Labour want to tax workers to pay for social welfare

djpbarry

Does anyone really think that public sector pay and/or staff numbers can really be tackled in any kind of meaningful way without the country being brought to a grinding halt by strike action?

golden lane

djpbarry wrote: »

Does anyone really think that public sector pay and/or staff numbers can really be tackled in any kind of meaningful way without the country being brought to a grinding halt by strike action?

so the country is run on threats.......get real.....no organisation is bigger than the population at large......

just takes a politician with guts.....

john47

golden lane wrote: »

so the country is run on threats.......get real.....no organisation is bigger than the population at large......

just takes a politician with guts.....

Pubilc Sector reform is primarily governed by the Croke Park Agreement which is a mechanism for real change, that if done properly and with consultation will result in NO strikes.

You saw when Leo Vradakar last week tried to say increments should be stopped and compulsory redundancies should be brought in and both Michael Noonan and Brendan Howlin told him no. The Croke Park Agreement, like it or not, is what is there and major savings and reform have already been made and the Minister for Reform has no intention of reneging on the agreement. He is happy with the changes that have happened and is looking at further reforms. Check out - http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/health/2012/0703/1224319257673.html?via=rel

JR

gerryo777

golden lane wrote: »

so the country is run on threats.......get real.....no organisation is bigger than the population at large......

just takes a politician with guts.....

You'll be looking long and hard to find one of those.

As long as Labour and their unions are in government there'll be no real change in the PS.

Sure they think we should be eternally grateful because their just starting to bring in some minor efficiencies.

Still getting pay rises though.

golden lane

john47 wrote: »

Pubilc Sector reform is primarily governed by the Croke Park Agreement which is a mechanism for real change, that if done properly and with consultation will result in NO strikes.

You saw when Leo Vradakar last week tried to say increments should be stopped and compulsory redundancies should be brought in and both Michael Noonan and Brendan Howlin told him no. The Croke Park Agreement, like it or not, is what is there and major savings and reform have already been made and the Minister for Reform has no intention of reneging on the agreement. He is happy with the changes that have happened and is looking at further reforms. Check out - http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/health/2012/0703/1224319257673.html?via=rel

JR

i agree with your points. under normal circumstances, that is not the case now........

when a profit making company makes an agreement. that agreement can be changed when it becomes a non profit making company.....

or else the company goes to the wall..

that also applies to countries...

voters, with their elected representitives should run the country. not strong unions with their threats of disruption. that is gangsterism.

djpbarry

golden lane wrote: »

so the country is run on threats.......get real.....no organisation is bigger than the population at large......

just takes a politician with guts.....

Cast your eye over to London. Transport workers are striking tomorrow because they’ve decided they’re entitled to a bonus for working during the Olympics. These guys are massively outnumbered by the general population, but the general population still needs people to drive and maintain their buses.

Blowfish

john47 wrote: »

Pubilc Sector reform is primarily governed by the Croke Park Agreement which is a mechanism for real change, that if done properly and with consultation will result in NO strikes.

You saw when Leo Vradakar last week tried to say increments should be stopped and compulsory redundancies should be brought in and both Michael Noonan and Brendan Howlin told him no.

The problem with the CPA is that preventing redundancies hinders the 'real change' that you talk about. The head of HSE admitted this a while back, that they were essentially overstaffed and natural wastage isn't cutting enough or in the right areas.

Count Dooku

john47 wrote: »

Count Dooku wrote: »

In 2011 income tax take + USC + VAT was less than 2010 income tax take + health levy + VAT mostly due reduced spending

Dont forget to factor in the huge drop in employment which results in both a drop in income tax and then people having less disposable income to buy things therefore reducing VAT intake.

A) unemployment in 2011 was less than in 2010 ( 437,100 December 2010 vs 434,800 December 2011)
reduced spending due tax increases created more unemployment now (last figures were 452,000)
Tax increases are not working, because welfare bill is rising as taxes rising (welfare bill is already 1 Bn higher than it was in June 2011)
The only choice left to cut state spending before it is not too late

jonniebgood1

john47 wrote: »

The government cant put money into the economy we dont have.

JR

They seem to have no problem putting money we don't have down the drain by blankly refusing to deal with issues. There are many examples of this. Take Howlin as long ago as today in the Dail stating that he wouldnt adjust anything to do with the Croke park agreement. This despite worsening conditions since it was made. Not to mention paying unsecured bondholders...

gerryo777

jonniebgood1 wrote: »

They seem to have no problem putting money we don't have down the drain by blankly refusing to deal with issues. There are many examples of this. Take Howlin as long ago as today in the Dail stating that he wouldnt adjust anything to do with the Croke park agreement. This despite worsening conditions since it was made. Not to mention paying unsecured bondholders...

Labour won't allow the CPA be touched and they won't allow welfare to be cut.

FG won't touch the well off, so it will be the working/middle classes who will pay the most to balance the books.

Welcome to Ireland, a so called republic, 2012.

Count Dooku

djpbarry wrote: »

golden lane wrote: »

so the country is run on threats.......get real.....no organisation is bigger than the population at large......

just takes a politician with guts.....

Cast your eye over to London. Transport workers are striking tomorrow because they’ve decided they’re entitled to a bonus for working during the Olympics. These guys are massively outnumbered by the general population, but the general population still needs people to drive and maintain their buses.

Only because country doesn't have a strong leader like Reagan
Imagine what would happen if iron lady would be in power
?

tayto lover

john47 wrote: »

But do you want the government to start employing people, then someone else will have the arguement - there are too many people working in the public sector, we must reduce the numbers in the public sector now - oh, hang on doesn't Leo Vradkar want compulsory redundancies in the public sector - well there you go.

The government cant put money into the economy we dont have.
The government cant employ more people.

JR

Where did I say that they needed to increase the PS ?
They need to help small businesses and start-up businesses.
You don't have to dish out the party line all the time.

Sleepy

Because we need to increase the poverty trap that makes it more lucrative for many to remain on the dole?

The woman is a moron, why we even print her outbursts in the media astounds me, never mind the mentality of those who elected her.

golden lane

Count Dooku wrote: »

Only because country doesn't have a strong leader like Reagan
Imagine what would happen if iron lady would be in power
?

i don't class a few strikes by london transport...a serious problem......


they have had many in the past......

creedp

jonniebgood1 wrote: »

They seem to have no problem putting money we don't have down the drain by blankly refusing to deal with issues. There are many examples of this. Take Howlin as long ago as today in the Dail stating that he wouldnt adjust anything to do with the Croke park agreement. This despite worsening conditions since it was made. Not to mention paying unsecured bondholders...

It must be hard for a politician to call for further pay cuts for the rank and file while at the same time awarding their friends, sorry trusted expert advisors, €35k pay increases.

djpbarry

golden lane wrote: »

i don't class a few strikes by london transport...a serious problem...

You might if you lived here. A strike a few days before the Olympics starts would be a pretty big deal.

woodoo

creedp wrote: »

It must be hard for a politician to call for further pay cuts for the rank and file while at the same time awarding their friends, sorry trusted expert advisors, €35k pay increases.

They would have no credibility to implement cuts after that.

golden lane

djpbarry wrote: »

You might if you lived here. A strike a few days before the Olympics starts would be a pretty big deal.

spent half of my working life in london.....retired now....

yes it would be sad....but i will leave it up to the proper people to decide.........if it happens, long term they will regret it....

creedp

woodoo wrote: »

They would have no credibility to implement cuts after that.

Unfortunately they have done that by awarding advisors €35k more than the approved salary for the post. It makes you wonder who sets the salaries for these posts and to what extent salaries in these these kind of political posts or senior posts in public agencies are manipulated by the powers that be.

goat2

my personal view,
advisors should be made up of men and women who have already run a successful business in the private sector, these are the only people who know how hard it is to keep things going,
after all running the country is the same as running a business , only on a bigger scale.

creedp

goat2 wrote: »

my personal view,
advisors should be made up of men and women who have already run a successful business in the private sector, these are the only people who know how hard it is to keep things going,
after all running the country is the same as running a business , only on a bigger scale.

Whether they have run a business or not is one issue but I would have thought a prerequisite for an advisor is that they have actual expertise/experience in the area that they are supposed to be 'advising' on. Of course being Ireland this doesn't apply either.