Ireland World Cup 2014 qualifying - insurmountable task?

Father Damo

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

If we were to change system and pick the best squad available can we get at least playoff?

I reckon we can.

We definitely can.

However, Trap is still playing a system that got us this qualification and got us a robbed one in 2009. That was all good until we tried playing his ame against teams that we underestimated. We always knew we were going to lose against Spain but I do reckon most of us stuck to our guns in saying that Croatia and Italy were both past it sides living off old reputations, and we got found out. Whether he is willing to change the system is his perogorative.

Rekop dog

Sweden playing their home fixtures v Germany on the last match day could be an advantage for them, much like in the Euro qualifiers against Holland, Germany will most likely have their qualification assured at that point making it an easier tie for the Sweeds. They're also an ageing side like ourselves tough, no great shakes. We're the third best team in the group and have a decent outside chance.

professore

darkman2 wrote: »

I noticed Keith Andrews playing against Spain and Italy. I didn't notice Glen Whelan.

I noticed Whelan alright - either playing passes straight to the opposition or ballooning balls everywhere. Then again he's always done that and has been generally poor for Ireland. Can't fault his effort but he's just not good enough.

ozzy jr

Competitive wins under Trapattoni,

Georgia (2), Cyprus (2), Armenia (2), Andorra (2), Macedonia (2), Estonia (1).

It doesn't exactly inspire you with confidence going into this group. 6 points against Austria, Faroe Islands and Kazachstan are amust if they want to make a decent go of getting second spot.

cgpg5

Hopefully Germany get a 100% record. We can definitely beat sweden at home I feel and that might be enough. Hopefully kazakhstan take points off either Sweden or Austria too. Either way there is little chance we'd win a play off though. At least 24 teams qualify in 4 years though!

noodler

ozzy jr wrote: »

Competitive wins under Trapattoni,

Georgia (2), Cyprus (2), Armenia (2), Andorra (2), Macedonia (2), Estonia (1).

It doesn't exactly inspire you with confidence going into this group. 6 points against Austria, Faroe Islands and Kazachstan are amust if they want to make a decent go of getting second spot.

Well in those qualifying games, losses under Trap:

France (1), Russia (1).

Its not all doom and gloom.

I have to wonder if some people only tuned in for the Euros and haven't been watching the qualifiers for the last four years.

It doesn't fill you with any kind of grand optimism because of our playing style but we almost never lose qualifiers.

The main difference in this campaign for me is simple that we have no chance, and will have no chance at anytime during the campaign, of finishing top.

ronsgonawin

noodler wrote: »

Well in those qualifying games, losses under Trap:

France (1), Russia (1).

Its not all doom and gloom.

I have to wonder if some people only tuned in for the Euros and haven't been watching the qualifiers for the last four years.

It doesn't fill you with any kind of grand optimism because of our playing style but we almost never lose qualifiers.

The main difference in this campaign for me is simple that we have no chance, and will have no chance at anytime during the campaign, of finishing top.

Too be honest I wonder the same thing from you. Watching and being at the qualifiers was a nightmare. Watching through fingers praying. Luck was on our side all the way through and it was poor performances all the way through.

noodler

ronsgonawin wrote: »

Too be honest I wonder the same thing from you. Watching and being at the qualifiers was a nightmare. Watching through fingers praying. Luck was on our side all the way through and it was poor performances all the way through.

It was poor in terms of ball retention and attractive play but the number of goals conceded, even when it sometimes felt it was by conincidence rather than design, was very low and we are were always competitive.

It just seems there was a gritty optimism before the Euros and I don't think getting hammered by Spain and, to a lesser extent, Croatia and Italy warrents the huge shift in opinions.

Fight_Night

noodler wrote: »

It was poor in terms of ball retention and attractive play but the number of goals conceded, even when it sometimes felt it was by conincidence rather than design, was very low and we are were always competitive.

It just seems there was a gritty optimism before the Euros and I don't think getting hammered by Spain and, to a lesser extent, Croatia and Italy warrents the huge shift in opinions.

Sweden are a bit tougher than Slovakia and Bulgaria though. I don't think we'll be able to rely on Austria or Kazakhstan beating them, which is ultimately what got us through to the Euros(Armenia beating Slovakia).

noodler

Fight_Night wrote: »

Sweden are a bit tougher than Slovakia and Bulgaria though. I don't think we'll be able to rely on Austria or Kazakhstan beating them,

They are a much better outfit than the Slovaks and Bulgarians without really having amazingly creative players, Ibra aside.

But if our second seed being a little tougher is the only material difference (I don't see anyone taking points of Germany) then I wouldn't go all doom and gloom.

Fight_Night wrote: »

which is ultimately what got us through to the Euros(Armenia beating Slovakia).

In fairness, not letting the Slovaks beat us, being the only team to win in Yervan and Russia beating Slovakia in Bratislava also played a part!

sReq | uTeK

How many of you would have mick back at the helm, I know I would have.

eagle eye

So we had a bad Euros where the two teams that qualified from our group went on to contest the final.

Spain thumped Italy in the final like they did us in the group stages. Italy beat the Germans 2-0 like they did us on the group stages.

Its not all that bad people. We have a few young players to come in now hopefully. We have an excellent coach who miraculously got us to the Euros.

kitakyushu

eagle eye wrote: »

So we had a bad Euros where the two teams that qualified from our group went on to contest the final.

Spain thumped Italy in the final like they did us in the group stages. Italy beat the Germans 2-0 like they did us on the group stages.

Its not all that bad people. We have a few young players to come in now hopefully. We have an excellent coach who miraculously got us to the Euros.

To be fair it was 2-1 v Germany and Italy losing 4-0 yesterday was nothing like us losing 4-0.

I think people are worried now because before we could laugh off performances such as the 0-0 v Russia and the 0-0 v Slovakia and say "shure didn't we get the result" against supposedly top opposition. I think the reality is dawning now as to what level we are actually operating at and how poor our opposition generally has been prior to the Euro finals.

kitakyushu

sReq | uTeK wrote: »

How many of you would have mick back at the helm, I know I would have.

Haha, in a second. Tho I don't know why he'd come back to the same scene that hounded him out of a job in the first place.

Ireland 1998-2002. A winning team playing attractive football. Our best team ever imho.

population

I would rather see another manager than Mick again tbh. He too had his limitations though I liked him and still do. I would not be averse to Curbishley getting the gig as he was doing a very solid job at West Ham before being completely unfairly sacked. Now his name is mentioned in the same 'managerial merry go round' joke circles that include Megson, Bruce etc which again based on his record is unfair. Also his Charlton teams though brittle at times played some lovely stuff. Moot points though, if Delaney could save himself having to do any work by giving Trap a 20 year contract he would do it.

aindriu80

we are not a terrible team but tactically we could do a lot better. There are better players for us out there but changing to a 4-3-3 and bringing them in might not be the best time. The league of Ireland clubs should all use 4-3-3.

Germany looked pretty impressive at times but we can realistically aim for 2nd spot and get through in the qualifiers.

TaosHum

To be fair to Trap, he has gotten us out of two qualifying groups in two campaigns, so I dont see why people are writing off our chances off so easily. Sweden are no world beaters IMO and are not much better at keeping possession, which is good from an Irish angle. The reason we got shown up so bad at the Euro's was because every team in our group are technically very good, Sweden aren't from what I saw of them against Ukraine and England.

Germany sweeping this group is the best thing possible, as we have no hope of competing against them. What we do against Sweden and Austria will be the key, as Trap knows how to get by poor sides.

briany

I think that Trap will have to now give some of these fringe players a chance now. There'll be pressure on him from all sides to do and maybe even from within his own circle (which is the one with the most influence I'd guess). There's no real excuse not to anymore and I think some of the players who have played under him will have lost faith or have grown complacent in the system he has used and so a look at a change in program, in personnel could only be a good thing. There's not much to lose because as it stands, the team risks being badly shown up two competitions in a row.

eire4

Sadly I don't see us having the ability to get out of this group. Trapattoni and his ideas have got us back to being competitive. But he is not the man to take us further and his stone age tactics have been well found out at this point and get exposed by any top teams.
We have no chance against Germany who will hump us home and away. Sweden are clearly better then us. For me the question is can we at least get third place and finish ahead of Austria. I have absolutely no faith in Trappattoni at this point other then we will be difficult to beat and play against for most teams. But sorry for me that is not good enough. We should be looking to take the next step and that means being actually able to possess the ball and play. Being better technically. These things don't happen over night but we should be looking to develop our top players so we have a team that is yes competeitive, yes physcial and difficult to beat but also can play a bit, is also creative and attractive to watch and has players that inspire the next generation to continue the legacy.

eire4

kitakyushu wrote: »

Haha, in a second. Tho I don't know why he'd come back to the same scene that hounded him out of a job in the first place.

Ireland 1998-2002. A winning team playing attractive football. Our best team ever imho.

I would be happy if Big Mick was back in charge of the team. I disagree that his team was our best ever though. That for me was our 1988 European Championship Finals team. It is sometimes easy to forget that we actually were right there in contention to win that title.

SantryRed

We won't qualify, we got horrendously lucky last time out and won't get it this time. Haven't got the players to bail us out of Trappatoni's retarded tactics. He won't change things.

klose

"we'll be grand"

Stevecw

sReq | uTeK wrote: »

How many of you would have mick back at the helm, I know I would have.

Love to see him back in charge.

Best manager we had since Jack. Played some good football under him too.

If we got Mick back i'd give us some hope of getting 2nd. Might see some decent players get picked too and might even get some crowds into the Aviva.

With Trap in charge, we'll finish 4th with lots of draws and 3 crucial losses to Germany, Sweden and Austria. Aviva will be about half full as nobody wants to see any more Trap style anti-football.

Sergio

We need a new approach and big change in attitude from the players. The younger players need to be given a chance and the old reliables need to pull up their socks!

G.K.

I'm an advocate for an overhaul but Ireland as they are will have no problem finishing 3rd imo. Austria aren't that much of a threat.

darkman2

G.K. wrote: »

I'm an advocate for an overhaul but Ireland as they are will have no problem finishing 3rd imo. Austria aren't that much of a threat.

If you were not Welsh this post would not irritate me at all:cool:


I do think 3rd would be about right given Germany and Sweden are both top teams worthy of 1st seeds really. Having said that we should not have been 3rd seeds. We should have been second as I explained in the OP.

JerryHandbag

sReq | uTeK wrote: »

How many of you would have mick back at the helm, I know I would have.

He's certainly young enough to get another crack at the whip, and I think he's said so himself that he'd be open to coming back.

Wouldn't be a bad appointment at all IMO.

kitakyushu

Its a no win situation for Mick as far as I can see. If he came back then people would expect him to repeat the level of performances and results had during his first stint. However I honestly couldn't see him (or anyone) reproducing that with what is currently available.

So if you were replacing Trap purely because you were looking for better results then I think you'd be wasting your time. He's done a good job in that regard at least. I personally don't believe Ireland can be any more successful with the panel of players we have. What I want at this point is just to see the Ireland team playing exciting cavalier football again for a change.

briany

kitakyushu wrote: »

Its a no win situation for Mick as far as I can see. If he came back then people would expect him to repeat the level of performances and results had during his first stint. However I honestly couldn't see him (or anyone) reproducing that with what is currently available.

So if you were replacing Trap purely because you were looking for better results then I think you'd be wasting your time. He's done a good job in that regard at least. I personally don't believe Ireland can be any more successful with the panel of players we have. What I want at this point is just to see the Ireland team playing exciting cavalier football again for a change.

Trap's the devil to be hounded out and Mick is the messiah to be hounded in. Not your words but there seems to be a growing movement for Mick (flush). He was hounded out last time around as well and ,to be honest, the way he was treated was shameful and he needn't make any overtures to the FAI knowing full well they'd do it to him again if he failed to live up to their improbable standards.

Trap's not going anywhere soon. All we want is to see some of the promising players who have not been getting a game be given a chance. Things with them may not be so different though and they may fail but we'll at least know that it was tried and it just wasn't good enough. It would be a constructive failure. There won't be a better time to do it, there's no good excuses not to do it, so let's hope it gets done!

ozzy jr

Fail to win in Kazakhstan and the next game is home to Germany. Another non victory will see the beginning of the end for Trapattoni.

noodler

ozzy jr wrote: »

Fail to win in Kazakhstan and the next game is home to Germany. Another non victory will see the beginning of the end for Trapattoni.

LoL.

A non-victory against Germany?

Thats guaranteed I'd say! A draw would be a great result.

sReq | uTeK

Stevecw wrote: »

Love to see him back in charge.

Best manager we had since Jack. Played some good football under him too.

If we got Mick back i'd give us some hope of getting 2nd. Might see some decent players get picked too and might even get some crowds into the Aviva.

With Trap in charge, we'll finish 4th with lots of draws and 3 crucial losses to Germany, Sweden and Austria. Aviva will be about half full as nobody wants to see any more Trap style anti-football.

I just love Mick, so honest with the media, no bull**** just says it how it is.
Is not afraid to give young players a go, has thrown them in at the helm in the premier league, not afraid to put his hands up and admit mistakes.

MICK FOR IRELAND.

Start the trend now

sReq | uTeK

kitakyushu wrote: »

Its a no win situation for Mick as far as I can see. If he came back then people would expect him to repeat the level of performances and results had during his first stint. However I honestly couldn't see him (or anyone) reproducing that with what is currently available.

So if you were replacing Trap purely because you were looking for better results then I think you'd be wasting your time. He's done a good job in that regard at least. I personally don't believe Ireland can be any more successful with the panel of players we have. What I want at this point is just to see the Ireland team playing exciting cavalier football again for a change.

I agree, 110% I don't think we would repeat the level of performance, i.e nearly beating Spain in 2002, which would of left us against a decent but beatable Korean team AND possibly seen us to a semi final, no way in hell we would be repeating that with the player pool.

But he WOULD give youth a chance, he WOULD adapt the system, he WOULDN'T sit back for 90 minutes in the hope of sneaking a goal from a set piece or blunder from the opposition he WOULD go out and give it a go, and I think that's all the Irish people want to see.

Would I have been bothered losing 4-0 to Spain in the groups if we had gone out and played like Wigan/Swansea/Norwich do and give it a go against the big boys, No. I would have said well ****ing done.

noodler

kitakyushu wrote: »

I think people are worried now because before we could laugh off performances such as the 0-0 v Russia and the 0-0 v Slovakia and say "shure didn't we get the result" against supposedly top opposition. I think the reality is dawning now as to what level we are actually operating at and how poor our opposition generally has been prior to the Euro finals.

Thats fairly revisionist.

Slovakia were judged to be a very tough side going into the qualification campaign. They'd just had an excellent world cup and followed that up by winning in Moscow. Its no stain on us that they couldn't hold their nerve in Yerevan like we could.

Russia looked good in the Euros for the most part. I don't think there is any "supposedly" about them being top opposition.

ozzy jr

noodler wrote: »

LoL.

A non-victory against Germany?

Thats guaranteed I'd say! A draw would be a great result.

A defeat to Germany on it's own is to be accepted, but following a draw/defeat in Kazakhstan and it will be game over for qualifying and for Trap.

kitakyushu

noodler wrote: »

Thats fairly revisionist.

Slovakia were judged to be a very tough side going into the qualification campaign. They'd just had an excellent world cup and followed that up by winning in Moscow. Its no stain on us that they couldn't hold their nerve in Yerevan like we could.

Russia looked good in the Euros for the most part. I don't think there is any "supposedly" about them being top opposition.

Yeah and that's the point.

We thought these teams were good. Turns out they weren't. Just like our great results against France and Italy the previous campaign were shown in a different light when both flopped at the finals.

This year 6 out of 9 qualifying group winners made it to the quarter finals at least. Russia, Denmark and Holland failed. The latter two were in the "group of death". What was Russia's excuse?

Russia's qualifying runner-up (ie us) put in the joint worst performance in the history of the Euros. Third place went to ..... Armenia. This should tell you something about the level we've been operating at. If you can't see that we were in by far the weakest qualifying group and that getting a few 0-0's vs these teams after being totally outplayed is no major pluspoint then that's your own problem.

noodler

kitakyushu wrote: »

Yeah and that's the point.

We thought these teams were good. Turns out they weren't. Just like our great results against France and Italy the previous campaign were shown in a different light when both flopped at the finals.

I really think you are the most reactionary poster on the soccer thread.

The real failure of Slovakia's campaign was their inability to beat Armenia.

It doesn't mean they are some not a decent team.

kitakyushu wrote: »

This year 6 out of 9 qualifying group winners made it to the quarter finals at least. Russia, Denmark and Holland failed. The latter two were in the "group of death". What was Russia's excuse?

They don't need an excuse, they hammered the Czechs, were held in a debry with the hosts and were the victims of a smash-and-grab against Greece.

You are again making too many definitive judgements based on a team's last performance - you will never have any consistency in your judgement of a team's ability if you take the latest result in isolation.

Russia are a very good team, how we can argue they weren't because they didn't make the last 8 purely because of head-to-heads is beyond me.

kitakyushu wrote: »

Russia's qualifying runner-up (ie us) put in the joint worst performance in the history of the Euros. Third place went to ..... Armenia. This should tell you something about the level we've been operating at. If you can't see that we were in by far the weakest qualifying group and that getting a few 0-0's vs these teams after being totally outplayed is no major pluspoint then that's your own problem.

??
That part of your post is garbage. A really nonsensical set of presumptions and follow-on logic.

kitakyushu

You rating Slovakia on what they did in a previous campaign is garbage and trying to spin their declining results into some achievement for Ireland is garbage.

You calling Russians top opposition after failing to even qualify from the weakest group in the finals, is again, garbage.

sydthebeat

If we continue with traps tactics of "gaa" football, we will go nowhere in that group.... a fight for third place with austria is how i see it.

gosplan

People here are still arguing from the point that any manager will give us all the wins against the weaker opposition and then set us up better to beat stronger ones.

This is a seriously false assumption.

We do not drop points to weaker teams - that's why we get out of groups. Obviously, we weren't set up well enough to have a good stap at the actual competition but other managers simply wouldn't get us there in the first place with this group of players.

Personally, I'm hoping Trap learns from this tournament and makes a few changes but keeps the tight system - otherwise we'll be the team rueing the away loss to Armenia.

Apart from times where we had a really strong pool of talent, this has always been what's stopped us from qualifying.

ctrl-alt-delete

Germany should walk it and I expect Sweden to be too good for us too.

I honestly think it will be a tough fight with Austria for 3rd place.

Austria were in the same group as Germany in Euro2012 qualification, although Germany thumped them 6-2 in Germany it took a last minute goal to get victory in Austria with it finishing 2-1.


They also had a 4-4 draw away to Belgium, although they lost 2-0 at home to them, they also held Turkey 0-0 at home.

So they have had some decent results in a group with a similar level to which they find themselves in with us now.

gosplan

Oh and for those looking for McCarthy back ... What follows is not an attack on the guy and obviously leaves out 2002 ... but I think it's interesting that people assume he could be able to fix the current problems.

1998 - draws to Iceland and Lithuainia and loss to Macedonia. Lost playoff to Belgium.

2000 - a draw with Macedonia - cost us automatic qualification. We did however beat Yugoslavia and Croatia in qualifying who were both higher ranked than us - obviously the main indicator of success. Rendered redundant however by the fact that we also lost to both of them.

2004 - got spanked away by Russia and beaten at home by Switzerland and McCarthy went.

It should also be noted that we were second seeds for the 1998 draw and first seeds for the final campaign

Also, funnily enough, wikipedia notes that in 2004, McCarthy's 'persistence with several players and tactics that some perceived to be inadequate did him damage'

Ho-hum

gosplan

ctrl-alt-delete wrote: »

Germany should walk it and I expect Sweden to be too good for us too.

I honestly think it will be a tough fight with Austria for 3rd place.

Austria were in the same group as Germany in Euro2012 qualification, although Germany thumped them 6-2 in Germany it took a last minute goal to get victory in Austria with it finishing 2-1.


They also had a 4-4 draw away to Belgium, although they lost 2-0 at home to them, they also held Turkey 0-0 at home.

So they have had some decent results in a group with a similar level to which they find themselves in with us now.

Tbh we need a wildcard like Austria in our group if we're to have any hope of getting out of it. We just need to beat them twice as well.

noodler

kitakyushu wrote: »

You rating Slovakia on what they did in a previous campaign is garbage and trying to spin their declining results into some achievement for Ireland is garbage.

Before the qualfiiers start, Slovakia were seen as very stern opposition due to their previous world cup - okay? We can agree on that?

Now, they then beat Russia in Moscow. Pretty damn good result, okay? Now, we still didn't beat them and I thought they were the better team at the Aviva so they weren't at all bad in those games.

Now, as I said, what ultimately cost them is failing to match the results we got against Armenia. You have a problem with giving Armenia any credit for this despite the fact they were clearly a decent side when we played them, despite the fact they took a point of Russia, despite the fact they were consistent against the other minnows.

So you are willing to argue that Slovakia turned out to be crap despite previous perceptions but refuse to give Armenia any credit for being better than we previously percieved?

In short, Slovakia were crap so we should have beat them but Armenia being good was because we (and Slovakia and Russia) were crap so of course we should have beat them.

kitakyushu wrote: »

You calling Russians top opposition after failing to even qualify from the weakest group in the finals, is again, garbage.

That is the same crap I just called you on in the previous post. Are the Dutch not a top team?

Way too reactionary. One bad game against the Greeks does not make the Russians a bad team.

kitakyushu

noodler wrote: »

Way too reactionary. One bad game against the Greeks does not make the Russians a bad team.

It's nothing to do with that. I'm rating the quality of group we qualified from based on all their results (and ours).

In first place we have a team that couldn't even make it to the quarter finals from the weakest group in the finals. Also you comparing the Russians to the Dutch is a joke too. Russia were in a piss weak group and failed to qualify. Holland were not.

Now back to the qual group. In second place you have a team that achieved the joint worst ever performance in the Euro finals. Even to lose all three games wouldn't have been a disgrace, but to be outplayed three times, get a minus 8 GD and put up no sort of a fight was an embarrasment. Did you know that every single team at Euro 2012 was at least winning a game at some point during the tournament (except Ireland)? That's how bad we were.

So by anyones yardstick that is a poor showing from the representatives of Qualifying Group B and by anyones logic the teams at qualification stage who actually finished several points behind these two are even poorer still.

You seem to be bigging up the likes of Armenia and Slovakia purely because you think it makes Ireland look good as a result. I'm saying they weren't any good and have demonstrated why I think this.

By comparison your logic seems to be nothing more than "Armenia played well against us, Russia played well against us, Slovakia played well against us, therefore they are all good teams", rather than going "wait a minute! Ireland are poor and so are all of the aforementioned". It's like the Faroe Islands thinking Northern Ireland are a top team because they were played off the pitch by them. Bizarre rationalisation from you.

Trap talks about judging teams on results. You should maybe follow his advice when it comes to the likes of Russia rather than just wowing that they can occasionally go 2-0 up at half-time against mediocre opposition and then flatter to deceive the rest of the time.

noodler

kitakyushu wrote: »

In first place we have a team that couldn't even make it to the quarter finals from the weakest group in the finals. Also you comparing the Russians to the Dutch is a joke too. Russia were in a piss weak group and failed to qualify. Holland were not.

Again, pretty much making your entire judgement based on three Euro games which took place over a 10 day period.

Russia got 4 points by the way, Holland got none but that doesn't change the fact that Russia being knocked-out (on head-to-head) doesn't make them poor opposition.

kitakyushu wrote: »

Now back to the qual group. In second place you have a team that achieved the joint worst ever performance in the Euro finals. Even to lose all three games wouldn't have been a disgrace, but to be outplayed three times, get a minus 8 GD and put up no sort of a fight was an embarrasment. Did you know that every single team at Euro 2012 was at least winning a game at some point during the tournament (except Ireland)? That's how bad we were.

Alot of that is warped logic in my opinion.

kitakyushu wrote: »

So by anyones yardstick that is a poor showing from the representatives of Qualifying Group B and by anyones logic the teams at qualification stage who actually finished several points behind these two are even poorer still.

Russia were pretty good actually. Did you watch their games?

kitakyushu wrote: »

You seem to be bigging up the likes of Armenia and Slovakia purely because you think it makes Ireland look good as a result. I'm saying they weren't any good and have demonstrated why I think this.

Quite the opposite - you are refusing to give any recognition to what Ireland achieved in the group.

I don't need to big up Armenia - their results in the group (As a fifth seed no less) speak for themselves:

Armenia 3-1 Slovakia
Slovakia 0-4 Armenia
Russia 0-0 Armenia

kitakyushu wrote: »

By comparison your logic seems to be nothing more than "Armenia played well against us, Russia played well against us, Slovakia played well against us, therefore they are all good teams", rather than going "wait a minute! Ireland are poor and so are all of the aforementioned". It's like the Faroe Islands thinking Northern Ireland are a top team because they were played off the pitch by them. Bizarre rationalisation from you.

???...No?

My logic is that Armenia's excellent performances in the group are more likely down to the fact that they were quite good rather than your assertion that everybody else was crap. It really is a reasonable proposition.

kitakyushu

Two finalist from the same groups who both flopped. Conclusion? Weak qualifying group.

Everything else you say about Armenia's performance against this team or Slovakia's against that team is academic.

gosplan

kitakyushu wrote: »

Two finalist from the same groups who both flopped. Conclusion? Weak qualifying group.

Everything else you say about Armenia's performance against this team or Slovakia's against that team is academic.

The two of you have descended into a boards off. Obviously the group was weak based on the relative coefficients of the teams in it when the draw was made.


kitakyushu - Is your argument that Trap actually hasn't really brought the squad forward because he qualified from a weak group and got an easy playoff?

kitakyushu

gosplan wrote: »

The two of you have descended into a boards off. Obviously the group was weak based on the relative coefficients of the teams in it when the draw was made.


kitakyushu - Is your argument that Trap actually hasn't really brought the squad forward because he qualified from a weak group and got an easy playoff?

My position is that Qualification Group B was one of the poorest of the 9 (and probably the poorest) and I have no time for people saying the likes of Armenia and Slovakia were good teams purely because they were able to compete with us. It was more a case of us being mediocre than them being good. Russia were well ahead of us but their capitulation in the finals again demonstrates that they were just the best of a bad lot in winning Qual group B.

I think Trap has done well with the players available to him. I do however think we qualified by virtue of an easy path to the finals. Our inability to even compete in Poland shows that we weren't genuine finals material to begin with.

Sanity_Saviour

kitakyushu wrote: »

gosplan wrote: »

The two of you have descended into a boards off. Obviously the group was weak based on the relative coefficients of the teams in it when the draw was made.


kitakyushu - Is your argument that Trap actually hasn't really brought the squad forward because he qualified from a weak group and got an easy playoff?

My position is that Qualification Group B was one of the poorest of the 9 (and probably the poorest) and I have no time for people saying the likes of Armenia and Slovakia were good teams purely because they were able to compete with us. It was more a case of us being mediocre than them being good. Russia were well ahead of us but their capitulation in the finals again demonstrates that they were just the best of a bad lot in winning Qual group B.

I think Trap has done well with the players available to him. I do however think we qualified by virtue of an easy path to the finals. Our inability to even compete in Poland shows that we weren't genuine finals material to begin with.

I'm sorry but you actually haven't a clue.

Slovakia qualified for 2010, Armenia had a superb series of results and Russia were worthy top seeds.

Russia ate the Czechs(2nd highest 2nd seeds for qualifying incidentally) alive, were the better team against Poland and were just unlucky against Greece. By your reasoning one loss is a 'capitulation'? Italy and Germany lost once, were their tournaments disasters?

Poorest of the 9? Look at England's and Croatia's
To be honest, not being competitive against 2 of the finalists, alongwith a Croatia side with an aggregate score of -1 against both teams is far from a disaster.