Interesting letter from the Irish Times letters page

Temaz

Am I alone in sensing a sense of entitlement?!?!?!

Sir, – I write to you out of frustration and sadness. Like so many other Irish graduates, it appears that I am destined for the shores of some other land, rather than the place which I call home.

I did all the right things. Having studied Law at UCC, I graduated with a 2.1. Believing that this three-year degree might not suffice, I decided to complete a Masters degree in my chosen discipline. I am now left in the unfortunate position of not wanting to be either a solicitor or barrister. Rejection letters from past, alternative job applications have oft-stated my lack of “real-life” experience. My struggle is against the idea that one must now work for free in order to gain the experience necessary for meaningful employment.

Letters after your name, though they don’t come cheap, won’t earn you a living, it seems.

So, to my family and friends, who supported me through years of schooling and third-level education, it is with a heavy heart that I contemplate leaving. It feels like I have let you down. And to a Government that allowed my home, my country, exhaust itself of opportunities for young graduates such as myself – I have no problem in bidding you adieu. – Yours, etc,

AVRIL MCDOWELL,

Montenotte,

Cork.

tenandtracer

where is she from?

Cookie_Monster

Don't be upset, just do it already, see how much better anywhere else is.

Temaz

tenandtracer wrote: »

where is she from?

I hail from the same county:cool:

Red_Wake

It's a sad day when you read about a young girl like this having to leave the country and doesn't even include a pic of herself.

Jaxxy

Bye bye!

FatherLen

so what is the issue op? do you sympathize with this girl or are you claiming she has a undeserved sense of entitlement?

JohnMarston

FatherLen wrote: »

so what is the issue op? do you sympathize with this girl or are you claiming she has a undeserved sense of entitlement?

Read the first line before the article

And no, i dont think her expectations were unreasonable

nibtrix

She went to college for 3-5 years and now doesn't WANT to work in that discipline - and she's complaining that no-one else will hire her because she doesn't have any experience?!?

She's not willing to do an intership, instead assuming that because of her qualifications she will walk into a paying job in a completely different area.

:pac:

chin_grin

One sounds like one should get one.

Red_Wake

JohnMarston wrote: »

Read the first line before the article

And no, i dont think her expectations were unreasonable

I'd have a lot more sympathy if she wasn't intent on being a barrister/solicitor - closed professions if ever there were any.

noddyone2

Awww.

Temaz

nibtrix wrote: »

She went to college for 3-5 years and now doesn't WANT to work in that discipline - and she's complaining that no-one else will hire her because she doesn't have any experience?!?

She's not willing to do an intership, instead assuming that because of her qualifications she will walk into a paying job in a completely different area.

:pac:

NAIL HEAD

nibtrix

Red_Wake wrote: »

I'd have a lot more sympathy if she wasn't intent on being a barrister/solicitor - closed professions if ever there were any.

From the article - she doesn't want to be a solicitor or barrister - she wants to do something else but has no experience (and presumably no relevant qualifications).

FatherLen

JohnMarston wrote: »

Read the first line before the article

And no, i dont think her expectations were unreasonable

i read the entire post

if you had of read my post more carefully you would have noticed i used the word undeserved. my question was if the op felt this girl was undeserving of entitlement.

Morlar

She should understand that there is a long line of Irish people who have been forced, due to economic circumstances, to do the very same thing going back generation after generation. Unfortunately this country has always had other priorities. It's ironic that this country is so accomodating to non eu immigrants while simultaneously forcing our own to leave.

Merkin

Eh, I'm not sure what she expects exactly. She did a Law undergraduate degree, then a post-grad in a law-related discipline and then decides after depriving two students who may have their heart set on these courses of places on said courses that she is not interested in law after all. Then she is wondering why the various corporate entities and institutions she applied to aren't jumping up and down with enthusiasm that she joins them in a paid job simply because she chose to do a law degree she doesn't want. The mind boggles. Let's also hope her grammar is margianally better in her application letters than it is in the letter to the Times....

Pedant

Well from what I know, the law profession in Ireland is ten-a-penny at the moment. There are just too many law graduates and there aren't enough apprenticeship positions available. The only people who get in the door seem to be those who have family or other contacts in the business. It's not about what you know but who you know in the legal profession.

Saying that, a law degree is very good is you want to transfer over into the business world.

A friend of mine has a law degree from Trinity, as well as a masters, and got 580 in her Leaving Cert and she still hasn't been able to get an apprenticeship. She said she know people who just did the DIT conversion course with a primary degree in Arts and were able to get apprenticeship but it turned out their parents were solicitors so they had connections.

If you want to get into these professions and have no contacts, it wouldn't be a bad idea to join a political party just to get contacts or be involved in lots of societies ... joining the Freemasons wouldn't be a bad idea either.

Red_Wake

nibtrix wrote: »

From the article - she doesn't want to be a solicitor or barrister - she wants to do something else but has no experience (and presumably no relevant qualifications).

They should respect her qualifications mate.

They didn't come cheap y'know.:pac:

Dravokivich

I think what she is so over-eloquently trying to put across is that she can't get a job without previously having a job.

The jobs rejecting her could have been very low entry jobs. But with the way the unemployment is now, they know there are experienced people available in the same pool to fish from.

Would you rather her scrounge on the dole?

Jester252

I kinda like her little pop at the government. Its not like they help pay for the third level education that she now doesn't want

Penn

So she's complaining about not being able to get a job she doesn't want anyway?

opinion guy

Red_Wake wrote: »

I'd have a lot more sympathy if she wasn't intent on being a barrister/solicitor - closed professions if ever there were any.

Well how do you konw she is not from a poor background ? I've heard it said by fellow cynics that the reason solicitors and barristers have to work for almost nothing for their first few years is to keep out those who don't have family means.
Perhaps she is a victim of this ?

nibtrix wrote: »

She went to college for 3-5 years and now doesn't WANT to work in that discipline - and she's complaining that no-one else will hire her because she doesn't have any experience?!?

She's not willing to do an intership, instead assuming that because of her qualifications she will walk into a paying job in a completely different area.

:pac:

This whole internship thing has become a dark stain on the Irish nation. Imported from America by Fine Gael and Labour.
People doing and honest days work for large corporations should be getting paid, even if they are learning and even if its only minimum wage.
This unpaid internship lark is little more than coerced bondage.

Pedant

nibtrix wrote: »

She went to college for 3-5 years and now doesn't WANT to work in that discipline - and she's complaining that no-one else will hire her because she doesn't have any experience?!?

She's not willing to do an intership, instead assuming that because of her qualifications she will walk into a paying job in a completely different area.

:pac:

The thing is, you have do to an internship to become a solicitor/barrister - but they're extremely hard to come by. You don't just get hired as a solicitor/barrister. You have to pass the professional exams then an apprenticeship to qualify as a solicitor/barrister. If you can't find an apprenticeship, you're fucked. A law degree isn't good enough, in fact you don't even need a law degree to become a solicitor/barrister just a primary degree.

I think it's the case that the girl wasn't able to get an internship/apprenticeship position and now is considering changing to do something else. Unfortunately this is a position many law graduates have to face.

Temaz

opinion guy wrote: »

Well how do you konw she is not from a poor background ?

Montenotte is a very affluent area in Cork, I doubt she's on the breadline.

Red_Wake

opinion guy wrote: »

Well how do you konw she is not from a poor background ? I've heard it said by fellow cynics that the reason solicitors and barristers have to work for almost nothing for their first few years is to keep out those who don't have family means.
Perhaps she is a victim of this ?

Montenotte's a posh area in Cork.

She doesn't cite financial issues, so I'd assume there are none.

I'd say she's Alison O' Riordan part deux, tbh.

smash

Pedant wrote: »

I think it's the case that the girl wasn't able to get an internship/apprenticeship position and now is considering changing to do something else. Unfortunately this is a position many law graduates have to face.

That's all well and good, but she doesn't have to move out of the country to change her career path. With qualifications like that she'd get a job no problem in the business end of a large multinational like google etc.

HoggyRS

It's hard to feel bad for law students when they are such absolute benders in college.

El Tarangu

Temaz wrote: »

Am I alone in sensing a sense of entitlement?!?!?!

Nope, I thought the same thing myself.

Pedant

smash wrote: »

That's all well and good, but she doesn't have to move out of the country to change her career path. With qualifications like that she'd get a job no problem in the business end of a large multinational like google etc.

Maybe she can't find a job here in Ireland. Maybe jobs are so scarce that HR are allowed to be very picky with their applicants and choose only people with business backgrounds.

smash

Pedant wrote: »

Maybe she can't find a job here in Ireland. Maybe jobs are so scarce that HR are allowed to be very picky with their applicants and choose only people with business backgrounds.

I doubt it. I'd say the sense of entitlement is getting in the way again... "Oh I'm too good for that job" kind of attitude.

Pedant

Red_Wake wrote: »

Montenotte's a posh area in Cork.

She doesn't cite financial issues, so I'd assume there are none.

I'd say she's Alison O' Riordan part deux, tbh.

It sickening people comparing her to Alison O'Riordan.

The girl probably worked her ass off in college, meanwhile there are little spoiled kids, like O'Riordan, who can walk into a job with any half-ass degree behind them simply because their daddy has connections. If this girl was anything along the same lines as O'Riordan, she'd probably be in employment by now.

AeoNGriM

Agree with the sentiment in the thread, studied for a particular field, do not want, expect free jobs in different field?

Tits or GTFO tbh

FinnLizzy

Morlar wrote: »

She should understand that there is a long line of Irish people who have been forced, due to economic circumstances, to do the very same thing going back generation after generation. Unfortunately this country has always had other priorities. It's ironic that this country is so accomodating to non eu immigrants while simultaneously forcing our own to leave.

Non-EU citizens are usually happy to take any job that comes to them here. Irish people just have higher expectations, and usually want to find skilled work.

Pedant

smash wrote: »

I doubt it. I'd say the sense of entitlement is getting in the way again... "Oh I'm too good for that job" kind of attitude.

How do you know she's not able to get a job here in business in Ireland? Maybe she wants to follow her dream of being a lawyer first and want to move abroad to fulfill that dream. If that doesn't work out then she can come back and do something in business. I don't think it's a sense of entitlement, rather I think it's ambition and there's nothing wrong with that.

smash

Pedant wrote: »

How do you know she's not able to get a job here in business in Ireland? Maybe she wants to follow her dream of being a lawyer first and want to move abroad to fulfill that dream.

Nope: "I am now left in the unfortunate position of not wanting to be either a solicitor or barrister."

Pedant

smash wrote: »

Nope: "I am now left in the unfortunate position of not wanting to be either a solicitor or barrister."

She doesn't want to because it's hard to get an apprenticeship in the industry. If you can't find work in it, then you move onto something else. She has no choice in the matter. Maybe "want" is a wrong word to use, but I know of many many law graduates who are in the same position. They dreamed of becoming a lawyer and then when the real world comes upon them, then see how difficult it is to get apprenticeships (even unpaid ones). It's about who you know, not what you know. I'm led to believe that she, like a lot of law graduates, don't have a choice in the matter. It's either emigrate and take the necessary steps towards qualifying abroad or stay here and move into something else other than law, that's if they aren't able to get an apprenticeship here first (which is extremely hard).

Jester252

Pedant wrote: »

She doesn't want to because it's hard to get a job in the industry. If you can't find work in it, then you move onto something else. She has no choice in the matter. Maybe "want" is a wrong word to use, but I know of many many law graduates who are in the same position. They dreamed of becoming a lawyer and then when the real world comes upon them, then see how difficult it is to get apprenticeships (even unpaid ones). It's about who you know, not what you know.

But in the letter she says that she doesn't what a job in the field that she studied. She is complain because she can't get a job in another field with her degree. She also states she is fighting the idea of starting from the bottom. She believes that has this degree entitles her to a top level job in another field. If that is not a sense of entitlement I don't know what passes for one in Ireland

mackg

Pedant wrote: »

She doesn't want to because it's hard to get a job in the industry. If you can't find work in it, then you move onto something else. She has no choice in the matter. Maybe "want" is a wrong word to use, but I know of many many law graduates who are in the same position. They dreamed of becoming a lawyer and then when the real world comes upon them, then see how difficult it is to get apprenticeships (even unpaid ones). It's about who you know, not what you know. I'm led to believe that she, like a lot of law graduates, don't have a choice in the matter.

From the OP

I am now left in the unfortunate position of not wanting to be either a solicitor or barrister.Rejection letters from past, alternative job applications have oft-stated my lack of “real-life” experience.

Her applications were not for work in the law field.

smash

Pedant wrote: »

She doesn't want to because it's hard to get a job in the industry. If you can't find work in it, then you move onto something else. She has no choice in the matter. Maybe "want" is a wrong word to use, but I know of many many law graduates who are in the same position. They dreamed of becoming a lawyer and then when the real world comes upon them, then see how difficult it is to get apprenticeships (even unpaid ones). It's about who you know, not what you know. I'm led to believe that she, like a lot of law graduates, don't have a choice in the matter. It's either go abroad and take the necessary steps towards qualifying abroad or stay here and move into something else other than law, that's if aren't able to get an apprenticeship.

Yet she hasn't mentioned the possibility of changing her career path. So it sounds like she hasn't even bothered looking into it.

thebaz

its hard to feal any sympathy for her cause - yeah, sense of entitlement oozes out - surprised IT published it, bit of the spoilt child

mitosis

I had a look on Facebook. She seems lonely - maybe the real reason she's leaving...........

Pedant

Jester252 wrote: »

But in the letter she says that she doesn't what a job in the field that she studied. She is complain because she can't get a job in another field with her degree. She also states she is fighting the idea of starting from the bottom. She believes that has this degree entitles her to a top level job in another field. If that is not a sense of entitlement I don't know what passes for one in Ireland

mackg wrote: »

From the OP



Her applications were not for work in the law field.

I know it's mere speculation but I'm led believe she doesn't want to become a lawyer because it's too difficult to get an apprenticeship. I'm sure further elaboration will indicate this and her decision wasn't just taken on a whim. The phrase "unfortunate position" and the fact that she thought it necessary to pursue a masters degree in her chosen field (presumably law) indicates to me that she initially wanted to do it but had no choice but to change direction to pursue something else.

opinion guy

Red_Wake wrote: »

Montenotte's a posh area in Cork.

She doesn't cite financial issues, so I'd assume there are none.

I'd say she's Alison O' Riordan part deux, tbh.

Aha. Clearly I'm not familiar with the socioeconomic layout of the peoples republic.:D

Lol was waiting for the Alison O Riordain comparison.

Pedant wrote: »

It sickening people comparing her to Alison O'Riordan.

The girl probably worked her ass off in college, meanwhile there are little spoiled kids, like O'Riordan, who can walk into a job with any half-ass degree behind them simply because their daddy has connections. If this girl was anything along the same lines as O'Riordan, she'd probably be in employment by now.

Jesus lighten up.

Show Time

She is no loss to Cork.

mackg

Show Time wrote: »

She is no loss to Cork.

Let's not go making rash statements before we find out if she's hot! :pac:

westendgirlie

Bloody Hell give the poor girl a break!

Absolutely nothing wrong with having ambition. She has obviously studied hard to get her law degree and was probably looking forward to the next step - Work Experience.

How many of you have been knocked back for a job before? Makes you feel like sh1t, even for a few seconds. So if this girl has put pen to paper to vent, just let her.

Pedant

westendgirlie wrote: »

Bloody Hell give the poor girl a break!

Absolutely nothing wrong with having ambition. She has obviously studied hard to get her law degree and was probably looking forward to the next step - Work Experience.

How many of you have been knocked back for a job before? Makes you feel like sh1t, even for a few seconds. So if this girl has put pen to paper to vent, just let her.

Exactly, I'm sick of the inferiority complex some people have. If you worked hard in school and in college and get the qualifications I think you should at least expect a little more than someone who decided not to give a toss about education and leave school early. I mean working hard all those years and then throwing it away from something far less is a terrible waste. Is it too much to have to ambition to get on in life and pursue your dreams if you're willing to work for it?

Temaz

westendgirlie wrote: »

Bloody Hell give the poor girl a break!

Absolutely nothing wrong with having ambition. She has obviously studied hard to get her law degree and was probably looking forward to the next step - Work Experience.
.

I am now left in the unfortunate position of not wanting to be either a solicitor or barrister.

From her letter.

Pedant

Temaz wrote: »

From her letter.

And what does that have to do with her studying hard or not?

starlit

The government, employment and education system here in Ireland has let her down on that front. Its unfortunate she has had to emigrate else where as well as having completed an excellent course and achieved excellent qualifications that she is left to have to look for jobs else where.