I'm having a serious problem with my dogs. Advice? It's very important

ElleElleB

This is long....I know but it's very important so I'd appreciate it if anyone with experience with dogs and training would read and give their opinions to help me because I have a serious problem. My 10 year old springer spaniel dog wont accept our new 3ish year old bichon frise that we adopted 2 days ago. They're both male which isn't ideal but we used to have another male dog who passed away last year and he got along with my older dog famously in fact they were great friends so that's why we got another male dog because he never had an issue with him when he arrived as a puppy. Myself and my family felt he missed the company of another dog so when the opportunity arose to adopt the new dog we took it. But when he saw the dog in the garden he literally climbed over him and started being agressive. I needed to push him off with my leg and pull the new dog up into my arms and take him away. However when I bring the new dog walking on neutral teritory on a leash our older dog is somewhat ok with him. He came over and smelled him and walked away and whined a bit but it went ok and I felt a bit better. But he gets very angry when we approach our gate and are about to enter our house he doesn't want the new dog coming in. I suppose in a nutshell he's a little ok with the dog on neutral territory but objects to him on his territory. I expected some problems when the new dog was introduced but I never expected it to be THIS bad.
The situation now is my new dog needs to stay inside all the time because if he went outside my older dog would object and get aggressive. So I basically have to sit downstairs all day with the new dog because he can't go outside for a couple hours. My older dog has always been a bit independent but I NEVER thought he would be this aggressive with the new dog. He also barks outside while the new dog barks inside. I'm trying to discipline the new dog but he's stubborn and hard work but I'm working on it. What's really worrying me now is we saw our vet today and he said it's very possible that the 2 dogs will never get along! The older dog is bigger than the new one and I don't want him to hurt him. The vet just said to try take them for walks on neutral territory both on leashes and let them relax around each other and slowly try and move the walks to our garden. But I feel so worried now, my older dog is being more aggressive than I thought he could be and I just feel deep down that he may never accept him and possibly harm him and the vet said this is a possibility. It's only been 2 days so far but I just feel anxious because they got off to such a bad start. The new dog has to stay inside all the time except for walks and toilet breaks and we have to make sure my older dog is out of sight before I can take the new dog out. I just want an honest opinion on this, do you think this whole situation is hopeless? Will 2 male dogs ever get along or will they always fight? The older dog is quite territorial (much more than I thought he was) and the new one is very friendly but untrained and has some behavioural problems that have yet to be fixed so he can be a bit cheeky and he barks A LOT. Will this ever work out? Would a dog trainer/dog behavioural expert be worth consulting? I know it's only been 2 days, but I want to have a plan of action if the situation doesn't get better. I also feel the next few days is vital if I want them to get along, how would you approach the situation the next few days? Do you think walking them together on leads on neutral territory like the vet suggested is a good plan of action?

My vet said neutering the new dog may help too so I'll probably be doing that but considering it's the older dog who is more aggressive I fear he still may not accept him neutered or not. I just feel awful about this and I literally don't know what to do. I'd love some personal opinions. I feel like my family isn't helping me with this either and it's all down to me. I'm good with dogs and training and willing to put in the time and effort but I just feel is their any point trying to train the new dog and get the older dog to accept him if regardless of all my efforts they still just don't get along and fight? I'm wondering at the back of my mind is the best thing for me to be doing is looking for a better and safer home for my new dog before I get too attached to him. It would break my heart to give him up and I'd feel like a failure but I don't want my 2 dogs in distress and fighting, it's not fair for either of them. But if I thought there was a bit of hope that somehow I could get this situation to work I'd try it. What do you think? Is it hopeless trying or do you think there is a chance?

ppink

where did you initially introduce them? did your new guy come from a rescue- I am kind of assuming not as he is not neutered??

ElleElleB

ppink wrote: »

where did you initially introduce them? did your new guy come from a rescue- I am kind of assuming not as he is not neutered??

They were introduced in the garden which was wrong of course but it was by accident we didn't plan it. I was out there with the new dog and the older dog was out for a walk with someone else but came back without me expecting it. So I suppose he was bound to react badly when he met him on his territory. I feel bad about that mishap, they got off to a bad start so I'm hoping my older dog doesn't have a bad impression of him forever.

And yes he didn't come from a shelter he came from a woman who had 2 German Shepard's with him and he was a bit neglected. She moved out and took the Shepard's but didn't want him any more and asked my cousin (her neighbour) if she wanted him. She then called me and asked me about it. I'd been considering a new dog for awhile and decided to take him. He has behavioural issues like barking and scratching the doors but he's not aggressive at all he's just young and a bit cheeky.

ppink

Oh I see your older dog probably got a bit miffed then:).
the reason I asked about the rescue was in case they could help you if you had gone through one.
there are far more qualified people on here than me to help you also! Perhaps you could think about getting a qualified behaviourist in to try to help? it may help you especially now your older guy is getting cross about the situation.
as regards 2 males we have always had 2+male dogs and most have been fine, some just did not like each other but most were no problem. I would not be too worried about one of them staying in for a while until you can get help either.

Cherry Blossom

OP does your older dog come inside the house at all?

It sounds like you are expecting a little too much too soon tbh. Keep doing what is working, ie. walking them together on leads, gradually decreasing the distance between them, walking dogs together is a great bonding exercise. Once they are completely comfortable with this you could try letting them interact with each other in a safe place they have never been before (eg. a friend/family members garden. When this starts working get yourself a dog/baby gate and keep them in adjoining rooms in the house, where they can see/smell each other but both are completely safe on their own side. Swap their beds over every other day. Once you are sure they are both ready you can then progress to walking both dogs around in circles in your garden on lead.

At all stages reward both dogs frequently when they are showing no signs of agro towards each other or even better completely ignoring each other.

It could take days/weeks/months of each step before you can progress to next, don't try to rush it, just play it by ear and be prepared to take steps backwards or deviate from the plan if necessary. Give the new dog plenty of time to settle in properly, and put neutering him off for a few weeks at least until he feels comfortable and secure around you and your family. I wouldn't be aiming to have the dogs interacting with each other at least until the new fella has had time to recover from the op. In the meantime you need to come with a solid plan for managing them both separately.

BTW I have no qualifications whatsoever and just made all of this up as I typed it but have successfully brought a second adult dog into equation on a few occasions in the past.

ElleElleB

adrenalinjunkie wrote: »

OP does your older dog come inside the house at all?

It sounds like you are expecting a little too much too soon tbh. Keep doing what is working, ie. walking them together on leads, gradually decreasing the distance between them, walking dogs together is a great bonding exercise. Once they are completely comfortable with this you could try letting them interact with each other in a safe place they have never been before (eg. a friend/family members garden. When this starts working get yourself a dog/baby gate and keep them in adjoining rooms in the house, where they can see/smell each other but both are completely safe on their own side. Swap their beds over every other day. Once you are sure they are both ready you can then progress to walking both dogs around in circles in your garden on lead.

At all stages reward both dogs frequently when they are showing no signs of agro towards each other or even better completely ignoring each other.

It could take days/weeks/months of each step before you can progress to next, don't try to rush it, just play it by ear and be prepared to take steps backwards or deviate from the plan if necessary. Give the new dog plenty of time to settle in properly, and put neutering him off for a few weeks at least until he feels comfortable and secure around you and your family. I wouldn't be aiming to have the dogs interacting with each other at least until the new fella has had time to recover from the op. In the meantime you need to come with a solid plan for managing them both separately.

BTW I have no qualifications whatsoever and just made all of this up as I typed it but have successfully brought a second adult dog into equation on a few occasions in the past.

He does come inside yes but he doesn't sleep inside besides bad weather days because he just doesn't want to. He's an agile dog for a 10 year old and he just runs around inside wanting to go outside. Ideally we would want the 2 dogs to spend a few hours each day outside and bring them in every now and then and during bad weather etc so they are treated the same. But right now I can't bring the old one in or the new one out because I'm afraid.

I will do what you said I'm going to try to interact them on mutual territory to see if they relax but it's when we step into our garden that the older dog objects. I suppose I just need to take it day by day and try to relax but my older dog is acting so territorial that it's making me lose hope.

rosehip

Elle,

I'm surprised the vet didn't say anything about the original dog being upset because he thinks he is no longer the alpha male - and this will be reinforced by you picking up the newbie and keeping him indoors as that is all counted as alpha dog status.

Unfortunately, the way they met was unfortunate, the original dog came home and found a newbie in his house and garden with his owners and is now trying to assert his alpha status.

Is there any chance, you could have the oldie in the house for a few hours with you and the newbie in the garden alone and see if oldie's behaviour eases. Then after a few hours, let the newbie in carefully. Also, to reinforce the oldie's status, he should be petted first and fed first. This will reassert his "top dog" status and he might not see the newbie as a threat.

I could just be repeating stuff you know - have never been on this section before but i saw your post on the homepage and felt for you.

I can no longer have dogs due to ill health but i miss it so much!!!

Best of luck,
Rose

Lima Golf

I've posted this previously, its 1 I seen on it's me or the dog USA. These 2 dogs hated each other, 1 was a pet in the home for years, the second was a rescue dog who they introduced into the home. (similar to your situation) They would try to attack each other constantly. They had to keep 1 outside and 1 indoors while they were at work. Even when the owners were home they kept them in different rooms.

Every time either dog looked at each other or enered the same room they clicked and treated them. They got to learn very quickly if they were nice to each other nice things happened to them! By the end of the week they were sitting side by side, happy out!

I'd try something similar. Every time your big dog looks at your new dog and doesn't growl or display aggression, click and treat. He'll soon learn to assosiate being nice to your new dog as a positive thing. Once you see improvement try having them in the same room and plenty treats and praise for any good behaviour.

I'm sure if you search for the episode online it's out there somewhere! I'll have a look and post a link if I can find it.

Lima Golf

It's not the full episode, but it's sort of the highlights of the show

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=opjGWAp_RAE

The episode is USA series 1 episode 106 - the chief of jealously, you may be able to find a full episode.

ElleElleB

Lima Golf wrote: »

It's not the full episode, but it's sort of the highlights of the show

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=opjGWAp_RAE

The episode is USA series 1 episode 106 - the chief of jealously, you may be able to find a full episode.

Thanks for that I'll give that a go too it's similar to what I've been trying so far except I haven't been giving them as many treats.

Rose - I'll bring him in too and see how that goes. I know it's wrong for the older dog to know the new guy is inside but I don't now what else to do. They can't both stay inside or outside because the older guy might fight him. So it's difficult to know what to do.

Well the situation now is myself and my sister have been taking the 2 dogs out for walks on leashes on mutual territory but the older dog just barks and growls at the new dog and I don't feel so confident that it will get better. I know he's annoyed that the new guy is inside (even though my older dog doesn't even like being inside a lot) but I can't leave the new guy outside because they will fight so I don't know what else to do. The new guy keeps barking inside too which makes it worse. I'm trying to stop him but goodness he's stubborn! I'm just anxious and wondering if this will ever work out. I don't want either dog in distress. I'll keep the mutual territory walks going but right now I just don't feel good about it.

Graces7

ElleElleB wrote: »

Thanks for that I'll give that a go too it's similar to what I've been trying so far except I haven't been giving them as many treats.

Rose - I'll bring him in too and see how that goes. I know it's wrong for the older dog to know the new guy is inside but I don't now what else to do. They can't both stay inside or outside because the older guy might fight him. So it's difficult to know what to do.

Well the situation now is myself and my sister have been taking the 2 dogs out for walks on leashes on mutual territory but the older dog just barks and growls at the new dog and I don't feel so confident that it will get better. I know he's annoyed that the new guy is inside (even though my older dog doesn't even like being inside a lot) but I can't leave the new guy outside because they will fight so I don't know what else to do. The new guy keeps barking inside too which makes it worse. I'm trying to stop him but goodness he's stubborn! I'm just anxious and wondering if this will ever work out. I don't want either dog in distress. I'll keep the mutual territory walks going but right now I just don't feel good about it.

It as others have said takes time. Often a lot of time. We had this when collie came as wee dog was furious.

They need time to get used to each other. Early days yet. Very early days indeed,

Six years on there is still jealousy; they are dogs after all. There is still noise over beds etc, but they are where they seek to be and respond to NO.

Can you not sleep them in separate rooms inside? We did this for a long time. Now they bed hop as they please.

I used to worry that they would hurt each other; but never was blood drawn.

And if one is absent now, the other frets. When collie went missing eleve days in a storm, it was wee dog who alerted me to her nearing the house.

Lima Golf

OP, Just wondering...any improvements???