scrapping the housing benefits for under 25's

Monty Burnz

shopaholic01 wrote: »

Op has no problem with people who did work and pay taxes claiming social welfare and housing benefit.

Which is the same thing as choosing to stop paying your mortgage and quitting work?

filmbuffboy

nessie911 wrote: »

And wha do you do for young people leavin state care, or young people who become homeless.

Young people under 25 are all ready getin less money. I have just finished college and actively seekin work. So I have signed on, because I am under 25 and living at home my fathers accounts had to be taken into account. So will prob come out wit 40 euro a week. But if I was over 25 I am entitled to so much more. Why am I bein punished for makin the decision to move back home.

i dont think you are being 'punished' for moving back home.

its simple really, the state sees you as needing less income than someone living out of home as you will generally have less outgoings.

if you are unhappy with the amount you recieve whilst living at home, then the logical course of action would be to move out again??

nadey

jesus_thats_gre wrote: »

Goodness me. I hate to dismiss you based on your age but at 21, you don't have the slightest clue. It's harsh but you haven't experienced life yet.

not that its any of your business but do not judge me just because of my age i may only be 21 but i've been to hell and back in my 21years

i raised my little brothers because of my mam was too ill to do it while my dad worked his ass off to provide for our family

i went to school and never missed a day despite how bad stuff was at home

i worked part time to give my dad a helping hand so he wouldn't have to work 7 days a week and that he could be their for us

i watched my baby brother die right in front of my eyes from meningitis

from 17 i moved out got my own place and depended on no still working and working my ass off in college

i've worked very hard to where i am today

i have my own home and my own car that i bought out of my hard earned money

i have my dream job that i love and wouldn't change for the world

a great partner and 2 babies ( my dogs )

i haven't experienced life because of my age please pull the other one it has bells on it

shopaholic01

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Which is the same thing as choosing to stop paying your mortgage and quitting work?

I said lose and unavailable to find another, not quit. I also would not be able to pay my motgage, arrears would get to a point where I could never repay them.

Monty Burnz

Biggins wrote: »

Let see, if every one agreed with the OP - O' well thats ok - but if we majority disagree?
Thats mob mentality!
Right... got it now!

I think the issue was with the manner of disagreement. Duiske correctly pointed out that the figures must come from the UK and the savings suggested by the OP were wildly optimistic. That's rather different to the type of reply that I quoted above.

Perhaps I'm expecting politics forum standards of discussion on AH, which I suppose is pretty dumb on my part.

Nodin

Monty Burnz wrote: »

They key difference being that this appears to be a proposal under serious consideration in the UK - from which we borrow a lot of our social policy. If rolled out there, we could see it happen here too.

Borrowing policy from the UK is partly to blame for the state the countrys in at the moment.

Monty Burnz

shopaholic01 wrote: »

I said lose and unavailable to find another, not quit. I also would not be able to pay my motgage, arrears would get to a point where I could never repay them.

Ok, but would you not try to get work ever again?

girl in the striped socks

nadey wrote: »

jesus_thats_gre wrote: »

Goodness me. I hate to dismiss you based on your age but at 21, you don't have the slightest clue. It's harsh but you haven't experienced life yet.

not that its any of your business but do not judge me just because of my age i may only be 21 but i've been to hell and back in my 21years

i raised my little brothers because of my mam was too ill to do it while my dad worked his ass off to provide for our family

i went to school and never missed a day despite how bad stuff was at home

i worked part time to give my dad a helping hand so he wouldn't have to work 7 days a week and that he could be their for us

i watched my baby brother die right in front of my eyes from meningitis

from 17 i moved out got my own place and depended on no still working and working my ass off in college

i've worked very hard to where i am today

i have my own home and my own car that i bought out of my hard earned money

i have my dream job that i love and wouldn't change for the world

a great partner and 2 babies ( my dogs )

i haven't experienced life because of my age please pull the other one it has bells on it

Well done.
Not everyone could manage all of that & still succeed.

Monty Burnz

Nodin wrote: »

Borrowing policy from the UK is partly to blame for the state the countrys in at the moment.

Almost certainly, but we'll probably disagree on what those policies are.

nadey

WhiteRoses wrote: »

No not rude at all I had a late miscarriage, so its a null point anyway, but I would have continued living at home. My OH sold his car for money and we had about €5,000 saved by the time I found out I'd lost the baby.

so sorry for your loss

that woman was a bitch

she should burn in hell for saying such a thing

shopaholic01

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Ok, but would you not try to get work ever again?

Of course, but if I was unable to find alternative employment. Plenty of people have been trying for years and are unsuccessful. A lot of positions are now advertised through jobsbridge too, so there is very little opportunity for re-employment.

Monty Burnz

shopaholic01 wrote: »

Of course, but if I was unable to find alternative employment. Plenty of people have been trying for years and are unsuccessful. A lot of positions are now advertised through jobsbridge too, so there is very little opportunity for re-employment.

That's quite different to trying to avoid work for the rest of your life though. As I said before, I don't think anyone has a problem with helping out people who can't find work but want to do it.

Sir Oxman

nessie911 wrote: »

And wha do you do for young people leavin state care, or young people who become homeless.

Young people under 25 are all ready getin less money. I have just finished college and actively seekin work. So I have signed on, because I am under 25 and living at home my fathers accounts had to be taken into account. So will prob come out wit 40 euro a week. But if I was over 25 I am entitled to so much more. Why am I bein punished for makin the decision to move back home.

I don't think you would be entitled to so much more if you were over 25.
The max amount applicable is higher but would be means tested if you hadn't the stamps paid to qualify for benefit.

Biggins

Monty Burnz wrote: »

I think the issue was with the manner of disagreement. Duiske correctly pointed out that the figures must come from the UK and the savings suggested by the OP were wildly optimistic. That's rather different to the type of reply that I quoted above.

Perhaps I'm expecting politics forum standards of discussion on AH, which I suppose is pretty dumb on my part.

After Hours CAN discuss matter in great detail at times - we have done it many a time.
We have done so when we are given a well though out position/argument - but the (too short and and frankly far too ill-thought out) following does not dwell well for good discussion. A post like...

should we scrap housing benefits for under 25's saving 2 billion euro a year
IMO i think its a great idea and i feel it would stop young girls getting pregnant at such a young age

...can only bring forth at times, the same shortness of which its starts out from!

Now had the OP stated:

Should we scrap housing benefits for SOME under 25's - saving a few million a year?

IMO i think its a great idea and i feel it would stop SOME young girls getting pregnant OR EVEN THINKING ABOUT IT, at such a young age!

I suspect such a post as above would have received a better reception - even by the like of After Hours - and rightly so.

...But the OP didn't - so what can one expect!

Monty Burnz

Biggins wrote: »

I suspect such a post as above would have received a better reception - even by the like of After Hours - and rightly so.

Fair point.

shopaholic01

Monty Burnz wrote: »

That's quite different to trying to avoid work for the rest of your life though. As I said before, I don't think anyone has a problem with helping out people who can't find work but want to do it.

You are talking about a small minority, it's not every single parent/unemployed person.

You can't however condone that they are left without any financial assistance. The time to tackle this was during the 'boom years' when education etc could have been financed.

nadey

girl in the striped socks wrote: »

Well done.
Not everyone could manage all of that & still succeed.

its what hard work gets you

i wasn't going to sit back and feel sorry for myself

girl in the striped socks

nadey wrote: »

girl in the striped socks wrote: »

Well done.
Not everyone could manage all of that & still succeed.

its what hard work gets you

i wasn't going to sit back and feel sorry for myself

Now if you could figure out a way to bottle that & sell it not only would you be a billionaire but the welfare discussion would be over too

Monty Burnz

shopaholic01 wrote: »

You are talking about a small minority, it's not every single parent/unemployed person.

It's a large minority, and I'd suggest that during the boom it was possibly the majority of the unemployed. We were importing tens of thousands of people every year because employers just couldn't get enough people.

shopaholic01 wrote: »

You can't however condone that they are left without any financial assistance. The time to tackle this was during the 'boom years' when education etc could have been financed.

100% correct, it certainly should have been tackled during the boom, but that wouldn't fit with FFailure's principle of buying off everybody.

tayto lover

Biggins wrote: »

After Hours CAN discuss matter in great detail at times - we have done it many a time.
We have done so when we are given a well though out position/argument - but the (too short and and frankly far too ill-thought out) following does not dwell well for good discussion. A post like...


...can only bring forth at times, the same shortness of which its starts out from!

Now had the OP stated:



I suspect such a post as above would have received a better reception - even by the like of After Hours - and rightly so.

...But the OP didn't - so what can one expect!

Exactly. I was waiting for someone to suggest a cull of old people too.

190E2.516

christmas2012 wrote: »

where is the job creation in ireland there are 400,000 + people on the dole and rising ,due to recent layoffs and businesses going bust in the recession as rents are too high,and people simply dont have the money to buy..its a vicous cycle,and schemes like fas and jobbridge only excasberate the situation by creating further unemployment,by hogging up what could be paid jobs advertised publicly..

listen here as far as im concerned theres plenty of work out there if people make a small effort to find it . ive never been out of employment in my life since i was 15. where is all the innovation? if u cant find a job, u create a job. where is the innovation in people anymore

filmbuffboy

190E2.516 wrote: »

listen here as far as im concerned theres plenty of work out there if people make a small effort to find it . ive never been out of employment in my life since i was 15. where is all the innovation? if u cant find a job, u create a job. where is the innovation in people anymore

not everyone is built the same im afraid. some are born innovators/leaders. some are sheep and prefer to follow/ be led.

not everyone is built or has the knowledge/intelligence to start up their own buisness.

and there are plenty of jobs around.

but no where near 400 thousand....

nadey

guys dont get me wrong i know that people with intellectual disability and for those who have no family in care of the state its different for them

its the people who CAN WORK BUT WONT sorry but maybe i should have explained myself more and in more detail

anyone remember that report a few weeks ago that i think it 3 out of 5 family are better off on the dole that is just shocking

it shows that they get way too much for doing very little

Muir

190E2.516 wrote: »

listen here as far as im concerned theres plenty of work out there if people make a small effort to find it . ive never been out of employment in my life since i was 15. where is all the innovation? if u cant find a job, u create a job. where is the innovation in people anymore

There are jobs, if you're qualified. You need 2 years experience to be a waitress pretty much everywhere, experience to work in a deli, need to be a trained barista to work in a coffee shop. Things that used to be entry level jobs you now need a lot of experience to do, so particularly for young people it's very hard.

mattjack

nadey wrote: »

guys dont get me wrong i know that people with intellectual disability and for those who have no family in care of the state its different for them

its the people who CAN WORK BUT WONT sorry but maybe i should have explained myself more and in more detail

anyone remember that report a few weeks ago that i think it 3 out of 5 family are better off on the dole that is just shocking

it shows that they get way too much for doing very little

Do you own your own house ?

filmbuffboy

nadey wrote: »

guys dont get me wrong i know that people with intellectual disability and for those who have no family in care of the state its different for them

its the people who CAN WORK BUT WONT sorry but maybe i should have explained myself more and in more detail

anyone remember that report a few weeks ago that i think it 3 out of 5 family are better off on the dole that is just shocking

it shows that they get way too much for doing very little

dont blame the family for choosing to stay on welfare because theyre financially better off.

blame the government, who have the system set up in such a way that work is punished, rather than praised!!!

people need to stop going after the little man, and start looking at the bigger picture which causes all of it!

christmas2012

190E2.516 wrote: »

listen here as far as im concerned theres plenty of work out there if people make a small effort to find it . ive never been out of employment in my life since i was 15. where is all the innovation? if u cant find a job, u create a job. where is the innovation in people anymore

you need money for 'innovation',whether its starting up a new business,or franchise,you need a good lot of capital,something a lot of people in ireland are short of at the moment..

jesus_thats_gre

nadey wrote: »

not that its any of your business but do not judge me just because of my age i may only be 21 but i've been to hell and back in my 21years

i raised my little brothers because of my mam was too ill to do it while my dad worked his ass off to provide for our family

i went to school and never missed a day despite how bad stuff was at home

i worked part time to give my dad a helping hand so he wouldn't have to work 7 days a week and that he could be their for us

i watched my baby brother die right in front of my eyes from meningitis

from 17 i moved out got my own place and depended on no still working and working my ass off in college

i've worked very hard to where i am today

i have my own home and my own car that i bought out of my hard earned money

i have my dream job that i love and wouldn't change for the world

a great partner and 2 babies ( my dogs )

i haven't experienced life because of my age please pull the other one it has bells on it

I got it wrong so. I assumed that your age meant that you wouldn't have sufficient life experience to be able to really know what you were talking about.

The reality is that you seem to have experienced more than anyone your age should have and, somehow, managed to come out the other side. You are a rare case and you being ok doesn't automatically mean that everyone else should be ok too.

Biggins

tayto lover wrote: »

Exactly. I was waiting for someone to suggest a cull of old people too.

Thats part of the next budget!

(Not really - but its expected by some that the elderly will be hit in a number of ways)

kowloon

christmas2012 wrote: »

where is the job creation in ireland there are 400,000 + people on the dole and rising ,due to recent layoffs and businesses going bust in the recession as rents are too high,and people simply dont have the money to buy..its a vicous cycle,and schemes like fas and jobbridge only excasberate the situation by creating further unemployment,by hogging up what could be paid jobs advertised publicly..

Now there's something that really annoys me.

nadey

girl in the striped socks wrote: »

Now if you could figure out a way to bottle that & sell it not only would you be a billionaire but the welfare discussion would be over too

if i can do it with what i went through i dont see how others cant

people saying there are no jobs look up all of the job advert websites there are plenty of jobs

not enough to fill the 400,000 i know but there are jobs out there

Biggins

kowloon wrote: »

Now there's something that really annoys me.

That topic is here: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=79021152

Feel free to post your thoughts. Many have.

Muir

nadey wrote: »

if i can do it with what i went through i dont see how others cant

people saying there are no jobs look up all of the job advert websites there are plenty of jobs

not enough to fill the 400,000 i know but there are jobs out there

Read my post above. I'm a student and I expect I'll get a decent job when I graduate, but I have sent out hundreds of CVs looking for internships, summer work, work while at college etc and I can get nothing.

Madam_X

nadey wrote: »

if i can do it with what i went through i dont see how others cant

people saying there are no jobs look up all of the job advert websites there are plenty of jobs

not enough to fill the 400,000 i know but there are jobs out there

Obviously those who are unemployed and say there aren't enough jobs are checking those sites constantly. Not all the jobs exist, many are duplicates.
I lost my job over three years ago - in the build-up to being let go (about two months) I was constantly applying. Got one interview. Then out of the blue a company started hiring so I got in there, but it was pure luck. Things have gotten much worse since then.
There may be jobs out there but not enough to meet the demand.

nadey

jesus_thats_gre wrote: »

I got it wrong so. I assumed that your age meant that you wouldn't have sufficient life experience to be able to really know what you were talking about.

The reality is that you seem to have experienced more than anyone your age should have and, somehow, managed to come out the other side. You are a rare case and you being ok doesn't automatically mean that everyone else should be ok too.

I'll admit it wasn't easy i managed without benefits

i worked hard really hard but i knew if i gave up then i wouldn't get what i wanted in life

its prob just because i did it and i feel if i can do it then so can others

for people with no family and in the care of the state or for people with intellectual disability its very different

shopaholic01

Monty Burnz wrote: »

It's a large minority, and I'd suggest that during the boom it was possibly the majority of the unemployed. We were importing tens of thousands of people every year because employers just couldn't get enough people.

Because of a lack of skills amongst Irish workers - languages, particularly in the IT sector, science etc.

nadey

mattjack wrote: »

Do you own your own house ?

yes

Monty Burnz

shopaholic01 wrote: »

Because of a lack of skills amongst Irish workers - languages, particularly in the IT sector, science etc.

Why were the shops and restaurants full of Eastern Europeans and Mongolians and Chinese then? I probably went 3 years in Dublin without being served in a shop by an Irish person. There were hundreds of thousands of unskilled jobs paying €10 an hour. The cohort who were happy to live on the dole in those days (and continue to do so) are the people who need to be sorted out.

0066ad

nadey wrote: »

yes

How the hell did u manage that? going to college working part time and you are only 21 :eek:

mikemac1

shopaholic01 wrote: »

The time to tackle this was during the 'boom years' when education etc could have been financed.

It was tackled, sort of

Long term unemployed get shifted onto courses.

I did a tourism course in Limerick with CERT and there were lots of LTU on it.
They were told to find a course, any course and CERT were far better then FÁS

Not sure if any of them got a job out of it but the training was superb

And it's what governments do best, shift people onto schemes and congratulate themselves on the stats :cool:


Nowadays a lot of them got shifted onto disability
Abuse yourself with drugs and you are not unemployed, you are on disability
Doesn't show up for unemployment

shopaholic01

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Why were the shops and restaurants full of Eastern Europeans and Mongolians and Chinese then? I probably went 3 years in Dublin without being served in a shop by an Irish person. There were hundreds of thousands of unskilled jobs paying €10 an hour. The cohort who were happy to live on the dole in those days (and continue to do so) are the people who need to be sorted out.

Partly a product of free travel within the EU. A lot employers favoured these workers because Irish people were more likey to move on when a better position was offered. A lot of non-Irish nationals were also employed in a cash-in-hand basis and were paid below average wage.

jesus_thats_gre

shopaholic01 wrote: »

Partly a product of free travel within the EU. A lot employers favoured these workers because Irish people were more likey to move on when a better position was offered. A lot of non-Irish nationals were also employed in a cash-in-hand basis and were paid below average wage.

Don't buy this myself.

The fact that so many more of these jobs are actually filled with Irish people again is proof of that.

Nothingbetter2d

scrapping housing benefit would create more problems. mass homelessness for one. scrapping jobsbridge schemes would be a better option.

how much money would the government save by doing that.

I worked as a self employed architectural technician during the boom years. then the bubble burst and I was out of work.. I went back to college at my own expense while only being entitled to €120 a week on jsa.

I still had debts to repay. a flat to pay rent on and the bills etc. it was hard. then I finished my two years of college training in I.t. only to find nothing on offer but jobsbridge schemes.

I took one but I know the company I am working with dont keep interns on after the 9 months. most companies are exploiting the scheme. some have even laid off paid employees and replaced them with interns at tax payers expense.

I would love to go back to college to upgrade my higher cert to a higher degree but I simply cannot afford to.

mattjack

0066ad wrote: »

How the hell did u manage that? going to college working part time and you are only 21 :eek:

That was my next question.

Monty Burnz

shopaholic01 wrote: »

Partly a product of free travel within the EU. A lot employers favoured these workers because Irish people were more likey to move on when a better position was offered. A lot of non-Irish nationals were also employed in a cash-in-hand basis and were paid below average wage.

The point is that there were hundreds of thousands of jobs like this going at the same time as 5% of our working population was on the dole. Most of that 5% weren't interested in working.

shopaholic01

jesus_thats_gre wrote: »

Don't buy this myself.

The fact that so many more of these jobs are actually filled with Irish people again is proof of that.

Because it is less likey that a better offer will come along.

Muir

Nothingbetter2d wrote: »

scrapping housing benefit would create more problems. mass homelessness for one. scrapping jobsbridge schemes would be a better option.

how much money would the government save by doing that.

I worked as a self employed architectural technician during the boom years. then the bubble burst and I was out of work.. I went back to college at my own expense while only being entitled to €120 a week on jsa.

I still had debts to repay. a flat to pay rent on and the bills etc. it was hard. then I finished my two years of college training in I.t. only to find nothing on offer but jobsbridge schemes.

I took one but I know the company I am working with dont keep interns on after the 9 months. most companies are exploiting the scheme. some have even laid off paid employees and replaced them with interns at tax payers expense.

I would love to go back to college to upgrade my higher cert to a higher degree but I simply cannot afford to.

Have you looked on bluebrick, there are a lot of funded courses that are IT related. HDips etc. Even if you're supposed to have a degree, it's worth applying, I know someone who managed to get onto one without any degree by having a good CV and cover letter, so give it a try.

Monty Burnz

shopaholic01 wrote: »

Because it is less likey that a better offer will come along.

This makes no sense - Irish people couldn't get entry level jobs and were losing them to people who could barely speak English because there were lots of jobs available?

Varied

No way, you can't just scrap housing benefit because of age.

There are more important measures that should be put in place, like work programmes, education and incentive to get these people into paid jobs.

Not some ridiculous taxpayer funded scheme that gives corporates free labour.

christmas2012

Nothingbetter2d,if you cannot afford the course,how about a credit union loan there always handy and the interest on them is not too bad..