watch.

Infact, they have been boring as hell to watch for about 2 years besides tonight.

J. Marston

They were class tonight, no question, but that doesn't change the fact that they had been dull, Iniesta aside, for large parts of the tournament.