cutting whitethorn saplings

cj maxx

hi all . im wondering if i can taks cuttings of whitethorn to replant for hedges. what size should they be ? , when to plant and whats the method for planting.
guessing it will be after sept before i can plant ?? any help , opinions would be great
thanks

Canis_Lupus

I wouldn't bother with cuttings, they are very difficult to take without the necessary horticultural experience and technique. Your best bet is to get them from a commercial nursery like Future Forests in Cork or None So Hardy nurseries. They are usually only about a euro per plant. Get them as small as you can, plant them in the winter and keep them free of competing vegetation for the first couple of years. Oh and protect them from browsing animals. Plant them at 6 to 12 inch spacings.

cj maxx

thanks for replying CL . what would be the technique for taking cuttings?. they sound cheap at 1euro a pop but i will need thousands probably over the next few years as its farmland not a garden area and need to be as money consious as possible . its not an option to spend a few hundred here and there on plants . i just cant:(
i thought by taking cuttings i could use the over grown hedges to some advantage .

Tora Bora

cjmc wrote: »

thanks for replying CL . what would be the technique for taking cuttings?. they sound cheap at 1euro a pop but i will need thousands probably over the next few years as its farmland not a garden area and need to be as money consious as possible . its not an option to spend a few hundred here and there on plants . i just cant:(
i thought by taking cuttings i could use the over grown hedges to some advantage .

It's possible, but only just:(
The best method, is to take the cuttings in spring, when the tree is in bud, but BEFORE, the onset of new green leaves!!!
Take plenty such cuttings. Place in a bed of sand and compost. Make sure to water every day, for several weeks, and regularly thereafter.
Come folloing winter, dig out and find those which have sprung roots. Transplant in the usual way, and dump the remainder!

Oldtree

Any cuttings could be dipped in rooting hormone liquid/powder to promote root growth. Sharp scatures! pencil thickness cuttings if possible.

Have a look here at the RHS advice on hardwood cuttings.

http://apps.rhs.org.uk/advicesearch/Profile.aspx?pid=387

btw hawthorn is very easy to grow from seed.

Canis_Lupus wrote: »

Get them as small as you can

I usually get the bigger plants with larger root systems usually called 90-120's (about a meter in height). That way I can prune back about a third off the plant, and maby a bit off the roots leaving a large reserve in the roots. This gets them to bush out. Some people would argue to cutting off even more, down to 30-40cm. Competition from weeds isnt a problem then and these plants take off.

The following winter it is crucial to push/stomp down any grass that may be leaning on the plants before the snow falls, as the weight of the snow on the grass on the plants can break the stems.

Following years it is important to keep trimming the plants back by about half of the years growth to eventually get a hedge.

tabby aspreme

Bought some whitethorn from None so Hardy a few months ago for 35 euro / 100 which is the average price for them

cj maxx

thanks for all the info everyone .
it is not as easy as i hoped but neccessity is a good teacher as they say so........
one thing , above someone ( sorry your names gone:o)mentioned cutting in the springbefore growth while a link mentioned cutting in mid autumn (hardwood slips). do i have to wait till next spring or could i take cuttings in sept-oct

Canis_Lupus

I've been doing my thesis on propagating hawthorn from cuttings. I can tell you that studies recommend taking softwood cuttings from new spring growth, putting them under a misting unit in a glasshouse. Rooting success is normally low, about 50% or so. Propagation from seed is more efficient and successful and as a result the horticulture industry does not propagate from cuttings.

Based on the price of 35c a plant from None So Hardy, I would strongly recommend buying from a nursery. You would be guaranteed quality plants. With cuttings you would spend the money alone on equipment not to mention the time involved for taking 1000 cuttings. Trust me, I've only taken <100 so far and it takes alot of work!

Plant them in February or thereabouts, plant them very well and keep the plants clean until established and you will have a great hedge.

Oldtree

Clearly buying established plants is the way to go but as the op wants to save a few bob then even with limited success (this isnt a commercial venture) even 25% of 2000 cuttings surviving is 500 plants that dont have to be paid for. add to that plants from seed and the op can make some savings without much effort.

Future forests did 2 foot bareroot plants at 75c each if 100 bought, probably less on 1,000's, phone them for a price.

http://www.futureforests.net/br_hedging.htm

Any suitable hawthorn cuttings made from trimming back the plants that i plant for customers, I stick into the ground as I go, some of them strike, pot luck I guess from the above dismal figures .

I would love to read your thesis when its done, sounds very interesting.

I would also take care to check the provenance of the plants when buying. Coillte used to supply to the open market but now only supply to the commercial market.

My local garden center ordered plants from SAP and the quality has been very good.

http://www.sapgroup.com/?page_id=15

Canis_Lupus

Its good that you mention provenance, that is definitely an issue.

I only know this regarding British practices, but over there it is common for hawthorn to be from Hungary and Romania. Its been proven inferior in terms of wind and disease resistance, stock proofness and wildlife benefits. So if buying from a nursery, the OP should enquire as to the provenance.

The thesis is on the backburner due to work commitments but there is plenty of literature I can point you in the direction of if youre interested.

Farmer Pudsey

If you are not using for aeos or reps I would buy the good strong whips which are 3-4 feet, plant a bit further apart than normal. Cut them back to 8-10'' use the cuttings ( as these will be fresh cutting) to propogate more. In year two the plants will have grown to 3-4' again now start laying this hedge by bending and slightly breaking the new strong shoots and repeat the following year ( if it is well formed use a hedge clippers) after that it should be well formed at the base.

If you try to propogate it will take you 3 years before you have plants that are strong enought to compete with weeds the 3-4' whips can be put in with a spade on ground sprayed with gysophate as opposed to tilling spraying with small whips. Plant between December and March1 in case of a dry spring. 1000 3-4' whips are worth twice that of small 1' whips at least and if you are willing to lay it at year 2 and 3 they are better than three times the amount. If you buying 1000 plants at the time you will get them for less than 35 cent each remember to put in a bit of hazel every now and then and a few trees as well ( nothing wrong with a bit of firewood for the grandkids).

PatQfarmer

Oldtree wrote: »

My local garden center ordered plants from SAP and the quality has been very good.

http://www.sapgroup.com/?page_id=15

I buy all trees, hedging etc from Sap. Excellent nursery, great quality stock. Competitive pricing and nice to deal with. Also within 25kms of me, which is a help:)

cj maxx

wow . thanks for all the feed back . alot of work ahead but made easier when ive a slight idea of what to do
what do you mean by proveance ,is it where the come from , breed ?
the larger plants might be more suitable as im swamped with dang rabbits
im not in reps so i can play about with the spacing
i read somewhere not to plant on old hedges ??is this true?
havn;t had time to click on the above links but thanks again for all the help

Farmer Pudsey

cjmc wrote: »

wow . thanks for all the feed back . alot of work ahead but made easier when ive a slight idea of what to do
what do you mean by proveance ,is it where the come from , breed ?
the larger plants might be more suitable as im swamped with dang rabbits
im not in reps so i can play about with the spacing
i read somewhere not to plant on old hedges ??is this true?
havn;t had time to click on the above links but thanks again for all the help

Proveance is where the whips/bare root plants have been grown, alot os nursery's import the whips and there may be grown from seed native to these countries. The law of natural selection will have come into play and whitethorn that has developed in Holland or Romania over hundreds of years may not have the right atributes for Ireland so make sure the plants are raised from native stock.

What do you mean by planting a old hedge? it may mean not to take cuttings from old plants or not to try to get small plants from an old hedge as these are often suckers from the root of an existing root so it is taking it food from the old root and when you dig it out it will not survive. Where as young whips the cutting are young ie the plant will have grown all its growth in one year so it will be more vigorous and the plant itself will be feed by its own root.

Qualitymark

Local is better because local plants are acclimatised to local conditions, and so will be stronger and healthier.

Some plants prefer to grow from cuttings (rugosa roses, rosemary, for instance), others grow better from seed (hawthorn).

Here's a video from the BBC on growing hawthorn from seed; you'll find loads of berries on your local hawthorns and can get ***freeee*** hedging from them:

http://www.gardenersworld.com/how-to/projects/creative-projects/how-to-grow-hawthorn-from-seed/144.html

Here's another nice video, on how to 'lay' or 'pleach' a hedge to make it strong and impermeable:

http://www.woodlands.co.uk/blog/practical-guides/how-to-lay-a-hedge/

and a PDF on how to plant a laid hedge:

http://www.hedgelaying.org.uk/planting.pdf

Have you thought of adding some fruiting plants, like damson (on dwarfing stock) into your hedge?

Good luck with this, it sounds like a fabulous project.

Silvics

What sort of prices are SAP trees? Nothing in the brochure.

Qualitymark

Silvics wrote: »

What sort of prices are SAP trees? Nothing in the brochure.

SAP? What brochure?

Silvics

Earlier post by Oldtree inc. link

Qualitymark

Oh, Future Forests? Best thing is to ring them, they're not really very internetty. Straight dealers, though, I've bought from them before.

Silvics

Qualitymark wrote: »

Oh, Future Forests? Best thing is to ring them, they're not really very internetty. Straight dealers, though, I've bought from them before.

Interested in SAP-usually buy my stuff from Netherlands-curious as to how SAP compares.

Qualitymark

Asked advice and this is what I got (on growing hawthorn from seed):

If you want to grow from seed, if you are in a rush you can rub berries over rough stone to remove a lot of the flesh, then wash until most flesh has gone, then put in freezer for a day or so (depending on temperature) then sow them in a sandy compost mix, and you should have germination in a few days or weeks.