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Handing back the keys
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FlexBrowne wrote: »Where would they possibly get credit to buy a new home with the old mortgage on the flat still there. Banks wouldn't give it. That's the nub of the problem. You have to sell the first prop b4 buying another and that's impossible...
So they should stay in the 1 bed apt and suffer the consequences of the original decision.
I don't see a problem here.0 -
FlexBrowne wrote: »Where would they possibly get credit to buy a new home with the old mortgage on the flat still there. Banks wouldn't give it. That's the nub of the problem. You have to sell the first prop b4 buying another and that's impossible...
So they should stay in the 1 bed apt and suffer the consequences of the original decision.
I don't see a problem here.
'Original decision' didn't foresee a 70% drop in value. Could you raise kids like that? Ignorant. People like you really do make this country a vile place....0 -
FlexBrowne wrote: »'Original decision' didn't foresee a 70% drop in value. Could you raise kids like that? Ignorant. People like you really do make this country a vile place....
I lost €30,000 in 6 months during the dot.com bubble and burst.
I did not forsee that loss.
The tax payer should bail me out and give me my €30,000 back.
If you do not agree with me, you are vile.
:rolleyes: FFS.
OP: Rent out your apartment and try to live within your means with your new family.
Alternatively, yes, your wife can walk away from her debts. You will not be impacted.
I am confused though - can you afford the repayments and just don't want to pay because the dwelling is worth less than you paid for it? If so, it is unlikely you qualify for any type of reprieve.0 -
FlexBrowne wrote: »'Original decision' didn't foresee a 70% drop in value. Could you raise kids like that? Ignorant. People like you really do make this country a vile place....
This is laughable, "Could you raise kids like that?", good Jesus man it was only a generation ago that Irish parents were having 7 or 8 kids and sometimes even more- a lad I went to school with came from a family of 13 other brothers and sisters and most Irish people over the age of thirty are aware of families of that size.
There is a massive difference between not being able to raise kids in a small space and not wanting to do it. The OP doesn't want to do it but that doesn't mean they can't. Unfortunately for them though (and I do have sympathy) the property crash may mean they have to, either that or get into more debt with a NE mortgage. Sometimes life isn't fair but you just got to suck it up, just like the Irish parents of the 1970's and 80's did.0 -
To be honest I'm well able to afford our mortgage and I will be well able to afford a NE mortgage on a bigger house but if Johnny next door who brought the same house as my wife and is in the same NE is getting a debt writedown after having made the exact same mistake I think we should be treated equally.0
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There,s extra tax credits on mortgage interest ,for people who bought between 2004 and 2008 ,
make sure you are getting it.
http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/it/reliefs/tax-relief-source-mortgage-rates.html quote;
Exemption: Notwithstanding the rates of tax relief mentioned above, for individuals who purchased their first principal private residence on or after 1 January 2004 and on or before 31 December 2008, the rate of tax relief on the interest paid on the loan to purchase that property will, for the tax years 2012 to 2017, be 30%
The bank gave a write down to a nurse, whose income decreased
after they sold the house.After she took them to court,
i don,t see the banks giving writedowns to married couples
who are still living in the apartment.
if you rent out, the revenue will tax you on the rental income.
And it may efffect your tax credits ,as above ,if you are claiming
30 per cent rate .0 -
That depends who johnny's mortgage is with, and what his income is. Your wife's contract is with her bank, not johnny's bank. They will act in their own best interests.To be honest I'm well able to afford our mortgage and I will be well able to afford a NE mortgage on a bigger house but if Johnny next door who brought the same house as my wife and is in the same NE is getting a debt writedown after having made the exact same mistake I think we should be treated equally.
Perhaps johnny's mortgage is underwater, perhaps he offered a lumpsum to the bank, perhaps johnny has a .25% tracker, perhaps his mortgage is with one of the banks who exited and wanted to write down their loan books.
In short, this is nothing to do with being treated equitably, or something that will be resolved at policy level.
When your wife and johnny bought the house, individual circumstances were taken into account, same as now.0 -
FlexBrowne wrote: »'Original decision' didn't foresee a 70% drop in value. Could you raise kids like that? Ignorant. People like you really do make this country a vile place....
I was there and decided not to buy so that I wouldn't have to raise my kids like that.
The main ignorance here is poorly researched financial decisions.
People like me are paying higher taxes to subsidise these poor decisions through tax breaks for people that bought during 2004 & 2008.0 -
I was there and decided not to buy so that I wouldn't have to raise my kids like that.
The main ignorance here is poorly researched financial decisions.
People like me are paying higher taxes to subsidise these poor decisions through tax breaks for people that bought during 2004 & 2008.
I love all these prophets who claim that they were so wise that they could see this whole crash coming a mile away and decided not to buy. Of course some did but the reality is that the vast majority of people who did not buy either had brought a house already before the boom or were not in a position to buy yet before the crash.
I did not buy myself as I was not in a position to settle down and of course I could claim that I saw it coming and what fools everybody else was but that was not the case.
I know a few of these pseudo-prophets who actually convince themselves that they saw it all coming but when i think back to conversations with them circa 2007 they were planning to buy but were lucky that the crash came before they managed to.0 -
I love all these prophets who claim that they were so wise that they could see this whole crash coming a mile away and decided not to buy. Of course some did but the reality is that the vast majority of people who did not buy either had brought a house already before the boom or were not in a position to buy yet before the crash.
I did not buy myself as I was not in a position to settle down and of course I could claim that I saw it coming and what fools everybody else was but that was not the case.
I know a few of these pseudo-prophets who actually convince themselves that they saw it all coming but when i think back to conversations with them circa 2007 they were planning to buy but were lucky that the crash came before they managed to.
I decided in 2001 not to buy as I felt that the bubble was about to burst then.
Only a blind man could not see that Ireland was in the midst of a bubble even then.
I'm sorry that anybody has to raise their kids in a one bed because of this foolishness but there are some of us who have to raise our kids in other countries because of it.
but here's what's hardest about all this mess, some of you are now praying for a 'recovery'.0 -
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OP - if I may, why did you decide to start a family knowing you had massive NE in an apartment that was too small? Now, you feel that "Could you raise kids like that?" - I'm baffled, are you strict Catholic and don't use birth control/believe in abortion?I'm sorry that anybody has to raise their kids in a one bed because of this foolishness but there are some of us who have to raise our kids in other countries because of it.
Because of the insane financial decisions made by (frankly) idiots, I'm now having to raise my teenage kid from another country!0 -
OP - if I may, why did you decide to start a family knowing you had massive NE in an apartment that was too small?
try to keep up with the conversation here MadsL. Judging by the intelligence level of your post I can see how you find that difficult.
I have already said that i can well afford the mortgage on the apartment and a bigger house.0 -
try to keep up with the conversation here MadsL. Judging by the intelligence level of your post I can see how you find that difficult.
I have already said that i can well afford the mortgage on the apartment and a bigger house.
Then where's the problem exactly? Pay both the mortgages and stop looking to weasel your way out of a legitimate debt.0 -
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Join Date:Posts: 30620
try to keep up with the conversation here MadsL. Judging by the intelligence level of your post I can see how you find that difficult.
I have already said that i can well afford the mortgage on the apartment and a bigger house.
If you disagree with what another poster posts- refute the post *without attacking the poster*. Its not difficult to remain civil towards one another........0 -
I love all these prophets who claim that they were so wise that they could see this whole crash coming a mile away and decided not to buy. Of course some did but the reality is that the vast majority of people who did not buy either had brought a house already before the boom or were not in a position to buy yet before the crash.
I did not buy myself as I was not in a position to settle down and of course I could claim that I saw it coming and what fools everybody else was but that was not the case.
I know a few of these pseudo-prophets who actually convince themselves that they saw it all coming but when i think back to conversations with them circa 2007 they were planning to buy but were lucky that the crash came before they managed to.
In all fairness that sounds like sour grapes from someone who is in negative equity and it isn't helpful to anyone- and especially not your own stress levels.
I don't claim to be an expert in property or even prophetic but I did have the opportunity to buy a 2 bed apartment in Drumcondra in 2006 for €475,000. I didn't because I have a simple philosophy of always getting value for money on any purchase I make and I didn't see how this 70m2 was worth nearly one million quid in mortgage repayments. Lucky for me I had spent a year in Australia and used to keep an eye on property prices there- I knew that AUD$1m would buy you a very decent house with a superb view of the Sydney Harbour Bridge so I couldn't equate how 70m2 of apartment space in Dublin would be equal, given the currency was about €1 to $2 at the time. It didn't add up so I walked away.
That's not being prophetic, that's using common sense. It's asking yourself 'is this worth the price I am paying?' rather than signing blindly into a 40 year mortgage like many people did. There are many of us who held off buying not because we didn't want to but because we didn't see any value in the market.
Buying a house is the single biggest financial transaction on most people's lives. It takes a great deal of consideration and research or else it can turn into a huge nightmare, as many are experiencing now.0 -
That's not being prophetic, that's using common sense. It's asking yourself 'is this worth the price I am paying?' rather than signing blindly into a 40 year mortgage like many people did. There are many of us who held off buying not because we didn't want to but because we didn't see any value in the market.
Buying a house is the single biggest financial transaction on most people's lives. It takes a great deal of consideration and research or else it can turn into a huge nightmare, as many are experiencing now.
The problem was down to the Irish mentality of having to own property at any cost. When property prices started to rise to insane levels people were willing to do whatever it took (100%+ mortgages etc) to buy rather than rent and wait for them to fall. Unfortunately for an awful lot of people its a tough lesson they are now learning the hard way.0 -
The problem was down to the Irish mentality of having to own property at any cost. When property prices started to rise to insane levels people were willing to do whatever it took (100%+ mortgages etc) to buy rather than rent and wait for them to fall. Unfortunately for an awful lot of people its a tough lesson they are now learning the hard way.
Tell me about it ! That apartment for €475k was a joint purchase with one of my sisters. I had a further two sisters pressuring me and her into it, they themselves were gone down the road of being amateur landlords so I heard all the usual babble, 'you have to get on the ladder', and the classic from my eldest sister 'the estate agent said now is a great time to buy'.
In the end I walked away and the sister who the joint purchase was with didn't speak to me for the following six months and even when she did I could see there was resentment still there. From her perspective I had thrown a spanner in the works of her owning her own place, as you say 'at any cost'.
That was all back in 2006. just last October she bought a large 4 bed house in Clontarf for (wait for it!) €475k. She will remain in it for the rest of her life and is now as happy as a pig in ****. I still told her to hold off buying as I have heard on the grapevine that a certain former Senator in the Clontarf area is in trouble with the banks on his portfolio of 6 houses in the area. Eventually those 6 properties (and other similar ones) will hit the market and drive prices down further. But she wanted to get her home made so I respected that. She could have held off and maybe got a similar property for €420k next year but she is happy out and ending up getting a bargain regardless.
But you're dead right- the pressure on people to buy 'at any cost' was huge. I've lived in several different countries and always rented while hear so for some reason I don't have the same disposition to owning property as a lot of others around me do. I will buy at some stage but the way things are going it will be for cash with no mortgage.0 -
In all fairness that sounds like sour grapes from someone who is in negative equity and it isn't helpful to anyone- and especially not your own stress levels.
I don't claim to be an expert in property or even prophetic but I did have the opportunity to buy a 2 bed apartment in Drumcondra in 2006 for €475,000. I didn't because I have a simple philosophy of always getting value for money on any purchase I make and I didn't see how this 70m2 was worth nearly one million quid in mortgage repayments. Lucky for me I had spent a year in Australia and used to keep an eye on property prices there- I knew that AUD$1m would buy you a very decent house with a superb view of the Sydney Harbour Bridge so I couldn't equate how 70m2 of apartment space in Dublin would be equal, given the currency was about €1 to $2 at the time. It didn't add up so I walked away.
That's not being prophetic, that's using common sense. It's asking yourself 'is this worth the price I am paying?' rather than signing blindly into a 40 year mortgage like many people did. There are many of us who held off buying not because we didn't want to but because we didn't see any value in the market.
Buying a house is the single biggest financial transaction on most people's lives. It takes a great deal of consideration and research or else it can turn into a huge nightmare, as many are experiencing now.
You say "in the end you walked away" so you were obviously seriously considering it. You were lucky then that this "opportunity" arose in 2006 when prices were at their absolute peak and sufficient to put you off. If you were being succumbed to the same pressure in 2004 the prices would have been more reasonable and you would be in negative equity now if you brought.
Its so easy in hindsight to say that you saw what was coming.
As I say I didn't buy either but I'm not about to claim that i saw the world economy collapse and irish property collapse that was about to come. I was just not in a position to buy like many others but I'm not jumping on the bandwagon.0 -
This is exactly why writedowns should never happen without surrendering the house.To be honest I'm well able to afford our mortgage and I will be well able to afford a NE mortgage on a bigger house but if Johnny next door who brought the same house as my wife and is in the same NE is getting a debt writedown after having made the exact same mistake I think we should be treated equally.0 -
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You say "in the end you walked away" so you were obviously seriously considering it. You were lucky then that this "opportunity" arose in 2006 when prices were at their absolute peak and sufficient to put you off. If you were being succumbed to the same pressure in 2004 the prices would have been more reasonable and you would be in negative equity now if you brought.
Its so easy in hindsight to say that you saw what was coming.
As I say I didn't buy either but I'm not about to claim that i saw the world economy collapse and irish property collapse that was about to come. I was just not in a position to buy like many others but I'm not jumping on the bandwagon.
That's a lot of ifs and buts that never happened. Besides, I was travelling the world in my 20's and never really settled back in Ireland after several years of living in different countries so for me it couldn't have happened the way you describe.
Regardless you are incorrect to say "Its so easy in hindsight to say that you saw what was coming", I am not claiming that I knew there was a property crash on the way. As I previously said I don't claim to be an expert on property. I walked away because in my mind €475k was not value for money, I never for one moment considered whether prices would keep going up or begin going down as the price didn't pass the acid test of value for money. I look at those same apartments now and owners are trying to sell them for €220k- I can afford to get into the market and buy now but, just like 2006, I still don't see value in the market. So I'll keep sitting on the fence and watch my investments appreciate. If this carries on for another 2/3 years like I think it will I will then be in a position to buy a 2 bed in most areas of Dublin for cash and will be forever mortgage free. I've had to go through over ten years of renting so far but would gladly do another ten to achieve that goal.
Finally I do have sympathy with your predicament, I genuinely do. You didn't buy a place because at the time you weren't in a position to. But your current partner did and now finds herself in negative equity- two of my own sisters are deep in it too, one to the tune of over €1m worth. But they just have to get on with it, its not nice but if you keep thinking and thinking about it you'll send yourself into a spiral of depression pretty quickly.0 -
You say "in the end you walked away" so you were obviously seriously considering it. You were lucky then that this "opportunity" arose in 2006 when prices were at their absolute peak and sufficient to put you off. If you were being succumbed to the same pressure in 2004 the prices would have been more reasonable and you would be in negative equity now if you brought.
Its so easy in hindsight to say that you saw what was coming.As I say I didn't buy either but I'm not about to claim that i saw the world economy collapse and irish property collapse that was about to come. I was just not in a position to buy like many others but I'm not jumping on the bandwagon.
Did he say that? looks like he said he could not see any value for money, even if the property bubble never burst I think he would still have been right not to spend nearly half a million on a two bed flat.
I was not predicting a burst of the bubble either but when I saw the kind of debt I would have to take on for a very poor quality residence I decided back in about 2005 that I would always be a renter, I'd sooner that than have a huge debt on my back for a crap house. I'm not alone in making that decision, loads of people did, the media just spin you a different story, you would swear everyone in the country bought a mortgage in 2006 the way they go on.0 -
I actually was predicting it loudly and often, but people would much rather listen to what the 'experts' in the media (who all worked for organisations that profited from increasing property prices) said, rather than spend an evening reading genuinely independent information that was freely available on the internet.
And then it was everyone's fault but theirs when they were sold a pup, and we are all expected to bail them out for some reason.0 -
Monty Burnz wrote: »I actually was predicting it loudly and often, but people would much rather listen to what the 'experts' in the media (who all worked for organisations that profited from increasing property prices) said, rather than spend an evening reading genuinely independent information that was freely available on the internet.
And then it was everyone's fault but theirs when they were sold a pup, and we are all expected to bail them out for some reason.
Exactly. I'm still telling everyone we're nowhere near the bottom of the crash and am personally saving + renting for a few more years, but i get shouted down most of the time by complete retards who know nothing other than what they learn from the Irish media. I'm not smug and couldn't care less what other people do but by fvck I'm not bailing them out.0 -
i say "WE have an apartment" but its actually my wives who brought it before I even met her.
She is the only person on the mortgage and the bank doesn't even know she is married.
If she were to take time off to mind the kids and hence goes into arrears I assume that she would be in a better position to negotiate a debt write down?
I can't see how this would work, unless you want your wife to present herself as seperated and on her own with the children?
If you don't want to do that then I think that your income will be taken into account as part of "her income". You may be able to push aside her debt, but I can't see the banks disregarding what you bring into the household.
If you were to go down this road, she would have to fill out the application and declare maintenance received. Remember also that this is the "family home", whether you contributed to it or not.
The bank may take an interest in her situation and ask her why she has not sought maintenance, payment from you in regard to the mortgage, social welfare help and so on.0 -
That didn't happen. The bank was ordered to take off the difference from when the house was given back and sold. The delay is selling meant the value decreased. They didn't write it off and she owed the same as she ever did. The court decided it was their fault they didn't recoup the top value.
The bank gave a write down to a nurse, whose income decreased
after they sold the house.After she took them to court,
.
Massive difference.0 -
Ray Palmer wrote: »That didn't happen. The bank was ordered to take off the difference from when the house was given back and sold. The delay is selling meant the value decreased. They didn't write it off and she owed the same as she ever did. The court decided it was their fault they didn't recoup the top value.
Massive difference.
The bank were not ordered to do any such thing, an agreement was reached between the bank and Laura White.
They wrote off the mortgage debt of 152k, Laura White must repay 18k, 250pm over 6 years.
She faces a judgement of 120k if she does not do this.
She bought the home in 2005 for 245k, she claimed she handed back the keys in 2008, the bank say it was 2010 - either way, she was on the hook for the money until the agreement was reached.
The difference between what she "could" have sold it for in 2008 and 2010 would still not have covered the debt.0 -
FlexBrowne wrote: »'Original decision' didn't foresee a 70% drop in value. Could you raise kids like that? Ignorant. People like you really do make this country a vile place....
This is laughable, "Could you raise kids like that?", good Jesus man it was only a generation ago that Irish parents were having 7 or 8 kids and sometimes even more- a lad I went to school with came from a family of 13 other brothers and sisters and most Irish people over the age of thirty are aware of families of that size.
There is a massive difference between not being able to raise kids in a small space and not wanting to do it. The OP doesn't want to do it but that doesn't mean they can't. Unfortunately for them though (and I do have sympathy) the property crash may mean they have to, either that or get into more debt with a NE mortgage. Sometimes life isn't fair but you just got to suck it up, just like the Irish parents of the 1970's and 80's did.
Nonsense. So we're advocating a return to 'back in the day' are we? "We used to go to school hungry in the past so what harm again" argument? Race to the bottom? It's a welfare issue. We do not benchmark today's standards to the past. Also it's absurd to compare the downturn of the 80's with today. Simply not the same. If you think it's ok to raise two or more kids of diff sexes in shoeboxes with no baths, no storage, no wardrobe space, one windowless loo, no garden, no table to eat on etc then I'm glad you're not in charge of child welfare! That couple should tell the council where to stick it. As I said before, you simply cannot look at these situations with a calculator especially if you're not in that situation. It's amoral to be dismissive of people's situations.0 -
So you want who to pay for nice houses for these people? And what about the people who would like to move into those same nice houses but will now be out-competed for them by either the state or people who had their chance to buy but blew it? Where do you suggest they go?FlexBrowne wrote: »Nonsense. So we're advocating a return to 'back in the day' are we? "We used to go to school hungry in the past so what harm again" argument? Race to the bottom? It's a welfare issue. We do not benchmark today's standards to the past. Also it's absurd to compare the downturn of the 80's with today. Simply not the same. If you think it's ok to raise two or more kids of diff sexes in shoeboxes with no baths, no storage, no wardrobe space, one windowless loo, no garden, no table to eat on etc then I'm glad you're not in charge of child welfare! That couple should tell the council where to stick it. As I said before, you simply cannot look at these situations with a calculator especially if you're not in that situation. It's amoral to be dismissive of people's situations.0 -
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FlexBrowne wrote: »Nonsense. So we're advocating a return to 'back in the day' are we? "We used to go to school hungry in the past so what harm again" argument? Race to the bottom? It's a welfare issue. We do not benchmark today's standards to the past. Also it's absurd to compare the downturn of the 80's with today. Simply not the same. If you think it's ok to raise two or more kids of diff sexes in shoeboxes with no baths, no storage, no wardrobe space, one windowless loo, no garden, no table to eat on etc then I'm glad you're not in charge of child welfare! That couple should tell the council where to stick it. As I said before, you simply cannot look at these situations with a calculator especially if you're not in that situation. It's amoral to be dismissive of people's situations.
I think you should have the financial resources and contingency financial plans in place to take on the enormous responsibility of reproducing human children.
He consciously selected a mate with a large financial burden and should live by the conequences of that action.
They can pay the debt.0
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