The Spain Debate

kitakyushu

I was so glad they kept playing once they got to 1-0. They did themselves justice as well as putting on a great show.

Big Pussy Bonpensiero

Seaneh wrote: »

They ****ing had been boring up until tonight.
Some of their games this tournament were dire to watch.

Infact, they have been boring as hell to watch for about 2 years besides tonight.

Each to their own. Doubt you did much complaining to 2006.


Spain are a fantastic team to watch, it's 100% football, and there's no luck to it whatsoever, everything they do is down to sheer skill and technical ability. I doubt we'll ever see a team do anything similar, not for a long time anyways.

monkey9

They did tonight what i expect Spain to do in general. There's no doubt their matches in this tournament have been poor affairs, but tonight was a masterclass.

They didn't let the match fizzle out at one nil as they just passed the ball around midfield. They went for it and it was a joy to watch!

Seaneh

Seaneh wrote: »

They ****ing had been boring up until tonight.
Some of their games this tournament were dire to watch.

Infact, they have been boring as hell to watch for about 2 years besides tonight.

:pac::pac:

Pepe LeFrits

We saw a team do similar this season; they got beaten to the big gongs by Chelsea and Real Madrid though.

Spain are tremendously dominant but there are and have been many, many more entertaining teams.

Sergio

I will say spain were not great throughout the tournament and they looked very tired against portugal in the semi final but they stepped it up when they needed too tonight and they were pure class.
Anyone who says there boring would want there eyes tested and i think they proved it tonight beyond doubt how good they are.
Viva L'espana!!!

Ulysses Gaze

Fight_Night wrote: »

What teams could compete with them given the current squads? I'd like to see a competitive match between Brazil and Spain.

Brazil and Argentina. If Argentina got their act together they have a midfield that would give Spain a run for their money.

dohouch

Spain scored 1 goal against Croatia, in the 87th minute, and now 4.

So IMHO Spain play boringly and at other times show the world how it should be done.

klose

Its mad to think that they dont have to do any qualifiers for another 4 years atleast.Next up is confederations cup? Always enjoy that. I suppose doing 4 in a row and winning in 2014 isint a mad notion to have?
Would the lack of games not efferct the fifa rankings?

kryogen

In what was for me, their worst night in terms of retaining possession they produced their best game of the tournament

The goal before half time killed the game, then when Italy went down to 10 they really could have just picked up the ball and left. Shame that we didn't get to see the game end with all 22 on the pitch, but I doubt it was changing the result in the end, just feel it skews perceptions a little and Italy certainly did not deserve to lose the final 4-0

monkey9

whippedcream wrote: »

Its mad to think that they dont have to do any qualifiers for another 4 years atleast.Next up is confederations cup? Always enjoy that. I suppose doing 4 in a row and winning in 2014 isint a mad notion to have?
Would the lack of games not efferct the fifa rankings?

They do have to qualify! Only the hosts get through automatically.

kryogen

monkey9 wrote: »

They do have to qualify! Only the hosts get through automatically.

Spot on, Brazil were the first defending champs to have to qualify in 2006

dfx-

dohouch wrote: »

So IMHO Spain play boringly and at other times show the world how it should be done.

Some people would be bored with Spain regardless of the scoreline. 4-0 to Spain will not make anymore an 'exciting' match as them drawing 0-0 will.

gosplan

dfx- wrote: »

Some people would be bored with Spain regardless of the scoreline. 4-0 to Spain will not make anymore an 'exciting' match as them drawing 0-0 will.

What I'm wondering is who all the 'exciting' teams are that have won trophies in the last 20 years.


Crazy stat on TV last night as well - that's 10 international knockout matches that Spain have gone without conceding a goal. :eek:

LuckyLloyd

gosplan wrote: »

What I'm wondering is who all the 'exciting' teams are that have won trophies in the last 20 years.

Brazil in 1998 / 2002 produced some pretty cool games / performances
France in 2000 were great to watch
Argentina in 1986 put up a string of amazing matches on their way to the trophy

Leftist

that final was different. Lovely counter attacking football. the tikitaka pass to death stuff is just painful to watch now. I think people are sick ot it.

at the end of the day, game of two halves, people watch football for entertainment and drama, watching sparcelona pass, pass, pass everyone to make a mistake is getting far too boring.

gosplan

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Brazil in 1998 / 2002 produced some pretty cool games / performances
France in 2000 were great to watch
Argentina in 1986 put up a string of amazing matches on their way to the trophy

IMO Spain have matched and surpassed all of those teams in terms of entertainment and performances.


As I see it this new 'bored with Spain' problem could be one of two things:

1: The Steve Davis effect.

2: The fact that Spain don't let the opposition in the game so it's the game that's boring rather than the team.

My guess is that when this team goes, we'll have another world cup final decided on a penalty or a corner and people will realise that Spain were actually rather interesting.

SlickRic

it's now "cool" to not like Spain.

just like it was "cool" to think Spain were the greatest thing ever over most of the last 4 years.

people are funny.

Leftist

SlickRic wrote: »

it's now "cool" to not like Spain.

just like it was "cool" to think Spain were the greatest thing ever over most of the last 4 years.

people are funny.

shock horror as people get bored of things after a while.

RayCon

If only Ireland could be that boring.

Melion

People calling them boring make me laugh. Would you rather watch Irelands style of play? Englands maybe?

Spain are the best footballing team, anyone who finds them boring needs to find a different sport to watch

SlickRic

also, last night Spain weren't that much better or worse than they have been all tournament.

the difference was last night Italy had a go, tried themselves to boss the game in the first half, and paid for it with the 2 goals against them, while they themselves couldn't take advantage of their chances.

Italy's higher defensive line than most who've played Spain this tournament meant that Xavi and Iniesta could put balls in behind. so in fact, Italy shot themselves in the foot because they tried to play Spain at their own game, and couldn't, because Spain are just that much better.

last night just proved that you need Spain's opponent to do something different from playing really deep for the game to be entertaining. Italy did that in both their games against Spain, and it made for pretty good watching. it's not Spain's fault they don't want to give the ball away. others have to compete with that. the way a lot of teams have competed is with deep defending, which makes for the bad games by and large. and since Spain are successful, it's up to others to do something about it IMO.

Leftist

obviously spain are fantastic, nobody is suggesting otherwise.

What is boring is one team completely dominating another, winning all before them and holding posession until the other team tire out.

As a spectacle give me portugal or germany any day over spain.

Footballing styles are about opinions, if you want to tune into watch an exceptional team murder another then that's your right.

Some of us want to see two reasonably matched sides play eachtother.

SlickRic

Leftist wrote: »

Some of us want to see two reasonably matched sides play eachtother.

i do too.

but it doesn't take away from Spain.

my point is that they're not the boring ones, or the ones the onus is on to get better; it's the rest of the teams.

it's people getting at Spain that confuse me.

i understand complaining that some of the games are boring. that i agree with. some were terrible. but i maintain that it's not their fault.

Father Damo

International football teams are in the business of playing effective, not attractive football. I honestly couldnt give a sh1te how negative a side is, if they can win a final it is the mark of a managerial genius tbh. Demanding high scoring sexy football is for people who couldnt give a sh1te about the intricities of the game IMO. One of the main complaints Australians I meet here (rugby fans) who dont get soccer make is that a match can end scoreless or low scoring, one goal in 90 minutes or nil nil, which makes it a waste of time. They cant see the build up, the tension around the whole thing. That is the beauty of football, that a defensively minded coach could face a team with three or four best attacking players in the game and still sneak away with a 1-0 against them.

gosplan

Leftist wrote: »

Some of us want to see two reasonably matched sides play eachtother.

Very true. I enjoyed last night but am slightly peeved that Germany messed it up. IMO, they could have given Spain a great match if they were on form.

Leftist

i think they would have murdered germany too tbh.

jmayo

gosplan wrote: »

IMO Spain have matched and surpassed all of those teams in terms of entertainment and performances.

The 1986 Argentina team led by Maradona as mentioned above might not have been made up of as many good individual players, but they had one of the greatest, if not the greatest player of all time, who was literally on fire.

That made for excitment.
Maradona did stuff like that goal against England that were genius.
If you have never seen him toy with the Belgians, then try and watch it.
There are clips on youtube.
Everytime he got the ball you just sat up wondering what would happen next.
I can't say this Spanish team do that.

The 1982 Brazilian team did not even make it past the second round, but ask anyone if they thought they were entertaining and spectacular.

On results this Spanish team are up at the top, but please don't jump to conclusions about how entertaining they are.

gosplan wrote: »

As I see it this new 'bored with Spain' problem could be one of two things:

1: The Steve Davis effect.

2: The fact that Spain don't let the opposition in the game so it's the game that's boring rather than the team.

Pretty correct.
I think people ultimately want to see a contest where both teams actually get to play with the ball.
It is fantastic spectacle from a technical point of view how Spain can play their possession football, but it is kinda like watching the All Blacks steam roll some poor team.
It can get boring as a spectacle after a while.

Spain did play some poor boring football until last night when they upped their game.
And even though they won 4-0, I don't think the gulf between Italy and Spain is that great.

Melion wrote: »

People calling them boring make me laugh. Would you rather watch Irelands style of play? Englands maybe?

Spain are the best footballing team, anyone who finds them boring needs to find a different sport to watch

Just because someone might call them boring for their possession football doesn't mean someone wants to go to the other extreme which has teams that think the ball is a hot potatoe that must be gotten rid of ASAP.

Richard Hillman

Spain played entertaining football last night. They were pants to watch as a neutral against Portugal and France.

Leftist

the reason they were entertaining last night is because they didn't play the typical spanish way. at 1-0 up they were second to almost everything.

Pepe LeFrits

SlickRic wrote: »

also, last night Spain weren't that much better or worse than they have been all tournament.

the difference was last night Italy had a go, tried themselves to boss the game in the first half, and paid for it with the 2 goals against them, while they themselves couldn't take advantage of their chances.

Italy's higher defensive line than most who've played Spain this tournament meant that Xavi and Iniesta could put balls in behind. so in fact, Italy shot themselves in the foot because they tried to play Spain at their own game, and couldn't, because Spain are just that much better.

last night just proved that you need Spain's opponent to do something different from playing really deep for the game to be entertaining. Italy did that in both their games against Spain, and it made for pretty good watching. it's not Spain's fault they don't want to give the ball away. others have to compete with that. the way a lot of teams have competed is with deep defending, which makes for the bad games by and large. and since Spain are successful, it's up to others to do something about it IMO.

Italy gave Spain a good game in the opener playing similarly high up the pitch. Their defending was just shocking for the first 2 goals last night.

It's Spain's fault that they play with six central midfielders now and their keeping of the ball is as much a defensive tactic as it an offensive one. In 2008 they had Iniesta playing as one of their midfield three - since then they've basically replaced Torres with Iniesta and Villa with Fabregas in the front three. It's much more one paced and it's not so much cut and thrust these days as it is smothering teams to death.

It works for them so why change it, but don't complain when people don't love them as much for it.

gosplan wrote: »

Very true. I enjoyed last night but am slightly peeved that Germany messed it up. IMO, they could have given Spain a great match if they were on form.

A shame aye but I don't think they'd have done much better - they only really looked like the Germany of 2 years ago in the QF vs Greece; I think maybe swapping Gomez for Klose has spoiled the fluidity of that team.

SlickRic

Leftist wrote: »

the reason they were entertaining last night is because they didn't play the typical spanish way. at 1-0 up they were second to almost everything.

because Italy were very good.

they competed at Spain's level, therefore there was more intrigue and back-and-forth.

Italy's performance, and fearlessness in it, helped make it a very good game.

Seaneh

SlickRic wrote: »

because Italy were very good.

they competed at Spain's level, therefore there was more intrigue and back-and-forth.

Italy's performance, and fearlessness in it, helped make it a very good game.

Until Mota went off, then the game was over, Italy couldn't compete in the middle anymore and it became more of a training game.

gosplan

jmayo wrote: »

The 1982 Brazilian team did not even make it past the second round, but ask anyone if they thought they were entertaining and spectacular.

On results this Spanish team are up at the top, but please don't jump to conclusions about how entertaining they are.

The 1982 team were amazing but they played 5 games. Go back to the genesis of this current Spanish team and wittness people's original reaction to them - everyone creaming themselves over the movement and passing. Their problem is they've played a hell of a lot more than 5 games.

As someone said, it's now unfashionable to like Spain but if they had never previously existed in their current form and won the Euro's in the maner they just did, people would be all over it - and words like entertaining and spectacular would be flying all over the place.

They are simply, an astoundingly good football team. Whether or not you enjoy watching them is subjective of course but I don't get how anyone with a brain and an appreciation for good football could possibly not find them enthralling.

Personally, I think we've been spoilt by them. We take if for granted that there's a team that can do that.