Ireland World Cup 2014 qualifying - insurmountable task?

kitakyushu

Sanity_Saviour wrote: »

I'm sorry but you actually haven't a clue.

Slovakia qualified for 2010, Armenia had a superb series of results and Russia were worthy top seeds.

Russia ate the Czechs(2nd highest 2nd seeds for qualifying incidentally) alive, were the better team against Poland and were just unlucky against Greece. By your reasoning one loss is a 'capitulation'? Italy and Germany lost once, were their tournaments disasters?

Poorest of the 9? Look at England's and Croatia's
To be honest, not being competitive against 2 of the finalists, alongwith a Croatia side with an aggregate score of -1 against both teams is far from a disaster.

I'm sorry you don't have a clue yourself etc. Never mind the nonsense you spout about Italy and Germanys losses (a semi-final and final) but you also talk about Croatia having one of the poorest groups (one they couldn't even even win) yet then they go and destroy us. Makes ya wonder how well we would have done in that "poor group" considering they only came second in it.

Go back to the drawing board with your rubbish.

noodler

kitakyushu wrote: »

I have no time for people saying the likes of Armenia and Slovakia were good teams purely because they were able to compete with us. It was more a case of us being mediocre than them being good. Russia were well ahead of us but their capitulation in the finals again demonstrates that they were just the best of a bad lot in winning Qual group B.

Heh, Armenia competed with Russia, with us, with Slovakia.

They were good period - not just good against us.

kitakyushu wrote: »

I'm sorry you don't have a clue yourself etc. Never mind the nonsense you spout about Italy and Germanys losses (a semi-final and final) but you also talk about Croatia having one of the poorest groups (one they couldn't even even win) yet then they go and destroy us. Makes ya wonder how well we would have done in that "poor group" considering they only came second in it.

Go back to the drawing board with your rubbish.

Heh. Oh dear, argument fail?

gosplan

kitakyushu wrote: »

I think Trap has done well with the players available to him. I do however think we qualified by virtue of an easy path to the finals.

But of course we did.

Looking at our WC group, it will be an amazing feat from Trap to get us qualified and looking at the past last Euro's qualification draw and the first and second seeds ....

Pot 1: Spain, Germany, Italy, Netherlands, England, Croatia, Portugal, France, Russia

Pot 2: Greece, Czech, Sweeden, Switzerland, Serbia, Turkey, Denmark, Slovakia, Romania

... you could pretty much say that we're only ever going to qualify if we get a nice draw.

I just don't get what you're adding??

We're always going to be relying on a soft draw or a capitulation by someone else to qualify and we're always going to be one of the worst teams if we do make it to the Euro's.

I mean what manager could make our team fit in with the Euro line-up?

kitakyushu

noodler wrote: »

Heh, Armenia competed with Russia, with us, with Slovakia.

They were good period - not just good against us.

Already addressed this. If you want to chase your tail all day then by all means go ahead.

Heh. Oh dear, argument fail?

Greece beat Russia, Croatia beat Ireland. if that doesn't tell you which of group B & F had the better qualifiers you must be either blind or stupid. Tho considering the amount of crap you spout about the Ireland team I'm actually having a hard time deciding which you are.

Lawrence1895

ctrl-alt-delete wrote: »

Germany should walk it and I expect Sweden to be too good for us too.

I honestly think it will be a tough fight with Austria for 3rd place.

Austria were in the same group as Germany in Euro2012 qualification, although Germany thumped them 6-2 in Germany it took a last minute goal to get victory in Austria with it finishing 2-1.


They also had a 4-4 draw away to Belgium, although they lost 2-0 at home to them, they also held Turkey 0-0 at home.

So they have had some decent results in a group with a similar level to which they find themselves in with us now.

Not sure, but wasn't Germany already qualified before travelling down to Vienna?

kitakyushu

gosplan wrote: »

But of course we did.

Well then we have no disagreement. It's that other guy who is trying to make out that Armenia and Slovakia were good teams and that Ireland actually performed some amazing feat to finish ahead of them.

noodler

kitakyushu wrote: »

Already addressed this. If you want to chase your tail all day then by all means go ahead.



Greece beat Russia, Croatia beat Ireland. if that doesn't tell you which of group B & F had the better qualifiers you must be either blind or stupid. Tho considering the amount of crap you spout about the Ireland team I'm actually having a hard time deciding which you are.

Yeah, I'd like to leave it up to the boards who talks the most crap about Ireland pal.

You haven't addressed anything, all you have done is use some pretty limited and raw logic that the failure of Russia or Ireland to advance to the Quarter-Finals of the Euros means, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that our qualification group was poor.

I wonder then, does Slovakia qualifiying for the last 16 of the last World Cup not make our qualification group strong? Or do you only ascribe to logical processes which further your 'argument'?

kitakyushu wrote: »

Greece beat Russia, Croatia beat Ireland. if that doesn't tell you which of group B & F had the better qualifiers you must be either blind or stupid.

Hah, such cut and dried logic!

Use your words by the way, if you feel you are losing an argument then politely desist or simply admit defeat. Don't let anger get the better of you.

kitakyushu

noodler wrote: »

Yeah, I'd like to leave it up to the boards who talks the most crap about Ireland pal.

Fortunately I don't need a consensus from other people to know when someone like you is talking crap about Ireland. In fact at this point I barely even have to read your posts. I just take it as a given.

You haven't addressed anything, all you have done is use some pretty limited and raw logic that the failure of Russia or Ireland to advance to the Quarter-Finals of the Euros means, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that our qualification group was poor.

Where have you addressed anything? As far as you're concerned if a bunch of teams nick wins and points off each other then they're all 'good'. You should watch League 2 in August, loads of good teams there by your logic.

I wonder then, does Slovakia qualifiying for the last 16 of the last World Cup not make our qualification group strong? Or does do you only ascribe to logical processes which further your 'argument'?

Why would you pair the finals of one tournament with the qualifiers from another? Even I'm not doing that. See just more nonsense from you to suit your wishful thinking that Ireland are a good team. Keep living the dream.

Sanity_Saviour

kitakyushu wrote: »

Sanity_Saviour wrote: »

I'm sorry but you actually haven't a clue.

Slovakia qualified for 2010, Armenia had a superb series of results and Russia were worthy top seeds.

Russia ate the Czechs(2nd highest 2nd seeds for qualifying incidentally) alive, were the better team against Poland and were just unlucky against Greece. By your reasoning one loss is a 'capitulation'? Italy and Germany lost once, were their tournaments disasters?

Poorest of the 9? Look at England's and Croatia's
To be honest, not being competitive against 2 of the finalists, alongwith a Croatia side with an aggregate score of -1 against both teams is far from a disaster.

I'm sorry you don't have a clue yourself etc. Never mind the nonsense you spout about Italy and Germanys losses (a semi-final and final) but you also talk about Croatia having one of the poorest groups (one they couldn't even even win) yet then they go and destroy us. Makes ya wonder how well we would have done in that "poor group" considering they only came second in it.

Go back to the drawing board with your rubbish.

Hahaha youre like a 7 year old being told Santa isn't real.

If you're basing the whole talent of a country on one game you clearly don't follow football.

You said Russia capitulated yet only lost one game, so did Italy and Germany. Before you spout whatever awful, ill-informed nonsense you have yourself, at least watch the games and not just glance at the results section in the paperint
Its actually hilarious watching you sulk about the team despite not actually having a real opinion. Did Trap ride yer missus or something?

Sanity_Saviour

kitakyushu wrote: »

noodler wrote: »

Yeah, I'd like to leave it up to the boards who talks the most crap about Ireland pal.

Fortunately I don't need a consensus from other people to know when someone like you is talking crap about Ireland. In fact at this point I barely even have to read your posts. I just take it as a given.

You haven't addressed anything, all you have done is use some pretty limited and raw logic that the failure of Russia or Ireland to advance to the Quarter-Finals of the Euros means, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that our qualification group was poor.

Where have you addressed anything? As far as you're concerned if a bunch of teams nick wins and points off each other then they're all 'good'. You should watch League 2 in August, loads of good teams there by your logic.

I wonder then, does Slovakia qualifiying for the last 16 of the last World Cup not make our qualification group strong? Or does do you only ascribe to logical processes which further your 'argument'?

Why would you pair the finals of one tournament with the qualifiers from another? Even I'm not doing that. See just more nonsense from you to suit your wishful thinking that Ireland are a good team. Keep living the dream.

You're talking about League 2 now?? Hahahaha


Noodler I think you've finally broken him :pac:

kitakyushu

Sanity_Saviour wrote: »

You're talking about League 2 now?? Hahahaha


Noodler I think you've finally broken him :pac:

Amazing how when two people with foolish opinions agree with each other then suddenly they presume they are right.

You two should meet up for pint. Maybe go to an Ireland game and convince each other about how good the Ireland team you're watching is as they spend 90 mins running around after the ball.

noodler

Ok kitakyushu,

Let me sum up your argument and if I do so correctly we can agree to disagree and move on.

kitakyushu's argument

Ireland's qualification group was evidently the poorest group for EURO 2012 qualification. This can be shown by the fact Ireland and Russia, both of whom qualified from this group, failed to advance to the knock-out stages of the tournament.

Slovakia and Armenia are both poor teams (too harsh?) and Armenia's results in particular against Russia and Slovakia were down to the poor performances of said teams rather than Armenia playing very well.

If I have represented your view correctly then we shall just agree to disagree.

kitakyushu

Sanity_Saviour wrote: »

Hahaha youre like a 7 year old being told Santa isn't real.

If you're basing the whole talent of a country on one game you clearly don't follow football.

You said Russia capitulated yet only lost one game, so did Italy and Germany. Before you spout whatever awful, ill-informed nonsense you have yourself, at least watch the games and not just glance at the results section in the paperint
Its actually hilarious watching you sulk about the team despite not actually having a real opinion. Did Trap ride yer missus or something?

Haha, look whose talking. You're comparing Italy (who lost a final) and Germany (who lost a semifinal) with Russia (who lost a game they didn't even have to win to qualify out of the weakest group in the tournament).

Again, your point is clueless.

kitakyushu

noodler wrote: »

Ok kitakyushu,

Let me sum up your argument and if I do so correctly we can agree to disagree and move on.



If I have represented your view correctly then we shall just agree to disagree.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=79536145&postcount=100

noodler

kitakyushu wrote: »

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=79536145&postcount=100

I summed up your argument well then.

kitakyushu

noodler wrote: »

I summed up your argument well then.

Yeah well done. You basically repeated something I had already said about 15 posts earlier.

Hopefully next time you'll be able to disagree with my opinion without accusing me of rewriting history and save us all 30 posts into the bargain.

noodler

kitakyushu wrote: »

Yeah well done. You basically repeated something I had already said.

Hopefully next time you'll be able to disagree with my opinion without accusing me of rewriting history and save us all 30 posts into the bargain.

Rewriting history?

I have thouroughly addressed the limited nature of your argument, in particular using nothing but Euro 2012 to assess the worthiness of the teams in our qualification group.

Your inability to defend your position without resorting to angry outbursts contributed to many of the recent posts.

kitakyushu

noodler wrote: »

Rewriting history?

I have thouroughly addressed the limited nature of your argument, in particular using nothing but Euro 2012 to assess the worthiness of the teams in our qualification group.

Your inability to defend your position without resorting to angry outbursts contributed to many of the recent posts.

Please don't try take the high ground here. Someone such as yourself who has offered nothing to determine the relative strengths of Ireland's qualification opponents and whose argument doesn't go beyond "everyone beating everyone means everyone is good" isn't worthy of such self-aggrandisation.

dfx-

Let's tone this down a few notches please.

gosplan

kitakyushu wrote: »

Well then we have no disagreement. It's that other guy who is trying to make out that Armenia and Slovakia were good teams and that Ireland actually performed some amazing feat to finish ahead of them.

Well we didn't slip up, that's the key.

Some would say not slipping up and dropping points against a team ranked lower is fairly impressive. As I've said before the three teams that achieved this in the last qualifying were Ireland, Spain and Germany. The time before, only Spain and Netherlands did it.

Now, I'm not saying we're of the same quality as those teams but what Trap has done is make us massively consistant, which is essentially the achillies heel of all teams ranked 3rd or 4th on the group.

And my problem with the Trap out argument(not talking about you here) is not that people want to remove him but that people seem to assume that this consistancy is the starting point for us.

Now, after the tournament, we can see there's a huge disconnect between not dropping points to montenegro and armenia and actually making a go of a Italy/Spain/Croatia group but the achievement in itself is what gets you qualified and clearly isn't easy, regardless of the group.

In short, I'm hoping for a modfied Trap who keeps this consistancy and maybe adds a bit more in the future. I agree with your argument about the quality of the group but you have to ask, why did slovakia slip up to armenia and we didn't?

Sanity_Saviour

kitakyushu wrote: »

Haha, look whose talking. You're comparing Italy (who lost a final) and Germany (who lost a semifinal) with Russia (who lost a game they didn't even have to win to qualify out of the weakest group in the tournament).

Again, your point is clueless.

You were wrong before, and you're still wrong now. Your argument was that Armenia and Slovakia must be awful because they didn't beat Ireland, and that Russia are awful because they only lost one game.

I'm sure it made sense to you at the time.

kitakyushu

Sanity_Saviour wrote: »

You were wrong before, and you're still wrong now. Your argument was that Armenia and Slovakia must be awful because they didn't beat Ireland, and that Russia are awful because they only lost one game.

I'm sure it made sense to you at the time.

As opposed to the nonsense you've been spouting up to now, which presumably still makes sense in your own mind?

In summary :
Qualifying Group B : Winners (not only failed to qualify for the last 8, but failed from within the easiest group in the finals), Runners-ups (lost every game in the finals with a joint record of 0pts , -8 GD).

These were the 'best' teams in Qualifying Group B. Work out the rest yourself if you can.

briany

gosplan wrote: »

Well we didn't slip up, that's the key.

Some would say not slipping up and dropping points against a team ranked lower is fairly impressive. As I've said before the three teams that achieved this in the last qualifying were Ireland, Spain and Germany. The time before, only Spain and Netherlands did it.

Now, I'm not saying we're of the same quality as those teams but what Trap has done is make us massively consistant, which is essentially the achillies heel of all teams ranked 3rd or 4th on the group.

And my problem with the Trap out argument(not talking about you here) is not that people want to remove him but that people seem to assume that this consistancy is the starting point for us.

Now, after the tournament, we can see there's a huge disconnect between not dropping points to montenegro and armenia and actually making a go of a Italy/Spain/Croatia group but the achievement in itself is what gets you qualified and clearly isn't easy, regardless of the group.

In short, I'm hoping for a modfied Trap who keeps this consistancy and maybe adds a bit more in the future. I agree with your argument about the quality of the group but you have to ask, why did slovakia slip up to armenia and we didn't?

I saw Equilibrium recently and thought about how Trap did a similar thing for Ireland as 'Father' did for the people. At the cost of the dizzying highs and the harrowing lows, the team could enjoy a sort of consistency but a pretty middling one it turns out. So many Irish teams of the past have turned out shocking results v. supposedly inferior opposition but also have enjoyed great results against better, often in the same campaign. Trap modifying his plan to allow a more progressive style with more adventurous players will be fine if it allows Ireland to be competitive and I think if Germany and Sweden play like they can play, I don't think that Trap has much of a choice but to try it as keeping the system and hoping Germany or Sweden implode makes a mockery of the wage packet he receives.

SantryRed

Did people actually watch us play in the past 2 qualifying tournaments? Do people not see how lucky we've been with Trap's tactics? It's nothing other than luck.

dsmythy

Seems there's a side to this debate over whether previous or future results of two teams in a fixture are better judges of the strength of the result of the game. Personally I'd go with future results being the indicator of the strength of opposition. Reason for this is that past results are an indicator of what a team was while results after the game are an indicator of where the team was heading. I'd put more weight to this.

Having said this it is my opinion that the strength of our Euro 2012 qualification group will be revealed by Euro 2012 games and results in the upcoming world cup qualifiers. Before then it's all mute conversation based on what teams were rather than how they were transitioning into future ability.

briany

SantryRed wrote: »

Did people actually watch us play in the past 2 qualifying tournaments? Do people not see how lucky we've been with Trap's tactics? It's nothing other than luck.

The team's tactics worked against the lower seeded teams because Ireland could bully them and they hadn't enough in attack to get the goals. There was huge luck involved in two nil nils vs. Russia and Slovakia as well as getting Armenia at the start, catching them cold and at the end when there was huge pressure on them.

SantryRed

briany wrote: »

The team's tactics worked against the lower seeded teams because Ireland could bully them and they hadn't enough in attack to get the goals. There was huge luck involved in two nil nils vs. Russia and Slovakia as well as getting Armenia at the start, catching them cold and at the end when there was huge pressure on them.

Are you serious?

We were absolutely murdered by some of the lesser teams in the past two qualifying phases and how we got out with wins is beyond comprehension. Games that spring to mind are:

Cyprus x2 (especially the home game where we were under enormous pressure and snuck out with a 1-0)

Montenegro (we didn't win either of these two games against them, both finishing 0-0)

Georgia at home (We were absolutely awful and if it wasn't for one of the most ridiculous penalty decisions given to us we would have lost 1-0, instead the peno shocked the Georgians and we scored again quickly after)

Georgia away ( We got lucky with the fact we had to play it in Mainz and it still wasn't convincing, I remember their keeper letting in a stinker)

Macedonia at home ( Dreadful display were we should have lost but managed to win 2-1)

Armenia at home (We got to play against ten men due to a ridiculous goalkeeper howler and then still we had the most idiotic own goal to put us 1-0 up, and even with ten men, we struggled and could have conceded before Dunne's goal to make it 2)

They weren't tactics. They were sheer luck.

smemon

I think Ireland are a different beast when it comes down to competitive matches at the Aviva or away from home mid-season...

They won't get taken apart like at the Euros. Partly because there's less pressure, partly because it's a familiar environment / mental preparation.

I don't think we'll qualify but we'll give Sweden a run for their money for 2nd spot. We've gotten better in recent years at beating teams ranked below us so i think we'll grind results against Faroes and Kazakhstan with Austria being the banana skin side of the group for everyone involved.

Trap should start Coleman, McClean etc... but with respect to those guys they're not going to transform the side in to world beaters which is what will have to happen if we're to beat Sweden / Germany and secure a spot in Brazil.

The problem is a combination of poor use of full backs, weak & characterless midfield that go missing in matches and Robbie Keane. Keane can't win balls or hold up play therefore if we insist on playing long ball / defensive tactics, Keane should be dropped as he's made redundant due to his inability to stamp on defenders toes and make a nuisance of himself.

Sanity_Saviour

SantryRed wrote: »

Are you serious?

We were absolutely murdered by some of the lesser teams in the past two qualifying phases and how we got out with wins is beyond comprehension. Games that spring to mind are:

Cyprus x2 (especially the home game where we were under enormous pressure and snuck out with a 1-0)

Montenegro (we didn't win either of these two games against them, both finishing 0-0)

Georgia at home (We were absolutely awful and if it wasn't for one of the most ridiculous penalty decisions given to us we would have lost 1-0, instead the peno shocked the Georgians and we scored again quickly after)

Georgia away ( We got lucky with the fact we had to play it in Mainz and it still wasn't convincing, I remember their keeper letting in a stinker)

Macedonia at home ( Dreadful display were we should have lost but managed to win 2-1)

Armenia at home (We got to play against ten men due to a ridiculous goalkeeper howler and then still we had the most idiotic own goal to put us 1-0 up, and even with ten men, we struggled and could have conceded before Dunne's goal to make it 2)

They weren't tactics. They were sheer luck.

But did we concede more goals than the other team? Nope.

SantryRed

Sanity_Saviour wrote: »

SantryRed wrote: »

Are you serious?

We were absolutely murdered by some of the lesser teams in the past two qualifying phases and how we got out with wins is beyond comprehension. Games that spring to mind are:

Cyprus x2 (especially the home game where we were under enormous pressure and snuck out with a 1-0)

Montenegro (we didn't win either of these two games against them, both finishing 0-0)

Georgia at home (We were absolutely awful and if it wasn't for one of the most ridiculous penalty decisions given to us we would have lost 1-0, instead the peno shocked the Georgians and we scored again quickly after)

Georgia away ( We got lucky with the fact we had to play it in Mainz and it still wasn't convincing, I remember their keeper letting in a stinker)

Macedonia at home ( Dreadful display were we should have lost but managed to win 2-1)

Armenia at home (We got to play against ten men due to a ridiculous goalkeeper howler and then still we had the most idiotic own goal to put us 1-0 up, and even with ten men, we struggled and could have conceded before Dunne's goal to make it 2)

They weren't tactics. They were sheer luck.

But did we concede more goals than the other team? Nope.

Ok let's wait until we actually lose games in this qualifying group before talking about our obvious problems :rolleyes:

noodler

kitakyushu wrote: »

As opposed to the nonsense you've been spouting up to now, which presumably still makes sense in your own mind?

In summary :
Qualifying Group B : Winners (not only failed to qualify for the last 8, but failed from within the easiest group in the finals), Runners-ups (lost every game in the finals with a joint record of 0pts , -8 GD).

These were the 'best' teams in Qualifying Group B. Work out the rest yourself if you can.

In summary, having a bad Euros DOES NOT make you a bad team.

Jesus Christ, you need that point beaten into your head.

kitakyushu

noodler wrote: »

In summary, having a bad Euros DOES NOT make you a bad team.

Jesus Christ, you need that point beaten into your head.

In summary, for the want of some better metric, how well a team actually does shall determine how good they are perceived as being.

I know that doesn't fit with your fantasy world where Ireland are a great team and anyone who draws with them are also good, but you should probably learn to deal with it nonetheless.

G.K.

dfx- wrote: »

Let's tone this down a few notches please.

I'd like to echo this. Please keep discussion civil.

noodler

kitakyushu wrote: »

In summary, for the want of some better metric, how well a team actually does shall determine how good they are perceived as being.

I know that doesn't fit with your fantasy world where Ireland are a great team and anyone who draws with them are also good, but you should probably learn to deal with it nonetheless.

I believe its against the forum charter to actually misrepresent somebody's posts so please don't refer to me again in that manner.

You have a vendetta against Trap, perhaps due to unrealistic expectations in the Euros that you haven't yet gotten over - who know?

Your constant simplification of matters when denegrating the team's achievements in the last four years point more to you having a chip on your shoulder rather than me being in "some fantasy world where Ireland are great".

Not agreeing with your silly, silly argument that:
"Our group was crap because Russia didn't get to the quarter-finals" or that "Armenia were crap"

doesn't make me some sort of blind optimist.

Sanity_Saviour

kitakyushu wrote: »

In summary, for the want of some better metric, how well a team actually does shall determine how good they are perceived as being.

I know that doesn't fit with your fantasy world where Ireland are a great team and anyone who draws with them are also good, but you should probably learn to deal with it nonetheless.

But in your own words, progressing from a weak group means nothing. So a good team who get a difficult draw and do not progress are not a good team after all? Holland didn't have a poor tournament, but are far from a poor team

No one said Ireland, Slovakia, Armenia were great teams. Your vendetta against Ireland prevents you from making any actual sense.

kitakyushu

noodler wrote: »

I believe its against the forum charter to actually misrepresent somebody's posts so please don't refer to me again in that manner.

You have a vendetta against Trap, perhaps due to unrealistic expectations in the Euros that you haven't yet gotten over - who know?

Your constant simplification of matters when denegrating the team's achievements in the last four years point more to you having a chip on your shoulder rather than me being in "some fantasy world where Ireland are great".

Not agreeing with your silly, silly argument that:
"Our group was crap because Russia didn't get to the quarter-finals" or that "Armenia were crap"

doesn't make me some sort of blind optimist.

If it's against the forum charter then I guess you're in a spot of bother with them after saying....

You have a vendetta against Trap

Ok, so demonstrate my "vendetta" against Trap or retract that and then just be quiet.

I've noticed you're a great one for accusing people of lying & misrepresenting your views but then rather ironically I've already seen you do exactly that multiple times to myself. Worse still when you're actually called on any of it you just conveniently ignore it or disappear from the thread entirely. Really pathetic stuff truth be told.

==

But regarding my "vendetta" I'll even give you a head start. Here's my most recent comment about Trap. http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=79536145&postcount=100

Oh yeah, I really went for the jugular there!

kitakyushu

Sanity_Saviour wrote: »

But in your own words, progressing from a weak group means nothing. So a good team who get a difficult draw and do not progress are not a good team after all? Holland didn't have a poor tournament, but are far from a poor team

No one said Ireland, Slovakia, Armenia were great teams. Your vendetta against Ireland prevents you from making any actual sense.

You post 5mins after the other fella and even use the word "vendetta".

Interesting (the coincidence is I mean, as opposed to anything you had to say).

Sanity_Saviour

kitakyushu wrote: »

You post 5mins after the other fella and even use the word "vendetta".

Interesting (the coincidence I mean as opposed to anything you have to say).

So you don't actually read the evidence dismantling your posts? Figures.

And I hadn't read his other post before posting, so I apologise to him, but you go ahead and make more ridiculous assumptions. You ignore all the blinding facts disproving whatever it is you're on about, and continue to make frankly confusing statements.

kitakyushu

Sanity_Saviour wrote: »

So you don't actually read the evidence dismantling your posts? Figures.

And I hadn't read his other post before posting, so I apologise to him, but you go ahead and make more ridiculous assumptions. You ignore all the blinding facts disproving whatever it is you're on about, and continue to make frankly confusing statements.

Do you not want to wait til your buddy replies back first so you can know what to type yourself?

Sanity_Saviour

kitakyushu wrote: »

Do you not want to wait til your buddy replies back first so you can know what to type yourself?

haha once again unable to actually reply with anything constructive.

Never find it interesting that no one actually seems to agree with your posts?

kitakyushu

Sanity_Saviour wrote: »

haha once again unable to actually reply with anything constructive.

Never find it interesting that no one actually seems to agree with your posts?

I'd say it's simply that most people are bored with this thread diversion (myself included) and aren't even reading any of this series of posts with any interest anyway.

How big is your 'Ireland are great' support group so far out of interest? I count .... 1..... 2. Well done ..... and on a thread specifically for Ireland fans too! Who'd have thunk it.

stealinhorses

Beating Sweden will not happen, ever.

Never mind tactics, bravery, luck and all these other things that are important on the day, Ireland's players simply don't stand up to Sweden's players.

Ibrahimovic is absolutely world class and Ireland simply don't have that sort of player to win games for them.

Ola Toivonen was the top scorer for PSV Eindhoven this season - Robbie Keane is playing out the rest of his career in Los Angeles.

Kim Källström is the playmaker for multiple French champions and Champions League regulars Olympique Lyonnais - Glen Whelan and Keith Andrews don't always start for Stoke and West Brom.

Sebastian Larsson can be a real danger, especially from set pieces which Ireland have proven they cannot defend at Euro 2012.

Johan Elmander sits on the bench for Sweden and would easily start for Ireland.

Sweden were very unlucky to lose to the hosts at the Euros and were defeated by England due to two freak goals, rather than being worse than England. They went into their last group game playing for nothing and comprehensively took care of what seemed to be certain group winners France.

I don't know much about Austria, but I'd expect them to give Ireland a good game and challenge them for third place in the group, with Germany and Sweden taking the top two spots by a margin of at least five points.

Boskowski

kitakyushu wrote: »

I remember our WC2002 campaign and thinking that was an insurmountable task.

You had a much much better squad then.

...

To be frank the frustration over Traps teams selection and tactics lead to a situation where reality went out the windows and almost unproven young fellas were being talked up beyond belief. Now I'm not saying these guys are no good especially Coleman and McClean, but they're not going to be what people expect them to be.
In a different context - discussing these players in your favorite teams thread - you would call them at most potential squad players who should probably go on loan to Leicester for a year or two first. Over in the Ireland thread then they're the new hope.
Ireland just seems to be going through a draught with regards to squad quality and there's going to be a few lean years ahead I fear, beginning with the WC qualifiers.
Germany is going to be impossible, Sweden very difficult and even Austria will be tough. Something needs to happen, at the very least 2 or 3 new guys will have to come through and prove to be at least proper useful players.

briany

SantryRed wrote: »

Are you serious?

We were absolutely murdered by some of the lesser teams in the past two qualifying phases and how we got out with wins is beyond comprehension. Games that spring to mind are:

Cyprus x2 (especially the home game where we were under enormous pressure and snuck out with a 1-0)

Montenegro (we didn't win either of these two games against them, both finishing 0-0)

Georgia at home (We were absolutely awful and if it wasn't for one of the most ridiculous penalty decisions given to us we would have lost 1-0, instead the peno shocked the Georgians and we scored again quickly after)

Georgia away ( We got lucky with the fact we had to play it in Mainz and it still wasn't convincing, I remember their keeper letting in a stinker)

Macedonia at home ( Dreadful display were we should have lost but managed to win 2-1)

Armenia at home (We got to play against ten men due to a ridiculous goalkeeper howler and then still we had the most idiotic own goal to put us 1-0 up, and even with ten men, we struggled and could have conceded before Dunne's goal to make it 2)

They weren't tactics. They were sheer luck.

In 12 games over lower seeded teams during the last two qualifiers Ireland won 10, drew 2 and lost 0. Ireland's tactics were basic and shown up against superior opposition but against the smaller teams, they had enough and those teams had not the tools to expose Ireland's game. If it were down to sheer luck, Ireland closing their eyes and somehow hoping for a win, then that return from 12 games would have to rank as a miracle. Luck was involved but it was not luck entirely.

gosplan

SantryRed wrote: »

We were absolutely murdered by some of the lesser teams in the past two qualifying phases and how we got out with wins is beyond comprehension.

We weren't murdered, we just ceded a lot of posession - there's a big big difference.

To look at the games you can't understand how we came out with wins ...

SantryRed wrote: »

Cyprus x2 (especially the home game where we were under enormous pressure and snuck out with a 1-0)

More shots on target in both games.

SantryRed wrote: »

Georgia at home (We were absolutely awful and if it wasn't for one of the most ridiculous penalty decisions given to us we would have lost 1-0, instead the peno shocked the Georgians and we scored again quickly after)

10 shots to 3 on target, and a good goal ruled out for us in the first half.

SantryRed wrote: »

Georgia away ( We got lucky with the fact we had to play it in Mainz and it still wasn't convincing, I remember their keeper letting in a stinker)

4 shots to 2 on target.

SantryRed wrote: »

Macedonia at home ( Dreadful display were we should have lost but managed to win 2-1)

The had more shots on target 5-7.

SantryRed wrote: »

Armenia at home (We got to play against ten men due to a ridiculous goalkeeper howler and then still we had the most idiotic own goal to put us 1-0 up, and even with ten men, we struggled and could have conceded before Dunne's goal to make it 2)

8 shots on target to 5.

SantryRed wrote: »

They weren't tactics. They were sheer luck.

Your hate has made you blind, you're talking nonsense.

We won those games because we generally restricted poorer teams to long shots and half chances while we still created our own chances, and created more of them.

Ferris_Bueller

SantryRed wrote: »

Are you serious?

We were absolutely murdered by some of the lesser teams in the past two qualifying phases and how we got out with wins is beyond comprehension. Games that spring to mind are:

Cyprus x2 (especially the home game where we were under enormous pressure and snuck out with a 1-0)

Montenegro (we didn't win either of these two games against them, both finishing 0-0)

Georgia at home (We were absolutely awful and if it wasn't for one of the most ridiculous penalty decisions given to us we would have lost 1-0, instead the peno shocked the Georgians and we scored again quickly after)

Georgia away ( We got lucky with the fact we had to play it in Mainz and it still wasn't convincing, I remember their keeper letting in a stinker)

Macedonia at home ( Dreadful display were we should have lost but managed to win 2-1)

Armenia at home (We got to play against ten men due to a ridiculous goalkeeper howler and then still we had the most idiotic own goal to put us 1-0 up, and even with ten men, we struggled and could have conceded before Dunne's goal to make it 2)

They weren't tactics. They were sheer luck.

Can't say I agree with this at all. To say we were lucky to finish second in both qualifying campaigns is ridiculous, as other posters have pointed out we didn't lose to any team lower than us, which is hardly luck to be fair. Our game plan obviously changed when we took the lead in the majority of games. In our game two games v Russia we were completely outplayed, but apart from that I cannot recall a game where I felt as if Ireland deserved to lose in either qualifying campaign. Luck was on our side on occasion, but the fact that we have twice now finished second is a sign it is not luck, we were the 2nd best team in the group on both occasions.

I cannot help but feel that if we finish 3rd in our WCQ2014 group that some people will say that they were correct all along, but realistically we are the 3rd best team in this group.

grenache

After how Ireland have played under Trap, i no longer care if we qualify or not. Watching that puke is enough to turn somebody off the boys in green for life. It's like watching $hit on a stick. As long as that dinosaur holds sway picking 3rd rate players while trying not to lose rather than actually win, i'll not support the team. Went to 2 games during qualifying. I'll not go again.


For the record Ireland will not qualify for Brazil. And Trap's unwillingness to change his ways and introduce enough new players will be the reason. I'll be supporting Italy as i have done for many years now. I appreciate football played in the right manner.

gosplan

grenache wrote: »

After how Ireland have played under Trap, i no longer care if we qualify or not. Watching that puke is enough to turn somebody off the boys in green for life. It's like watching $hit on a stick. As long as that dinosaur holds sway picking 3rd rate players while trying not to lose rather than actually win, i'll not support the team. Went to 2 games during qualifying. I'll not go again.


For the record Ireland will not qualify for Brazil. And Trap's unwillingness to change his ways and introduce enough new players will be the reason. I'll be supporting Italy as i have done for many years now. I appreciate football played in the right manner.

Fair enough really. People are entitled to prefer style and positivity over ground out results.

You are wrong however in saying Trap's unwillingness to change will prevent us from qualifying. More likely it'll turn out to be Sweden and Germany that do that.

noodler

stealinhorses wrote: »

Beating Sweden will not happen, ever.

Never mind tactics, bravery, luck and all these other things that are important on the day, Ireland's players simply don't stand up to Sweden's players.

Ibrahimovic is absolutely world class and Ireland simply don't have that sort of player to win games for them.

Ola Toivonen was the top scorer for PSV Eindhoven this season - Robbie Keane is playing out the rest of his career in Los Angeles.

Kim Källström is the playmaker for multiple French champions and Champions League regulars Olympique Lyonnais - Glen Whelan and Keith Andrews don't always start for Stoke and West Brom.

Sebastian Larsson can be a real danger, especially from set pieces which Ireland have proven they cannot defend at Euro 2012.

Johan Elmander sits on the bench for Sweden and would easily start for Ireland.

You are right to point all this out but if we compare the club standing of Bulgaria's first XI (when we played them) and Slovakia's first XI to our own then we also come out quite unfavourably.

Obviously, Sweden don't just have better players though, they are a much better unit and alot less likely to throwing in the towel like Slovakia did when they went 0-1 down to Armenia or Bulgaria did when they went behind in Nicosia.

Unearthly

kitakyushu wrote: »

I remember our WC2002 campaign and thinking that was an insurmountable task.
However in retrospect I shouldn't have. Prior to it we were literally seconds from winning our qualifying group and qualifying automatically for EC2000. We actually managed to beat good teams in doing so (rather than just playing for a draw in every match and winning occasionally by accident). Basically the clues were there that we'd make a good go of it against Holland and Portugal.

By comparison, this time around what have we done? Got hockeyed by Russia, Spain and Croatia and made Armenia and Slovakia look like world beaters..

So no chance of qualifying if we keep up this form and style of play (and I don't see any reason to believe it will be any different this time around). We'd be better off looking over our shoulders at Austria than plotting how to overcome Sweden.

Good post.

We were excellent between 1998 and 2002. Infact we were top seeds for euro 2004 qualifying cause of the results we got.

Not a chance we will get the standard of players and playing style we had then back again for the forseeable future imo.