Ireland and South Africa Rivalry

Neil3030

OP, what beer was on offer? Might explain everything, tbh.

Chucky the tree

Fishooks12 wrote: »

I think the fact that one of the SA players tried to claw Luke Fitzgerald's eyes out might have something to do with it, not to mention the reaction of the coach to the disgusting incident

Does that mean all NZ players hate Irish ones because Heaslip tried to cave McCaws head in?

boksmashoffice

thebaz wrote: »

in fairness , I would have thought New Zealand would be SA biggest rivalry - there were always rumours that South africa , didn't do the beer thing when they lost[/QUOTE

Our biggest rivals are The All Blacks and like wise for the AB's. Before 1998 ( i think) no AB's teams had won a series in South Africa and it was a big deal when they won. You had the old guard (Fitzpatrick, Bunce, Little) all in tears at the final whistle.

All the legends of NZ sleep easy now because of the 1999 team.

In regards to the beer question I don't think they decline the chance of a drink with the opposition.

There is mutual respect between the opponents after the game.

'An example if you like is'
After Smit had been dump tackled by Thorn, they had a chat and a drink after the match. All issues were left on the field.

The Tri Nations and i am sure the Pumas will have drinks after matches because what happens on the pitch stays on the pitch ethos of rugby is embraced (i hope long may this continue)

buck65

boksmashoffice wrote: »

That's what we are known for. We are a rainbow nation, where even the pakistani's and Indians get on great (that is a rare thing)

A bit of history rewritten in one sentence?

Fishooks12

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Does that mean all NZ players hate Irish ones because Heaslip tried to cave McCaws head in?

what Heaslip did was really stupid, but in comparison to what Burger did it was nothing

boksmashoffice

Fishooks12 wrote: »

what Heaslip did was really stupid, but in comparison to what Burger did it was nothing

What Burger did was stupid too. Heaslip was frustrated and lost it for a second.

boksmashoffice

buck65 wrote: »

A bit of history rewritten in one sentence?

We are writing History everyday. its a great country. so is Ireland.

Fishooks12

boksmashoffice wrote: »

What Burger did was stupid too. Heaslip was frustrated and lost it for a second.

Putting it all under the guise of frustration doesn't excuse the marked distinction between to two incidents

boksmashoffice

Fishooks12 wrote: »

Putting it all under the guise of frustration doesn't excuse the marked distinction between to two incidents

Burger was playing his 50th test match. He was pumped up and wanted to physically impose himself on Luke. Again I will put it down as a regrettable incident. I don't think Schalk is a dirty player, he plays on the edge to get the best out of himself. You probably see him as a 'dirty saffa'.

thebaz

boksmashoffice wrote: »

He was pumped up and wanted to physically impose himself on Luke.

Why ? - Burger is a big flanker , Luke F. is a slight winger

desertcircus

boksmashoffice wrote: »

Fishooks12 wrote: »

Putting it all under the guise of frustration doesn't excuse the marked distinction between to two incidents

Burger was playing his 50th test match. He was pumped up and wanted to physically impose himself on Luke. Again I will put it down as a regrettable incident. I don't think Schalk is a dirty player, he plays on the edge to get the best out of himself. You probably see him as a 'dirty saffa'.

You don't physically impose yourself on an opponent by sticking a finger in his eye. That explanation works for heat-of-the-moment physicality, not for putting your hand on a player's face, finding their eye and sticking a finger into it. Burger did something it's almost impossible to do without knowing what you're doing, and there's no ordinary grappling-a-rival-player's-face-while-on-the-ground behaviour that would be the starting point for any explanation involving Burger getting carried away. The guy committed a cowardly, disgraceful act of deliberate violence against a fellow professional and disgraced the Springbok jersey by doing it.

boksmashoffice

Well as a Bok supporter and rugby lover i did feel let down by his actions. That we can agree on.

leftleg

boksmashoffice wrote: »

Well as a Bok supporter and rugby lover i did feel let down by his actions. That we can agree on.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3nV-6bg0pRo&feature=youtube_gdata_player

boksmashoffice

leftleg wrote: »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3nV-6bg0pRo&feature=youtube_gdata_player

I'd love to know how many hits Schalk Burger has got on youtube in the last 48 hours.

leftleg

leftleg wrote: »

boksmashoffice wrote: »

Well as a Bok supporter and rugby lover i did feel let down by his actions. That we can agree on.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3nV-6bg0pRo&feature=youtube_gdata_player

That's 3 episodes of burger gouging scraping and bashing the eye or face areas; 2 of which r on Pocock; he s one of the dirtiest players around

leftleg

leftleg wrote: »

boksmashoffice wrote: »

Well as a Bok supporter and rugby lover i did feel let down by his actions. That we can agree on.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3nV-6bg0pRo&feature=youtube_gdata_player

That's 3 episodes of burger gouging scraping and bashing the eye or face areas; 2 of which r on Pocock; he s one of the dirtiest players around

leftleg

boksmashoffice wrote: »

leftleg wrote: »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3nV-6bg0pRo&feature=youtube_gdata_player

I'd love to know how many hits Schalk Burger has got on youtube in the last 48 hours.

You should b ashamed of yourself condoning a player that s all over youtube for gouging

KJY

I have nothing against any other SA player really (bar Brussow, a previous favourite player of mine, after that dive in the RWC vs Samoa) but I can't stand Burger!

boksmashoffice

leftleg wrote: »

You should b ashamed of yourself condoning a player that s all over youtube for gouging

his actions were disappointing. I was just pointing out, there were allot of clips of Burger via youtube. So please get off the high chair.

Look at the Original post....In your opinion its all Schalk Burger related?

GerM

"There are only three Irish players I would have in the Springboks side."

The rivalry between the sides over the last few years can probably be traced to 2004. I don't think the ROG try mattered that much. Before the game, Jake White said only BOD, POC and MOK would get in the Boks side. It was isolated and taken out of context in the Irish media and used as motivational stuff. Ireland won the game and it was rubbed in the face of the Boks with it being shoved in White's face in the press conference. Both White and EOS spoke about it in their autobiographies with both still holding a grudge over it. A number of the senior players remained central figures in both sides since then. ROG, POC, BOD and DOC were all in the 22 that day for Ireland as were JdV, Matfield, Burger, Botha and Smit. A core of players that went on to face one another continually over the next 6 years.

A few incidents haven't helped since then such as the Burger gouge and booting the ball into the crowd in Croke Park nor have the Irish players been short of niggle when playing S.A. but I'd say it's traceable to that one game. Also, it's not even that much of a rivalry. Every pair of tier one countries have incidents like that they can draw on.

boksmashoffice

Jake started it. Thanks for the info GerM.

leftleg

boksmashoffice wrote: »

leftleg wrote: »

You should b ashamed of yourself condoning a player that s all over youtube for gouging

his actions were disappointing. I was just pointing out, there were allot of clips of Burger via youtube. So please get off the high chair.

Look at the Original post....In your opinion its all Schalk Burger related?

Look I'm not on any high horse; you said earlier that in your opinion he is mot a dirty player; youtube clearly says otherwise in numerous cases;

boksmashoffice

He is a physical player who may have crossed the line and has been punished according to his actions.

thebaz

boksmashoffice wrote: »

He is a physical player who may have crossed the line

may have crossed the line ?? - gouging with intent is undefensible, its worse than biting in my book

marc96

what about the irish player gouging the All black player recently????do a search,get off Burgers back,he is a class player and you just jealous.he puts his body on the line more than anyother player,ive seen him get his teeth knocked out and he still played the full game with just cotton wool stuffed in his mouth.....and he played a full 30min with a neck injury.

boksmashoffice

thebaz wrote: »

may have crossed the line ?? - gouging with intent is undefensible, its worse than biting in my book

The findings of the citing hearing by Alan Hudson


' He was found guilty of making contact with the face in the eye area of Lions wing Luke Fitzgerald, but received only a yellow card.'

judicial officer Alan Hudson, who heard the Burger case, said he did not find the player’s actions intentional, but he did believe them to be "clearly reckless".

And Hudson added he was "unable to conclude" any eye-gouging on Burger’s part, although he said contact with Fitzgerald’s left eye could not be described as "insignificant".

In deciding on the length of ban – which was lower than many people expected – Hudson took into account Burger’s previous disciplinary record, his character and the player’s remorse.

This is all from the citing for that Burger Case.

Feel Free to read yourself.

Cpt_Blackbeard

marc96 wrote: »

what about the irish player gouging the All black player recently????do a search,get off Burgers back,he is a class player and you just jealous.he puts his body on the line more than anyother player,ive seen him get his teeth knocked out and he still played the full game with just cotton wool stuffed in his mouth.....and he played a full 30min with a neck injury.

And that excuses him for repeatedly trying to blind opposition players?

thebaz

marc96 wrote: »

what about the irish player gouging the All black player recently????do a search,get off Burgers back,he is a class player and you just jealous.he puts his body on the line more than anyother player,ive seen him get his teeth knocked out and he still played the full game with just cotton wool stuffed in his mouth.....and he played a full 30min with a neck injury.

looked a lot more intent than mcloughlins (he was unsighted) - certainly not jealous of Burger, the question was raised why the Irish dont particularly like the South Africans - perhaps the truth hurts

boksmashoffice

The question was asked. I have read and respected your points of view. I think it was summed up previously, when guys play against each other for 6 years , The rivalry builds but i hope there is mutual respect. That is the whole point of Rugby. This is why its the best team sport on the planet bar non. Guys go and sweat, bleed for the Jersey. When the hooter sounds, whatever happens on the pitch stays on the pitch and you go and have a beer, swap jerseys and have a chat with the guy you did battle with for 80 odd minutes.


That I hope never changes.

errlloyd

boksmashoffice wrote: »

The question was asked. I have read and respected your points of view. I think it was summed up previously, when guys play against each other for 6 years , The rivalry builds but i hope there is mutual respect. That is the whole point of Rugby. This is why its the best team sport on the planet bar non. Guys go and sweat, bleed for the Jersey. When the hooter sounds, whatever happens on the pitch stays on the pitch and you go and have a beer, swap jerseys and have a chat with the guy you did battle with for 80 odd minutes.


That I hope never changes.

I'd be ashamed if it emerged it was true that Irish players deterred an entire Lions team from having drinks over the incidents discussed here. I hope its not true. I hope Smit got bad information or a twisted rumour. But I love playing South Africa, I love South African rugby fans, I am hoping to do a postgrad in Stellenbosch because I want to be close to South African rugby.

As far as I am concerned there is little rivalry between us.

basillarkin

Not a 100% clear but if this is not intent then I don't know what is? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_rM0W-GSBo

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/britishandirishlionsrugby/5723637/Lions-2009-Schalk-Burger-refuses-to-apologise-to-Luke-Fitzgerald-for-eye-gouge.html

boksmashoffice

basillarkin wrote: »

Not a 100% clear but if this is not intent then I don't know what is? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_rM0W-GSBo

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/britishandirishlionsrugby/5723637/Lions-2009-Schalk-Burger-refuses-to-apologise-to-Luke-Fitzgerald-for-eye-gouge.html

I am only quoting what was concluded by the Judicial officer.

Its disappointing he did not apologise. That probably pissed off the Lions i guess, Because he is Irish, maybe it pissed them off more, You stand up for your team mates.

Well one thing is for certain, They will not be visiting each other houses next time they are on tour.

One of the beauties of the old school lions tours was opposition players became great friends

Willie john always meets up with Morne Du pleissis when he is in SA and vice versa.

Jason Leonard put his jersey in a plastic bag and gave it to John Smit after the sharks and Lions match in 1997. Smit was nobody in 1997. Just a prop starting out his career.

Smit returned the favour in 2003.

That is the spirit of rugby.

Fishooks12

marc96 wrote: »

what about the irish player gouging the All black player recently????do a search,get off Burgers back,he is a class player and you just jealous.he puts his body on the line more than anyother player,ive seen him get his teeth knocked out and he still played the full game with just cotton wool stuffed in his mouth.....and he played a full 30min with a neck injury.

So because an Irish player was allegedly involved in gouging (it wasn't, just careless hand placement), that excuses Burger for doing it numerous times? What an odd logic

Although you do think Pierrie Spies is the best 8 on the planet too so who needs logic

thebaz

boksmashoffice wrote: »

TGuys go and sweat, bleed for the Jersey. When the hooter sounds, whatever happens on the pitch stays on the pitch and you go and have a beer, swap jerseys and have a chat with the guy you did battle with for 80 odd minutes.


That I hope never changes.

i think it has , with professionalism - the hits are harder, its a persons lively hood , so it can get a bit personal - I'd say there are many pro players who dont want to share beers after losing , or after getting a hiding of some sort on the field - some players , probably most , are able to laugh and joke after, but certainly not all

boksmashoffice

Although you do think Pierrie Spies is the best 8 on the planet too so who needs logic[/QUOTE]


We do not think Pierre is the best 8. infact we don't want him in the team. a back row of Smith (when fit), Brossow and Alberts is our best combo.

We are having issues where our current coach is picking too many bulls players.

spies may be a good impact player. personally i would not pick him to start.

boksmashoffice

thebaz wrote: »

i think it has , with professionalism - the hits are harder, its a persons lively hood , so it can get a bit personal - I'd say there are many pro players who dont want to share beers after losing , or after getting a hiding of some sort on the field - some players , probably most , are able to laugh and joke after, but certainly not all

Maybe I am a dinosaur or old school with rugby.
The fans suffer more than the players. i go through the mill every sat when the Boks play.

i am sure you are the same for ireland.

Fishooks12

boksmashoffice wrote: »

Although you do think Pierrie Spies is the best 8 on the planet too so who needs logic

We do not think Pierre is the best 8. infact we don't want him in the team. a back row of Smith (when fit), Brossow and Alberts is our best combo.

We are having issues where our current coach is picking too many bulls players.

spies may be a good impact player. personally i would not pick him to start.[/QUOTE]

That poster has previously said he's the best 8 in world though

thebaz

boksmashoffice wrote: »

i am sure you are the same for ireland.

Unfortunatly Ireland under its present management are worse than dreadful, for the talent available

boksmashoffice

Fishooks12 wrote: »

We do not think Pierre is the best 8. infact we don't want him in the team. a back row of Smith (when fit), Brossow and Alberts is our best combo.

We are having issues where our current coach is picking too many bulls players.

spies may be a good impact player. personally i would not pick him to start.

That poster has previously said he's the best 8 in world though[/QUOTE]

Pierre was brilliant before 2007. Then he had the setback. I personally don't think he is back playing at that level.

As much as it pains me to say I would say Read is the best 8 (even the best player on planet)

Fishooks12

boksmashoffice wrote: »

That poster has previously said he's the best 8 in world though

Pierre was brilliant before 2007. Then he had the setback. I personally don't think he is back playing at that level.

As much as it pains me to say I would say Read is the best 8 (even the best player on planet)[/QUOTE]

I'd agree that Reid is the best 8 alright, hard to quantify the best player in the world though given the huge differences in positions

boksmashoffice

Its a very difficult to quantify. I guess it is a matter of opinion. Fans see players through their tinted glasses. Read has been very consistent. Turns up every game I see him play in.