Gardai carrying Guns

monument

IRLConor - I wouldn't try to unarm NYC officers - tho maybe there is a case for better training without breaking the bank. While NYC has done a good job at lowering the crime rate, it's still a good bit more dangerous than Ireland.

Eru wrote: »

Quote where I called for routine arming please

Sorry - excuse me if I was wrong, but it looked that way from a number of your posts.

Locust

Only 9 injured, and none with life threatening injuries? Its not the worst outcome in the world, taking into account its one of the most crowded areas in NYC and probably has more cops than anywhere else!

Whatever happened that day, I presume after shooting the co-worker he raised his firearm at more people or the officers - it caused all those officers to open fire. Also worth bearing in mind that bullets will travel through a person and keep on going, & bullets love to fragment and ricochet off concrete surfaces. Thats the call those officers made - presumably (I wasn't there) - to shoot that guy in an attempt to save lives, whats the issue?

Qualitymark

I'd be hesitant to call the Guards if I thought they were going to turn up wearing guns, I'd have to say.

source

Qualitymark wrote: »

I'd be hesitant to call the Guards if I thought they were going to turn up wearing guns, I'd have to say.

Why?

Qualitymark

source wrote: »

Why?

Because the purpose of guns is to shoot people. I stay well away from anyone carrying a gun.

IRLConor

Qualitymark wrote: »

Because the purpose of guns is to shoot people. I stay well away from anyone carrying a gun.

As I said earlier in this thread:

IRLConor wrote: »

That's patently untrue. Some guns are made exclusively for killing people. Some guns (like mine) are made exclusively for shooting paper targets. Some guns are well suited to both.

An "all guns are killing machines" attitude is woefully naïve.

Qualitymark

If gardaí are going to carry guns suitable for shooting paper targets, that's fine by me, then ;D

IRLConor

Qualitymark wrote: »

If gardaí are going to carry guns suitable for shooting paper targets, that's fine by me, then ;D

Your statement sounded like a general policy, hence my answer.

When Gardai carry firearms, they do so in order to increase their ability to protect themselves and others from harm. Unless you consider yourself a threat to them you have nothing to fear.

I can understand some mistrust of the Gardai - I've first hand experience of incompetent members and rude members and downright unprofessional members - but I don't consider them to be a physical threat to me.

Qualitymark

In general I don't distrust the Gardaí, I regard most as intelligent, calm, courteous, thoughtful people who do their job very well.

But, also in general, it would be my observation that when people carry guns it tends to change their attitude; makes them less ready to negotiate and more ready to come the lámh láidir.

goldie fish

Qualitymark wrote: »

In general I don't distrust the Gardaí, I regard most as intelligent, calm, courteous, thoughtful people who do their job very well.

But, also in general, it would be my observation that when people carry guns it tends to change their attitude; makes them less ready to negotiate and more ready to come the lámh láidir.

You have never met any hunters then?

Iwannahurl

Qualitymark wrote: »

In general I don't distrust the Gardaí, I regard most as intelligent, calm, courteous, thoughtful people who do their job very well.

But, also in general, it would be my observation that when people carry guns it tends to change their attitude; makes them less ready to negotiate and more ready to come the lámh láidir.

I'm not sure which of the developed world's police forces are routinely armed, but the ones I've seen certainly look like they mean business (ie give an impression of authority and effectiveness).

I'd also be inclined towards the view that being armed could potentially make (some) police officers (in some jurisdictions) "less ready to negotiate and more ready to come the lámh láidir".

It reminds me of the introduction of tasers in the US. When it was originally proposed that police there would be issued with tasers, one of the arguments in favour of this "non-lethal" technology was that it would lead to a reduction in the number of people shot by police. IIRC this was not what happened. The number of people shot did not drop significantly, whereas a whole new class of tasered people was created. I recall hearing this being discussed by US broadcaster Rachel Maddow, but I can't find a direct source just now.

That said, I doubt there's a consistent causal relationship between police being armed and the nature and extent of deaths due to being shot by police. There must be other factors involved, such as (I'm just guessing here) policies in relation to armed response by police, type of police training, availability of guns among the citizenry, socio-cultural factors relating to gun use etc.

For example, I simply can't imagine anything remotely like the Marikana Massacre ever occurring in Ireland, and I doubt that there are American (pro rata) levels of police shootings in, say, Sweden.

source

Qualitymark wrote: »

In general I don't distrust the Gardaí, I regard most as intelligent, calm, courteous, thoughtful people who do their job very well.

But, also in general, it would be my observation that when people carry guns it tends to change their attitude; makes them less ready to negotiate and more ready to come the lámh láidir.

I don't know about that, I've met and talked with police in Italy and France, all of whom were armed and were really friendly and happy to stand and pose for pictures. Same in Austria, Czech Republic and Australia.

Just because a policeman is armed doesn't mean they're not going to be approachable. The police we're used to seeing armed are those from the USA, and no they don't come across very approachable. Very strict and very formal, but that's because of the culture in the USA.

I've been in the Army Reserve, and I've used a wide range of weapons, from pistols to anti aircraft cannons. It didn't change my attitude, it made me more situationally aware. Sure, I was more switched on when I had a rifle in my hands, but that was for safety nothing else.

Having said all that, it's your opinion I'm arguing against, and they usually say you can't argue with an opinion, but my experience says that your opinion is incorrect.

esf2012

source wrote: »

I don't know about that, I've met and talked with police in Italy and France, all of whom were armed and were really friendly and happy to stand

Agree fully. Many many agencies are very friendly and approachable. Pictures, chat, directions, etc. AGS may have a reputation for this but we are certainly not alone.

and as for Armed police = gun crime, that flies in the face of global statistics where many armed police operate in countries with lower gun crime than here.

Zambia

Qualitymark wrote: »

Because the purpose of guns is to shoot people. I stay well away from anyone carrying a gun.

I have met several people who are just not comfortable around firearms.

I can understand completely.

Manic Moran

Zambia wrote: »

I have met several people who are just not comfortable around firearms.

I can understand completely.

I am reminded a little bit of the TED talk by the Chief of the Dutch Armed Forces.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LjAsM1vAhW0

"Being so close to this gun may make you feel uneasy. It may even feel scary. A real gun, at a few feet's distance. [...] Let us cherish the fact that probably most of you have never been close to a gun. [...] Guns are not a part of our lives"

(It's a good talk, by the way)

He is correct, they do make people uneasy, but this is simply because of ignorance. It's not Joe Bloggs' fault, if the man isn't exposed routinely to firearms, either through his personal use or simply by seeing them on a daily basis on a Gard's belt, it's not really his fault. But a Frenchman won't think twice about the concept of a Gendarme with a gun. It's routine, a tool of his trade. After a while, it would become routine to an Irishman. They'll look past the pistol to the Garda wearing it. What's particularly amusing is that it seems that the General has fallen afoul of this as well. Either he doesn't consider the sidearms that Dutch police wear as 'real guns', or he is so used to them being on the streets and seeing them every day that he has completely forgotten to consider them.

NTM

2218219

Random wrote: »

i remember watching a road wars episode where 2 of the uk (unarmed) cops went to the states to go around with some american cops for a few weeks. the 2 uk lads chased down and detained an armed suspect while the american cops arrived later (they couldnt keep up or react quick enough?), guns drawn, wondernig wtf the uk lads were up to.

sometimes its best not to take it as 100% what you see on TV in my opinion.

monument

2218219 wrote: »

sometimes its best not to take it as 100% what you see on TV in my opinion.

Sure, so the armed suspect on a cop show was a really an actor, or what?

Manic Moran

The US attitude is probably something like... "Well, if you want to charge down a gun, it's your funeral..."

When it was originally proposed that police there would be issued with tasers, one of the arguments in favour of this "non-lethal" technology was that it would lead to a reduction in the number of people shot by police. IIRC this was not what happened.

That's because whoever poposed that argument either had no clue what he was talking about, or was relying on the hope that the audience had no clue what he was talking about. The rules for the use of lethal force haven't changed with the introduction of Taser, Taser is not a substitute for a firearm.

You weren't going to use lethal force if there wasn't a lethal threat to you or others before Taser came out, and you certainly weren't about to use less-than-lethal force with a Taser when you're faced with a lethal threat to yourself. What -will- have reduced is the number of people given a clout with the baton, and the amount of personnel physically tackled. Taser is safer for the officer than close-quarters combat, and has less lasting effect on the recipient (Also looks cleaner and less violent in the newspaper photographs)

NTM

MEMBER12

I think it is passed time to arm the Gardai. I believe that members would even pay to purchase their own firearms. Guns are coming into daily life more and more, and as I said on another post life is getting cheaper day by day. It is only a matter of time before an unarmed member is shot or killed responding to an armed incident. I think that the GRA should get off their arse now and start balloting members. This should be brought before the Dail. We need to follow the Canadian system, Gardai need protection now before it is too late. Let's have this discussion now in the cold light of day, rather than in the heat of the moment after a member has been shot.

bluecode

I got used to guns in the FCA, before that I had the I saw them in terms of their mystique. Which is how people who don't handle them see them. I remember once talking to a Garda Sergeant, female, lesbian. I told her I would have long since applied to be a detective in her position. I mention the lesbian thing because she is a bit mannish. She demurred, it was the gun thing that put her off. Detectives carry guns you see. I was puzzled because to me a gun was simply a tool, no mystique. Just a tool. She like so many Irish had built it up in her mind as a scary thing. I just saw a lump of metal that was a bit of fun to fire sometimes. Sometime you needed it to protect yourself.

Recently though I was driving through Dublin, one of the bad areas. There was a bit of keruffle ahead. As I passed there was a detective with a notebook taking notes. He was casually dressed, shirt no jacket but on his waist was a belt and his holstered Sig Sauer P226. I was taken aback, it seemed so out of context. I worried slightly that someone would take it off him.

I lived in Dublin most of my life but never saw that before. Although I had seen detectives with Smith and Wesson revolvers. Plus routinely I see armed units in their Volvos.

Despite that I think the Garda should be routinely armed. We in this country we have built up a ridiculous over the top reaction to guns. Meanwhile in the rest of Europe it's normal. No one thinks twice about it. Even security guards in shops carry guns in some countries.

We give the gun too much mystique. It's just a tool at the end of the day.

Zambia

Rest assured they dont just pop out of the Holster. (I hope)

Touch a Police Officers firearm or kick a police dog.

You reflect on these actions later in hospital, goal or worse.

480905

If they can't afford to replace their fleet , they'll hardly be able to afford to arm and train 10,000 odd gardai. The Sig mentioned in previous posts is on average €700, working out at 7 mil just to buy the weapons . Not happening I wouldn't say. Any members have an opinion on this.....

Witcher

480905 wrote: »

If they can't afford to replace their fleet , they'll hardly be able to afford to arm and train 10,000 odd gardai. The Sig mentioned in previous posts is on average €700, working out at 7 mil just to buy the weapons . Not happening I wouldn't say. Any members have an opinion on this.....

The unit cost would be far below that if there were 14000 of them being bought. When the army changed to the USP, you can bet they didn't pay the market rate at the time. I believe police departments in the US get their service pistols for 1/2 or 3/4 price depending on the manufacturer and get 1 in every 10 free and they wouldnt be buying 14000 of them at once. The biggest factor would be the training.

Locust

It would be more like 6000 or 7000 Gardai. Glock seems to be the most widely used (globally), cost effective and easiest to use/train with (seriously after a year or so of no training you could still pick it up and score hits on target at a reasonable range). Way cheaper and handier than SIG. If routine Gardai were armed - it would certainly bring the level of training/discipline up a notch with other EU counterparts.

IRLConor

Locust wrote: »

Glock seems to be the most widely used (globally), cost effective and easiest to use/train with (seriously after a year or so of no training you could still pick it up and score hits on target at a reasonable range). Way cheaper and handier than SIG.

I doubt they'd switch handgun providers. They're not going to throw out/sell the SIGs and they wouldn't want two sets of spares, two sets of training programmes, etc. The real costs in expanding the use of guns by the Gardai would be in training, ammunition and spare parts not the initial purchase price of the firearms themselves. You only buy the gun once but you keep spending on parts, ammo and training.

The additional costs due to diversion of manpower into training plus increased ammunition expenditure would probably be enough to scupper wider arming of the force even ignoring the initial purchase price for the extra pistols they'd need to buy.

kub

480905 wrote: »

If they can't afford to replace their fleet , they'll hardly be able to afford to arm and train 10,000 odd gardai. The Sig mentioned in previous posts is on average €700, working out at 7 mil just to buy the weapons . Not happening I wouldn't say. Any members have an opinion on this.....

Lets touch reality here lads, the latest talk of another batch of Garda stations to be shut down and as mentioned above the fleet issues, its not going to happen.

The RSU's around the country are there for a reason. Also the fact that crime in general is down and that we are jumping through the IMF/ECB hoops.

goldie fish

Locust wrote: »

It would be more like 6000 or 7000 Gardai. Glock seems to be the most widely used (globally), cost effective and easiest to use/train with (seriously after a year or so of no training you could still pick it up and score hits on target at a reasonable range). Way cheaper and handier than SIG. If routine Gardai were armed - it would certainly bring the level of training/discipline up a notch with other EU counterparts.

Anyone who thinks a glock is a suitable sidearm has never fired one.
Walther P99 has been in service with the regular units for some years and all are happy with them. Firearms training with police forces is 10% target shooting, 90% how to not need to draw it. It isn't for shooting targets police have them.

MEMBER12

Just to touch on the training issue, if the Gardai were to purchase x thousand firearms, the cost would be much lower that the commercial rate, plus training would be free for a number of instructors. This is how it worked for the asp and pepper spray. However due to the financial times we are in it will most likely not happen. This is why I believe that Gardai would front up the money for their own weapons, with maybe a tax refund at a later date?

Manic Moran

Zambia wrote: »

Rest assured they dont just pop out of the Holster. (I hope)

Depends on the holster. A Level IV such as http://www.policehq.com/Products/SF-6070 is designed for a specific pistol and has a number of different requirements to get the pistol out. For example, this particular holster requires that once the hand is on the pistol's grip in preparation to draw, the thumb is rocked back and forward, the middile finger is pressing down on a release tab, and the pistol must be rocked a certain way in order to be released. Sounds more complicated than it is, the draw is still quite fast when you're practiced, but if you don't know how the holster works, you can be spending a minute or two trying to figure it out even if the cop isn't beating on you to keep you away from it. Of course, if the detectives are using a Level 1 holster which keeps the gun in by combination of friction and gravity alone, that's a different matter.

Anyone who thinks a glock is a suitable sidearm has never fired one.

Plenty of forces use them. I don't like them personally, but I see nothing wrong with them on the practical side.

NTM

MEMBER12

Well the way things are we will have to wait till there is a massive incident here before the police are armed.

Motorist

I find around 40% of Gardai to be completely unprofessional when manning standard checkpoints. No thanks, I dont want them routinely carrying firearms too.

Witcher

MEMBER12 wrote: »

Well the way things are we will have to wait till there is a massive incident here before the police are armed.

One incident wouldn't exactly be a good case for giving a firearm to 14000 people.

MEMBER12

I agree with you however, we need to talk about it now while everyone is calm rather then in the heat of the moment. Drugs are being shipped into Ireland all the time, and firearms as a bonus. It will eventually be seen as a must have for every up and coming scumbag. then what do we do.

savagecabbages

I think a more practical (more acceptable anyway...) way to tackle the culture of criminals arming themselves would be to at least properly sentence those caught in possession of firearms, and ramp up massively the mandatory punishment for any gun related crime.

Gardai are catching these criminals, and they aren't being sufficiently punished by the courts.

Witcher

savagecabbages wrote: »

I think a more practical (more acceptable anyway...) way to tackle the culture of criminals arming themselves would be to at least properly sentence those caught in possession of firearms, and ramp up massively the mandatory punishment for any gun related crime.

Gardai are catching these criminals, and they aren't being sufficiently punished by the courts.

The minimum sentence just for having a bullet with intent to endanger life is 10 years upon conviction and people still do it.

The DOJ tactic when dealing with gun crime is to crack down on people holding them legally:pac:

MEMBER12

You don't even get 10 years for killing a Garda? Judges are a law onto themselves. I don't think it will ever change, solicitors will not let it happen.

Zambia

Manic Moran wrote: »

Of course, if the detectives are using a Level 1 holster which keeps the gun in by combination of friction and gravity alone, that's a different matter.

Plenty of forces use them. I don't like them personally, but I see nothing wrong with them on the practical side.

NTM

Logic would dictate that any widespread issue would be accompanied by L3 Rigs.

Manic Moran

Blay wrote: »

One incident wouldn't exactly be a good case for giving a firearm to 14000 people.

Would be if you were the number 14001 who ended up being the trigger event to give to the other 14,000.

kub

MEMBER12 wrote: »

You don't even get 10 years for killing a Garda? Judges are a law onto themselves. I don't think it will ever change, solicitors will not let it happen.

You are correct, it wouldn't happen, these scum bags are customers of their solicitors. So when a client is locked up for 10 years its not very good for Mr Solicitor's or Mr Barrister's bank balance. Especially when the said scum bag could be left out after a few months to carry on doing what he does best.

Its good for business all round.

MEMBER12

It's all about the money,I agree 100%. Imagine if the money seized by the Gardai was put back into the Gardai. That would piss off all the scumbags.

kub

MEMBER12 wrote: »

It's all about the money,I agree 100%. Imagine if the money seized by the Gardai was put back into the Gardai. That would piss off all the scumbags.

That is the way it should be, I for one grin every time I see the RSU BMW X5 which was seized by CAB from that nice family in Limerick, while it passes me by decorated in Garda livery.

MEMBER12

There should be more of this, It is what pisses off the scum the most. I'm just watching the news, and they are saying how crystal meth and crack are taking off in Ireland. They are now being made in Ireland, and how cheap they are, and how aggressive it makes people. Watch the news later on today. These are the drugs that cause the most problems in the states. The most dangerous to the user and to the police there. When it takes hold here, and I believe it will, it will cause untold problems to the understaffed under-equipped Gardai. Drug users going ape **** with increased strength. I can't believe it is now been made in Ireland. Such a sad turn of events.

dutopia

I'm still not sure about this idea, it's something that requires a lot of thought as it would change the face of policing in Ireland. I do agree that the statement "If the guards carried guns the criminals will start, too" is complete crap. Most criminals these days intent on committing serious crimes such as robbery or those in gangs have firearms.

At least, shouldn't the guards have tasers?

dutopia

kub wrote: »

That is the way it should be, I for one grin every time I see the RSU BMW X5 which was seized by CAB from that nice family in Limerick, while it passes me by decorated in Garda livery.

Haha I like this. The criminal assets bureau money paying for policing!

MEMBER12

I was just looking up Ice/Crystel Meth on Youtube. Look at the news today on RTE, telling everyone how cheap and easy it is to make and sell. They are saying it is ten times cheaper than Heroin, and a hundred times more addictive.Users are so paranoid, aggressive, not sure now we should go half way for the tazer. I really think a firearm is the way to go. I was listening to a doctor describe this Ice from Australia, and let me tell ya the stuff he was saying was scary. He said it took 6 people to hold down one guy who was around 7 stone. This guy was so violent. Now let's imagine a worst case scenario, imagine he had a knife running at a Garda? I hate that this has come to Ireland, our country is starting to change for the worst!

kub

dutopia wrote: »

Haha I like this. The criminal assets bureau money paying for policing!

I thought that X5 has bullet proof glass or other such novelties necessary for that particular pharamacutical distribution business. Anyway, what better use for it. Probably worth more to AGS than anyone else.

MEMBER12

My point is that we should have this conversation now in the cold light of day, rather than in the heat of the moment after someone has been shot, a Garda or a member of the public. Watch RTE today, check out the segment on Ice/Crystel Meth? Then take 5 minutes and look it up on youtube. This is probably the most dangerous drug in the world. It is here in Dublin now, cheaper than any other drug,and highly addictive. How can unarmed Gardai deal with these people now, it will be the unarmed member, probably alone that will come up against these users. Don't think that the public will help when a Garda is getting attacked it does not happen, I'm speaking from experience. That Garda is on his own till backup arrives.Let's figure this out now before it becomes an epidemic.

Witcher

When there's a need for Gardai to be issued firearms they'll get them, at the moment.there is no need, there's no point issuing firearms if Gardai are not encountering situations which demand them. When detectives, RSU's and the ERU are being called out daily and having to discharge their firearms...then..there will be a need to arm regular Gardai.

ladybird.12

war_child wrote: »

I have to say with all honesty i dread the idea of all guards being armed ....most cant deal with the small amount of beat power they have and on occasion cant resist from givin someone a good kickin just coz they didnt get laid lastnight ...arming guards is NOT an option ...and i would strongly protest against this if it ever arose in Ireland ..

Please Grow-UP. Im sure you would be the first to complain if they didnt respond to a call from you in time !

MEMBER12

There is a need, more armed gangs, more violent criminals, the IRA at it again, Ice/Crystel Meth is here. Are you just waiting for another Anthony Cambell, and I'm not trying to be smart here. Let us put it out there, have a vote both within the Gardai and the Dail. Talk about it now before some incident happens? Guns are coming in with drugs all the time. How long before we have turf wars, the IRA are trying to take a cut. Do you think these drug gangs are gonna roll over.