Gardai carrying Guns

limklad

0325422 wrote: »

Another "are you here under oath" merchant.. Excellent

What a demeaning comment from you and supported by goldie fish in which he thanks your comment, which degrades the honour of the Gardai and degrades the work of most honourable Members of the Gardai who swear by their Oath who stay within the confines of the law and fight and keep our street and homes safe as much as they can. Comments like this allow and approve of corrupt Gardai to get away with criminal activities such as thuggery and assaults, just because they are in a bad mood or believe they can do what they like that they have to power to. Having a bad mood does not give me the right to beat a Garda or any member of the public. How proud of you seeing bad tempered Gardai breaching the rights of safely of others, just because they or you do not like the person they are beating. I do not like everybody, but it does not gives me the right to abuse others or degrade them or you. I and you and everybody in this world have the power with our bodies to beat, humiliate, degrade abuse anyone, It does not gives us the right to do so, that why we have laws, to put in consequences when people abuses others.

Over the decades up to 1982, and became a criminal offence in 1996, where corporal punishment in schools where teacher beat kids for not able to learn or was in a bad mood and was able to do so legally up to then. Those corrupt teachers believe it was for the "Common good" and had no problem in fooling others to comply or to approve of their bad behaviour, that they were better and knows best because they knew "education", they believe they "know best" attitude allow them to get away with gross assaults and other abuses, believed that they were better than the common community and smarter than the helpless and defend less kids they beat, leaving heavy bruises and certain Gardai who approve of that bad behaviour also believe it was the kids own fault for been beaten, that the kids deserve to be beaten and deserved to be verbally and emotional abused.

Nobody deserve to be abused.

Absolute power corrupts

Just because thuggery is big in certain parts of our Society does not give the Gardai or any honour bound profession the Rights to behave like Thugs.

You do seem by your comment that morality what is truly good for the common good is an big issue for you.

No wonder our society is in such a bad state.

Pappa Charlie

source wrote: »

Police officers the world over call the shifts they work, tours of duty. It's got nothing to do with adopting an aggressive military mentality.

It's a part of the jobs lexicon. All large organisations develop their own form of language, which to means nothing (or something very different) to outsiders. Yes some of the policing vocabulary is taken from the military, most of it is taken from legislation, and the rest is local slang.

In Limerick a meal break is called "the grub", in Dublin it's called "Refs" or "refreshments". A drunk driver is a 49, a Garda is a mule or polisman, and there are others like long numbers, compol and pulse. Oh and yes shifts are called tours.

Most of what I've said above will be foreign to some members of this board, and to others the meanings of the words will be as clear as day.

So lets not try to make out like I'm advocating aggressive tactics, just because you don't know the lingo.

Be careful or you'll have to "crease a half sheet"

.243

Pappa Charlie wrote: »

Be careful or you'll have to "crease a half sheet"

and crease that half again just to be sure !!!

goldie fish

limklad wrote: »

What a demeaning comment from you and supported by goldie fish in which he thanks your comment, which degrades the honour of the Gardai and degrades the work of most honourable Members of the Gardai who swear by their Oath who stay within the confines of the law and fight and keep our street and homes safe as much as they can. Comments like this allow and approve of corrupt Gardai to get away with criminal activities such as thuggery and assaults, just because they are in a bad mood or believe they can do what they like that they have to power to. Having a bad mood does not give me the right to beat a Garda or any member of the public. How proud of you seeing bad tempered Gardai breaching the rights of safely of others, just because they or you do not like the person they are beating. I do not like everybody, but it does not gives me the right to abuse others or degrade them or you. I and you and everybody in this world have the power with our bodies to beat, humiliate, degrade abuse anyone, It does not gives us the right to do so, that why we have laws, to put in consequences when people abuses others.

Over the decades up to 1982, and became a criminal offence in 1996, where corporal punishment in schools where teacher beat kids for not able to learn or was in a bad mood and was able to do so legally up to then. Those corrupt teachers believe it was for the "Common good" and had no problem in fooling others to comply or to approve of their bad behaviour, that they were better and knows best because they knew "education", they believe they "know best" attitude allow them to get away with gross assaults and other abuses, believed that they were better than the common community and smarter than the helpless and defend less kids they beat, leaving heavy bruises and certain Gardai who approve of that bad behaviour also believe it was the kids own fault for been beaten, that the kids deserve to be beaten and deserved to be verbally and emotional abused.

Nobody deserve to be abused.

Just because thuggery is big in certain parts of our Society does not give the Gardai or any honour bound profession the Rights to behave like Thugs.

You do seem by your comment that morality what is truly good for the common good is an big issue for you.

No wonder our society is in such a bad state.

Society is in the state it is in because nobody has any respect for authority, not because authority has no respect for the rights of the individual to do whatever the hell they feel like.

Iwannahurl

goldie fish wrote: »

Society is in the state it is in because nobody has any respect for authority, not because authority has no respect for the rights of the individual to do whatever the hell they feel like.

We're a bit off the gun issue here, but who or what is that authority, and what might motivate people to have respect for them or it?

.

goldie fish

A change in values. Moving away from the mé féin culture encouraged from an early age.

Iwannahurl

Just to clarify, who are the authorities you are thinking of?

With regard to the "mé féin culture" who do you feel is encouraging it?

Pappa Charlie

Iwannahurl wrote: »

We're a bit off the gun issue here, but who or what is that authority, and what might motivate people to have respect for them or it?

.

I think alot of ordinary people in this country became total assholes during the celtic tiger, alot of kids got everything they wanted when they wanted it and grew up with a dickhead attitude, "No" was not a word they were used to or indeed also many of their greedy parents during that period were the same. Many had a huge sense of entitlement and anyone in "Authority" like the police who are "authorised" with policing the state or teachers who taught them and had to deal with these pricks were the probelm and didnt deserve respect when they checked these people. I'm a policeman and I treat everyone equally but if you want me to respect you then treat me, others, their property and the laws of the land with respect and you'll get it back. When you dont you get what is appropiate in the circumstances and if you dont like it you can contact the ombudsman or Joe Joe Duffy or whoever you like. If you could spend a couple of nights in the rear of a patrol car in any town in Ireland watching the work of Gardai you would soon change your tune!

Iwannahurl

Pappa Charlie wrote: »

I think alot of ordinary people in this country became total assholes during the celtic tiger, alot of kids got everything they wanted when they wanted it and grew up with a dickhead attitude, "No" was not a word they were used to or indeed also many of their greedy parents during that period were the same. Many had a huge sense of entitlement and anyone in "Authority" like the police who are "authorised" with policing the state or teachers who taught them and had to deal with these pricks were the probelm and didnt deserve respect when they checked these people.

I guess that's some of the corrosive individualism that President Higgins has talked about. Personally I don't think the sense of entitlement is confined to the children of the Celtic Tiger. I also believe that accountability and authority have to go together.

Pappa Charlie wrote: »

I'm a policeman and I treat everyone equally but if you want me to respect you then treat me, others, their property and the laws of the land with respect and you'll get it back. When you dont you get what is appropiate in the circumstances and if you dont like it you can contact the ombudsman or Joe Joe Duffy or whoever you like. If you could spend a couple of nights in the rear of a patrol car in any town in Ireland watching the work of Gardai you would soon change your tune!

I presume the "you" there is the general you?

This not being about the guns issue it's probably best left for another thread, but my own view is that the necessary respect is a bit unevenly distributed as well as being generally thin on the ground.

pah

http://m.urbandictionary.com/#define?term=celtic%20tiger%20cub

I think this just about sums it up.

Pappa Charlie

Iwannahurl wrote: »

I guess that's some of the corrosive individualism that President Higgins has talked about. Personally I don't think the sense of entitlement is confined to the children of the Celtic Tiger. I also believe that accountability and authority have to go together.






I presume the "you" there is the general you?

This not being about the guns issue it's probably best left for another thread, but my own view is that the necessary respect is a bit unevenly distributed as well as being generally thin on the ground.

No

Iwannahurl

Pappa Charlie wrote: »

No

Whose tune are you referring to then, and what tune is it exactly?

Manic Moran

Zambia wrote: »

Do you not see the utter contradiction in your post.

You agree Frontline police need a armed response capable of quick deployment. You think the Frontline troops should not be armed.

The armed response units are employed from the same frontline police.

That, and you have that perennial problem with a 'reaction force' concept. As they say over here, when seconds count, backup is only minutes away.

Or, to take a different adage, a good enough solution now is better than the perfect solution several minutes in the future.

NTM

misterdarkness

Random wrote: »

i wonder if we armed all the gardai, would we have cops that act like the american ones do on shows like "cops"?

i remember watching a road wars episode where 2 of the uk (unarmed) cops went to the states to go around with some american cops for a few weeks. the 2 uk lads chased down and detained an armed suspect while the american cops arrived later (they couldnt keep up or react quick enough?), guns drawn, wondernig wtf the uk lads were up to.

there seems to be a bit of a "hands on" approach to some policing by unarmed forces while if you look at the americans (for example) its all guns drawn escalating minor things into big messes in a hurry. at the end of the day the cop seems to either shoot or have to holster his weapon and chase anyway.

i think it would be a good idea to arm all the gardai, provided they (most of them anyway!) continue to use a bit of the common sense approach and dont turn into those american (the ones protrayed on the reality tv shows anyway) cops that are just too gun happy or taser happy for no good reason.

maybe for another thread but give the gardai the equipment and the manpower they need and stop paying over inflated pensions to politions who are still ****in working.

I agree. I'm a guard and I would vote now to be armed. I work on my own a lot in very rural area and have had damn hairy situations in the past.

To be fair to american police everyone and their granny has a gun over there and there is a real chance with any call of being shot at so I see why they are quick to have hands on gun.

But we need to look at other European models like German France or even the north . You don't hear of police shootings often there. Its security for us and reassurance for public that the police can deal with any situstion. As it stand I've had stolen cars driven at me from lads trying yo get away from burglaries. Would they try and drive over me if there was a cross hair on their body? Obviously human instint takes over and they surrender before it turns lethal

misterdarkness

war_child wrote: »

I have to say with all honesty i dread the idea of all guards being armed ....most cant deal with the small amount of beat power they have and on occasion cant resist from givin someone a good kickin just coz they didnt get laid lastnight ...arming guards is NOT an option ...and i would strongly protest against this if it ever arose in Ireland ..

Good man yourself. Good luck with that

misterdarkness

.243 wrote: »

and crease that half again just to be sure !!!

Cos if you don't you get blocked

MEMBER12

Just checking the news today, was an unarmed Garda shot at in Portmarnock? Reports are saying two shots were fired. Really how long will we allow this to go on. It is time to have a referendum on this. Let's put it to a vote. I believe it is time to arm the Gardai. I believe it is time to follow best practice around the world, I would vote to follow the Canadian system. Let's have this vote before a Garda gets shot. How many dead Gardai should it take before we demand a fully resourced police FORCE?

Mr Simpson

MEMBER12 wrote: »

Just checking the news today, was an unarmed Garda shot at in Portmarnock? Reports are saying two shots were fired. Really how long will we allow this to go on. It is time to have a referendum on this. Let's put it to a vote. I believe it is time to arm the Gardai. I believe it is time to follow best practice around the world, I would vote to follow the Canadian system. Let's have this vote before a Garda gets shot. How many dead Gardai should it take before we demand a fully resourced police FORCE?

It doesn't require a change in constitution, no referendum necessary. It just requires the government to get off their ass and change policy.

MagicSean

MEMBER12 wrote: »

Just checking the news today, was an unarmed Garda shot at in Portmarnock? Reports are saying two shots were fired. Really how long will we allow this to go on. It is time to have a referendum on this. Let's put it to a vote. I believe it is time to arm the Gardai. I believe it is time to follow best practice around the world, I would vote to follow the Canadian system. Let's have this vote before a Garda gets shot. How many dead Gardai should it take before we demand a fully resourced police FORCE?

You'd probably be surprised if you knew how often unarmed Gardaí get shot at.

And i can't see any major changes coming any time soon, not unless something really bad happens that shows a weakness in the organisation.

donvito99

Shots were fired at a Guard recently when an unarmed member intervened in a robbery in Portmarknock.

There's an example.

cursai

I think the vast majority of gardai, if they became armed would be terrified of the firearm they were holding on their person. Creating a sense of respect for it and certainly not abuse of it.
I think the culture or mentality when dealing with the public would have to change though. No more tussles on the ground outside a pub or letting a crowd gather around you. The gardai are a very personal kind of police force. If you know what I mean.
This I think would be the hardest attitude to change in relation to firearm safety.

MagicSean

cursai wrote: »

I think the vast majority of gardai, if they became armed would be terrified of the firearm they were holding on their person. Creating a sense of respect for it and certainly not abuse of it.
I think the culture or mentality when dealing with the public would have to change though. No more tussles on the ground outside a pub or letting a crowd gather around you. The gardai are a very personal kind of police force. If you know what I mean.
This I think would be the hardest attitude to change in relation to firearm safety.

There would definitely need to be an attitude of standing back and taking precautions. I think there would have to be a parallel introduction of tasers to avoid those struggles and tussles.

MEMBER12

I do not want to wait to see if there is a weakness in the Garda Siochana, or until some poor Garda is shot. Start a referendum now this should be talked about in the Dail. Let's get a move on. I think we should follow the Canadian system, proper training and respect should be given to the use of firearms. The public need to be informed properly of the dangers the Gardai are facing and may have to face in the future. Or we can just wait for some Garda to end up in a coffin, I know which one I would choose.

MEMBER12

It needs to be dealt with and my opinion is we need a referendum. I believe that this would be supported by the public, full support of the nation should be put behind this issue

MEMBER12

MagicSean wrote: »

You'd probably be surprised if you knew how often unarmed Gardaí get shot at.

And i can't see any major changes coming any time soon, not unless something really bad happens that shows a weakness in the organisation.

Do you really wanna wait for that incident to happen, I don't, I'm not giving out about your point, it's justI wanna get this issue dealt with. At the end of the day we could be talking about a murdered Garda today. Thank **** we are not.

cursai

Referendum or not. Which isn't needed by the way. There's no money to fund arming and training of gardai. The higher management aren't going to allow something which may lead the way to them having to pay for it.

monument

MEMBER12 wrote: »

Do you really wanna wait for that incident to happen, I don't, I'm not giving out about your point, it's justI wanna get this issue dealt with. At the end of the day we could be talking about a murdered Garda today. Thank **** we are not.

What about general members of the public, can they be armed too? If not everybody, why not:

Bank staff?

Security guards?

Business owners / managers who have to handle a lot of cash?

Good samaritans?

Anybody who has strong feelings of getting mugged / raped on the street?

Anybody who wants to protect their homes?

Anydody who lives more than 10mins from a Garda station?

K.Flyer

Shots were fired at an unarmed member of the Garda today when he attempted to stop a robbery in Portmarnock.
One person has been arrested.

Apart from the arming debate it will be interesting to see how harshly the judicial system deals with the arrested person if found guilty of both the robbery and shooting at the Garda.

So, the question is, if the same Garda in this situation today was armed, who here believes that that he would have been well within his rights to return fire?

Personally I say Yes, as his and other lives were in danger.

BTW, fair play to the Garda, even after being shot at he still went after them.

goldie fish

monument wrote: »

What about general members of the public, can they be armed too? If not everybody, why not:

Bank staff?

Security guards?

Business owners / managers who have to handle a lot of cash?

Good samaritans?

Anybody who has strong feelings of getting mugged / raped on the street?

Anybody who wants to protect their homes?

Anydody who lives more than 10mins from a Garda station?

DoJ etc have manufactured the laws to solve a problem that never existed, in banning the ownership of handguns. I think the real reasoning was it would look bad for members of the public to be legally better armed than the Gardai.

MEMBER12

In relation to the money I think the Gardai should look at paying for the firearms out of their own cash, and then get a rebate at the end of the year, This would help cushion the blow for the money being spent. It would also help moving this along. It is time to have an armed Police force to deal with the ever increasing armed criminals on our street. Today some armed scumbag robbed a finical institution, two shots were fired but nobody was injured. Would we look at this differently if a member of the public, or a Garda was injured? In relation to the referendum, we may not need it, but if it is put to a vote and it is backed then it will be so much harder for the government not to act on it.

MEMBER12

K.Flyer wrote: »

Shots were fired at an unarmed member of the Garda today when he attempted to stop a robbery in Portmarnock.
One person has been arrested.

Apart from the arming debate it will be interesting to see how harshly the judicial system deals with the arrested person if found guilty of both the robbery and shooting at the Garda.

So, the question is, if the same Garda in this situation today was armed, who here believes that that he would have been well within his rights to return fire?

Personally I say Yes, as his and other lives were in danger.

BTW, fair play to the Garda, even after being shot at he still went after them.

I believe he would have been well within his right to fire under those conditions. I also believe that the scumbag would not have fired if he knew an armed Garda was outside. Well done to the boys in blue.

MagicSean

monument wrote: »

What about general members of the public, can they be armed too? If not everybody, why not:

Bank staff?

Security guards?

Business owners / managers who have to handle a lot of cash?

Good samaritans?

Anybody who has strong feelings of getting mugged / raped on the street?

Anybody who wants to protect their homes?

Anydody who lives more than 10mins from a Garda station?

What relevence is that?

MEMBER12 wrote: »

In relation to the money I think the Gardai should look at paying for the firearms out of their own cash, and then get a rebate at the end of the year, This would help cushion the blow for the money being spent. It would also help moving this along. It is time to have an armed Police force to deal with the ever increasing armed criminals on our street. Today some armed scumbag robbed a finical institution, two shots were fired but nobody was injured. Would we look at this differently if a member of the public, or a Garda was injured? In relation to the referendum, we may not need it, but if it is put to a vote and it is backed then it will be so much harder for the government not to act on it.

Or Gardaí could ask Santa to deliver them.

monument

MEMBER12 wrote: »

I believe he would have been well within his right to fire under those conditions. I also believe that the scumbag would not have fired if he knew an armed Garda was outside. Well done to the boys in blue.

Scumbags never fire on general armed police elsewhere? Well, we know that's not true.

MEMBER12

monument wrote: »

Scumbags never fire on general armed police elsewhere? Well, we know that's not true.

We are not talking about crime and criminals elsewhere, we are talking about our lot. They are cowards, they won't pick a fight unless they have the upper hand. The Gardai should always always have the upper hand.

Witcher

K.Flyer wrote: »

So, the question is, if the same Garda in this situation today was armed, who here believes that that he would have been well within his rights to return fire?

There's no doubt would have been right to return fire, I mean if they couldn't fire when someone is firing at them when could they fire? If this was the US, we'd be reading about when the funeral was being held for the robber.

Lets face it, when firearms are introduced for all Gardai, the first time they shoot someone in this situation there will be a load of people shouting 'Boo! Should have shot him in the leg! Garda brutality'..it's just inevitable. People here aren't used to the Gardai killing people...even after the post office raid in Lusk a few years ago there was murder over the Gardai shooting them.

Read the reactions of Irish people to cops shooting dead a guy in Times Square a few months back...absolutely ignorant of how police employ firearms in reality as compared to movies. One of the hardest aspects will be how people here will adapt to the guards having them. I anticipate I will be rolling my eyes non stop when the tabloids go on about the Gardai's new 'high powered automatic handguns' and how they 'blasted' someone robber somewhere...and then the Joe Duffy show's reaction....Jesus:pac:

MEMBER12

Blay wrote: »

There's no doubt would have been right to return fire, I mean if they couldn't fire when someone is firing at them when could they fire? If this was the US, we'd be reading about when the funeral was being held for the robber.

Lets face it, when firearms are introduced for all Gardai, the first time they shoot someone in this situation there will be a load of people shouting 'Boo! Should have shot him in the leg! Garda brutality'..it's just inevitable. People here aren't used to the Gardai killing people...even after the post office raid in Lusk a few years ago there was murder over the Gardai shooting them.

Read the reactions of Irish people to cops shooting dead a guy in Times Square a few months back...absolutely ignorant of how police employ firearms in reality as compared to movies. One of the hardest aspects will be how people here will adapt to the guards having them. I anticipate I will be rolling my eyes non stop when the tabloids go on about the Gardai's new 'high powered automatic handguns' and how they 'blasted' someone robber somewhere...and then the Joe Duffy show's reaction....Jesus:pac:

Agree with you 100%

MEMBER12

On the ten o'clock news it said that this guy was challenged by an unarmed uniformed Garda who was then shot at, he took cover and when he again tried to follow this scumbag he was shot at again. So much for these guys not shooting Gardai because they are unarmed. Also well done to the member of the public for following these guys with the Garda in his car. Gun and money retrieved, a job well done.

monument

MEMBER12 wrote: »

We are not talking about crime and criminals elsewhere, we are talking about our lot. They are cowards, they won't pick a fight unless they have the upper hand. The Gardai should always always have the upper hand.

Police do not aim to wound, they aim to kill. When a scumbag knows that there's a good change an officer is going to kill him, the scumbag will try his best to kill the officer first. It's that simple.

As for upper hand: The scumbag will also likely have more hours to spend in a woods somewhere to target practice, so he'll be the one with the upper hand.

Rovi

monument wrote: »

As for upper hand: The scumbag will also likely have more hours to spend in a woods somewhere to target practice, so he'll be the one with the upper hand.

Yep, it's a well known fact that these guys are highly skilled 'operators':
http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0323/collopyp.html

MEMBER12

The scumbag already tried to shoot the Garda twice, what planet are you on. The Gardai will have much better training if they are armed, get a life and stop hating on the Gardai, this scumbag put everyone in danger. The Garda was unarmed and in uniform and he was shot at twice.

monument

Rovi wrote: »

Yep, it's a well known fact that these guys are highly skilled 'operators':
http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0323/collopyp.html

Let me Google that for you.

monument

MEMBER12 wrote: »

The scumbag already tried to shoot the Garda twice, what planet are you on. The Gardai will have much better training if they are armed, get a life and stop hating on the Gardai, this scumbag put everyone in danger. The Garda was unarmed and in uniform and he was shot at twice.

I don't hate the gardai. Get a life and get over the idea that just because I don't want the force all armed means I have something against the the force.

Many officers don't get all the required driving training, so it's highly likely that there'd also be a lack of arms training.

You have yet to answer my question about arming the general population who are at risk of getting robbed, burgled, mugged, raped, or killed.....

Witcher

monument wrote: »

Many officers don't get all the required driving training, so it's highly likely that there'd also be a lack of arms training.

You really think they're going to put a pistol down in front of a person who has never even seen a gun in their life and say 'Take it...no training'? A regular person can't even get a firearm in Ireland without having undergone some form of competency training.

monument

Blay wrote: »

You really think they're going to put a pistol down in front of a person who has never even seen a gun in their life and say 'Take it...no training'? A regular person can't even get a firearm in Ireland without having undergone some form of competency training.

[A] Some form of training, and the right level of training, are two distinct things which can be a million miles away from each other.

Witcher

monument wrote: »

[A] Some form of training, and the right level of training, are two distinct things which can be a million miles away from each other.

The average firearm owner here isn't carrying their gun all day and engaging criminals with it so 'some' form of training will do, if they know where the safety is and where not to point it that's just about all they need. The average Garda's training would need to be more in depth and there is nothing to suggest they would not get the proper training..detectives get it at present dont they? Gardai received training when they got the ASP which is basically a stick when you get right down to it.

If the force is going to take a radical step such as this, a key factor in winning public support for the force now being armed is that they are seen to be able to use them safely and responsibly.

dorkacle

Zambia wrote: »

It always surprises me when this subject comes up. That so many people believe that issuing Irish police with firearms Will suddenly turn them into homicidal maniac's. An armed response unit is all well and good however when something escalates it normally escalates with very little warning.

I think it just shows the lack of faith the general public have in the Gardai to police themselves let alone the country....

Witcher

dorkacle wrote: »

I think it just shows the lack of faith the general public have in the Gardai to police themselves let alone the country....

It shows the ignorance of the Irish public about anything firearms related, people do not suddenly turn into murderers because they have a gun in their hand.

monument

Blay wrote: »

...there is nothing to suggest they would not get the proper training..detectives get it at present dont they?

Officers -- this year -- were still driving on the superintendent's permission five years on from when the inspectorate issued a report which was highly critical of the practice.

dorkacle

Blay wrote: »

It shows the ignorance of the Irish public about anything firearms related, people do not suddenly turn into murderers because they have a gun in their hand.

I never said they do turn into murders?

Witcher

monument wrote: »

Officers -- this year -- were still driving on the superintendent's permission five years on from when the inspectorate issued a report which was highly critical of the practice.

You can't really compare driving a car to using a firearm, with a gun you only have to move the first joint of your index finger and you have potentially taken someone's life, while driving a car is dangerous, it requires more than a slip of the index finger for something to go wrong.