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Handing back the keys

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  • 01-07-2012 4:05pm
    #1
    nino1
    Registered Users Posts: 826 ✭✭✭


    We brought a 1 bed apartment for €275,000 now worth €90,000.
    have started a family so a 1 bed in now far too small.
    If we hand back the keys to the bank and get the NE as an unsecured loan would there be much of a chance of getting some of the loan written off based on the new personal insolvency bill?

    Please just try to address the question and not let the thread turn into the same old arguements "just pay your debts" "nobody forced you to get a mortgage" "but its the banks fault" etc etc yawn yawn


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    #2
    mitosis
    Registered Users Posts: 2,000 ✭✭✭mitosis


    None whatsoever. You can pay your debts, therefore not insolvent.


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    #3
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    As said above, solvency is determined by your ability to meet your debts. The size of the debt is irrelevant so long as you can afford the repayments.

    You can artificially become insolvent by taking a dramatic reduction in salary (i.e. by going on the dole or taking a minimum wage job) and staying like that until your bankruptcy has been lifted.

    Not an easy few years by anyone's standards tbh.


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    #4
    StillWaters
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,799 ✭✭✭StillWaters


    I'm sorry, but I don't think there is anything in the PI Bill for you.

    You need to be engaged with MARP for at least 6 months, you need to provide a lot of documentation showing you cannot meet your bills / debts. Your debtors have to agree to it, and you face 6 years in penury and limbo and a destroyed credit rating.

    You haven't stated what your income is, but would one of the new NE mortgages suit? Have you spoken to your bank, some of them are doing quiet deals on debt writedown.


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    #5
    nino1
    Registered Users Posts: 826 ✭✭✭nino1


    i say "WE have an apartment" but its actually my wives who brought it before I even met her.
    She is the only person on the mortgage and the bank doesn't even know she is married.
    If she were to take time off to mind the kids and hence goes into arrears I assume that she would be in a better position to negotiate a debt write down?


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    #6
    mitosis
    Registered Users Posts: 2,000 ✭✭✭mitosis


    Ah, right. Well, I as a taxpayer would of course be delighted to take on your fraudulent debt. :(


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    #7
    strandroad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,676 ✭✭✭strandroad


    nino1 wrote: »
    i say "WE have an apartment" but its actually my wives who brought it before I even met her.
    She is the only person on the mortgage and the bank doesn't even know she is married.
    If she were to take time off to mind the kids and hence goes into arrears I assume that she would be in a better position to negotiate a debt write down?

    They would check and learn that she is married. They check background and go through every bill and receipt in such cases.


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    #8
    nino1
    Registered Users Posts: 826 ✭✭✭nino1


    mitosis wrote: »
    Ah, right. Well, I as a taxpayer would of course be delighted to take on your fraudulent debt. :(

    how is it a fraudulent debt?!!


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    #9
    nino1
    Registered Users Posts: 826 ✭✭✭nino1


    mhge wrote: »
    They would check and learn that she is married. They check background and go through every bill and receipt in such cases.

    surely if i did not sign for the mortgage then it has nothing to do with me?

    I assume since developers are signing over assets to their spouses which then cannot be touched that my wives debt is hers and has nothing to do with my income?


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    #10
    endacl
    Registered Users Posts: 22,306 ✭✭✭✭endacl


    nino1 wrote: »
    mitosis wrote: »
    Ah, right. Well, I as a taxpayer would of course be delighted to take on your fraudulent debt. :(

    how is it a fraudulent debt?!!
    He can pay it.

    Personal insolvency isn't a get out of jail free card. There's no magic wand.


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    #11
    amdublin
    Registered Users Posts: 20,653 ✭✭✭✭amdublin


    Yeah I know loads of people in scenarios similar to yourself.

    Difference is that they are just paying what they borrowed.

    Why can you and your wife not just do it too? After all that is what your wife committed to.


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    #12
    Tigger
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,705 ✭✭✭✭Tigger


    Ye are married so you can't go bankrupt separately
    Rent out the apt and rent a bigger place to raise the family
    When the bottom comes you will have good credit and will be able to get a suitable home for peanuts


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    #13
    Marcusm
    Registered Users Posts: 10,325 ✭✭✭✭Marcusm


    Tigger wrote: »
    Ye are married so you can't go bankrupt separately
    Rent out the apt and rent a bigger place to raise the family
    When the bottom comes you will have good credit and will be able to get a suitable home for peanuts

    I think you'll find that bankruptcy is personal, not joint.


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    #14
    endacl
    Registered Users Posts: 22,306 ✭✭✭✭endacl


    Marcusm wrote: »
    Tigger wrote: »
    Ye are married so you can't go bankrupt separately
    Rent out the apt and rent a bigger place to raise the family
    When the bottom comes you will have good credit and will be able to get a suitable home for peanuts

    I think you'll find that bankruptcy is personal, not joint.
    Not a bad suggestion, all the same.


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    #15
    Tigger
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,705 ✭✭✭✭Tigger


    So he's not liable on the debt as well

    I understand that she can go bankrupt but would the debt not simply be applied to him ?


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    #16
    StillWaters
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,799 ✭✭✭StillWaters


    I'm not sure how the bill will apply in your case, it still doesn't look like it will work as it's not really designed for PPRs.

    The debtor (bank) is unlikely to agree as there is sufficient household income to meet the debt.


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    #17
    nino1
    Registered Users Posts: 826 ✭✭✭nino1


    what are the facts in a case like this?
    If i did not sign for the mortgage can the bank take my income into account or not?


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    #18
    StillWaters
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,799 ✭✭✭StillWaters


    The mortgage is not your debt. Neither did you become liable for it upon marriage. However it is somewhat complicated by the fact it is the PPR and therefore the Family Home Act applies, so you do have some rights to it.

    However, when negoiating with the bank for MARP they can and will take household income into account.


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    #19
    the_syco
    Registered Users Posts: 37,300 ✭✭✭✭the_syco


    nino1 wrote: »
    We brought a 1 bed apartment for €275,000 now worth €90,000
    It doesn't matter how much it's worth now, your wife still has a debt that she must pay off. As for bankruptcy, although it may sound easy, but it'd put a major dent in the way you'd live.

    =-=

    You could try to get a mortgage with your wages only, and you may get it, but I can't see the bank taking both of your wages into account, as she already owns another property.

    =-=

    How long ago did she buy it, how much has she paid off, and how much left? If she has paid off half of it, and other properties have sold for around the €100k mark, talk to your bank about a small personal loan + sale of the apartment. They may say yes.


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    #20
    daltonmd
    Registered Users Posts: 1,246 ✭✭✭daltonmd


    nino1 wrote: »
    We brought a 1 bed apartment for €275,000 now worth €90,000.
    have started a family so a 1 bed in now far too small.
    If we hand back the keys to the bank and get the NE as an unsecured loan would there be much of a chance of getting some of the loan written off based on the new personal insolvency bill?

    Please just try to address the question and not let the thread turn into the same old arguements "just pay your debts" "nobody forced you to get a mortgage" "but its the banks fault" etc etc yawn yawn

    I don't think you would qualify for the new bill but this wouldn't stop you from talking to your lender.
    Would renting it out be an option for you? It could be a better solution for you if you could.


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    #21
    riclad
    Registered Users Posts: 8,184 ✭✭✭riclad


    Maybe you could rent out the apartment, rent a house
    .You, d have to submit a tax return as a landlord , a landlord can claim 75 per cent of interest as a tax credit ,up to a certain amount.
    There,s tax credits avaidable for anyone that rents a house or flat.
    In many areas theres cheap 2/3bed old houses for sale ,need renovation or modernisation.
    the banks are supposed to be bringing in new mortgages for
    people in negative equity .


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    #22
    nino1
    Registered Users Posts: 826 ✭✭✭nino1


    StillWaters wrote: »

    However, when negoiating with the bank for MARP they can and will take household income into account.

    Are you sure about that? There are many couples who are seperated but cannot afford to go through a divorce.
    How would the bank know if I contribute anything to my wife's household income?


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    #23
    StillWaters
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,799 ✭✭✭StillWaters


    Yes I'm sure. In the case of separation, a deed of separation is required.


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    #24
    fisher8181
    Registered Users Posts: 194 ✭✭fisher8181


    If i were you i would hand back the keys and do a deal with the bank on the unsecured loan thats left. like that nurse who was in €150,000 NE and had it cut to around €20,000.
    Deals like this are happening all the time just not reported as the banks are getting people to sign non-disclosure agreements.


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    #25
    cookie1977
    Registered Users Posts: 6,794 ✭✭✭cookie1977


    Under the bill at present the bank can reject the agreement (PI) so I cant see how they'd agree to it when they find out you have income and the total income can support the mortgage


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    #26
    mitosis
    Registered Users Posts: 2,000 ✭✭✭mitosis


    fisher8181 wrote: »
    If i were you i would hand back the keys and do a deal with the bank on the unsecured loan thats left. like that nurse who was in €150,000 NE and had it cut to around €20,000.
    Deals like this are happening all the time just not reported as the banks are getting people to sign non-disclosure agreements.

    So how do you know?


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    #27
    Ray Palmer
    Registered Users Posts: 8,394 ✭✭✭Ray Palmer


    fisher8181 wrote: »
    If i were you i would hand back the keys and do a deal with the bank on the unsecured loan thats left. like that nurse who was in €150,000 NE and had it cut to around €20,000.
    Deals like this are happening all the time just not reported as the banks are getting people to sign non-disclosure agreements.
    The nurse didn't really get a reduction. The amount taken off was due to the delay in the bank putting it in the market. Her case was based on the fact she gave back the property at one value and to the bank not selling it then the difference was taken off.
    They didn't really forgive any debt. She did pay less but not from the point she gave up the property.
    Op not a chance.


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    #28
    donalg1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,513 ✭✭✭donalg1


    nino1 wrote: »
    i say "WE have an apartment" but its actually my wives who brought it before I even met her.
    She is the only person on the mortgage and the bank doesn't even know she is married.
    If she were to take time off to mind the kids and hence goes into arrears I assume that she would be in a better position to negotiate a debt write down?

    Strategic defaulting is something the banks are very weary of, I know that isnt technically what you are suggesting but is along the same lines. Also your wife should look at amending her will as once you got married any previous one she made would have been revoked. The apartment itself and her other assets will now go to the kids and not you afaik, so she may want to look at that or just leave it as is either way I think a new will is required.


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    #29
    StillWaters
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,799 ✭✭✭StillWaters


    donalg1 wrote: »
    Also your wife should look at amending her will as once you got married any previous one she made would have been revoked. The apartment itself and her other assets will now go to the kids and not you afaik, so she may want to look at that or just leave it as is either way I think a new will is required.
    no, if you die intestate, the spouse gets two thirds, children one third between them.


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    #30
    Mickey Dazzler
    Closed Accounts Posts: 586 ✭✭✭Mickey Dazzler


    Go to the UK for year and declare bankruptcy. Start over.


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    #31
    FlexBrowne
    Registered Users Posts: 81 ✭✭FlexBrowne


    Tigger wrote: »
    Ye are married so you can't go bankrupt separately
    Rent out the apt and rent a bigger place to raise the family
    When the bottom comes you will have good credit and will be able to get a suitable home for peanuts

    Where would they possibly get credit to buy a new home with the old mortgage on the flat still there. Banks wouldn't give it. That's the nub of the problem. You have to sell the first prop b4 buying another and that's impossible...


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