Unskilled Permanent Residents in Australia

Pisco Sour

Just something I am trying to get my head around. Obviously there are quite a few people on WHV’s who are in their mid 20s, have strong education, good work experience and skills who will not get sponsored to stay in Australia. That’s just the way things go and a fact of life. However what I can’t quite understand is that there are so many Indians here working in call centres on long term visas, which is not exactly skilled work. There are loads of people from the Philippines and Sri Lanka for example here working low skilled jobs. I have no problem at all with this, and I like the multicultural nature of Australia. But somebody please explain how these people manage to get PR in Australia in the first place? Does the Australian Government have different rules for people from poorer nations with regards migration or something? Just can’t get my head around it.

Zambia

They probably all have PR via the aus student route. The truth is on paper they are high skilled but in essence they have huge debts and need to work. It's also harder for them to find work outside those industry's.

mandrake04

Good possibility that they are

a) unskilled dependents of Skilled migrants.
b) They are skilled migrants but have not found employment in their field.

It's the same rules for everybody.

catbear

I'd be in that group, sponsored through wifes job but no real qualifications myself. I've had my holiday and now I need to find work, I'll be starting at the bottom! You never know, I might make good contacts for a job in India some day:rolleyes:

markymark21

From talking to the Nepalese and Indians in work apparently if you pay for a student visa, go to college for a few years when you're done its quite easy to attain a permanent visa after.

It could be similar to the situation at home where a Chinese 'student' will stay on a student visa for years either by deferring a couple of times or by paying of their head of school. I doubt it would be as easy to bribe in an Aussie college/university but I still think the college route is the way the Asians are doing it

Pisco Sour

markymark21 wrote: »

From talking to the Nepalese and Indians in work apparently if you pay for a student visa, go to college for a few years when you're done its quite easy to attain a permanent visa after.

It could be similar to the situation at home where a Chinese 'student' will stay on a student visa for years either by deferring a couple of times or by paying of their head of school. I doubt it would be as easy to bribe in an Aussie college/university but I still think the college route is the way the Asians are doing it

Would that not cost a fortune though? And for somebody coming from India or Nepal to pay for a 4 year degree course in a university in Australia would be astronomical.

There is definitely something going on though. There are simply far too many Asians working unskilled jobs for it to be merely because they cant get work in their field or that they are a dependent of somebody else. In one of my previous jobs here I worked with a guy from Sri Lanka who was in his 40s, and up until a few years ago he used to work in a factory here doing very unskilled work. Makes you wonder how he got into the country. He's single also so couldn't be a dependent.

hussey

A couple of years ago you just needed an uni course in Aus as your way to a PR visa. They closed this loophole a few years ago, as they realised none of the students were getting a job, now i thi k you need to be on the approved course list and some fields need a job before PR is granted.
And yes, the costs are huge, hence a lot of them working two jobs just to pay it off. But to them a life in Australia is priceless.

I'm sure thousands are illegal, defacto, family visa etc, but if you ask a 1am shift worker in 7-11 about their visa I'm sure they won't tell you!

mel.b

I think i remember reading people could do tafe courses such as hairdressing and cooking on student visas and then apply for PR. Also i know a number of 'colleges' in Melbourne were shut down a yr or two ago as they were basically a front for getting PR. I'll see if i can fInd the links

mel.b

Heres some excerts from a transcript of a program on the abc

Hagar Cohen: Cooking and hairdressing courses, which earn 60 points, are in great demand by students from overseas because they are considered easy, and relatively cheap. After graduation and a certain amount of employment, the student can more easily be granted PR, Permanent Residency. Dr Bob Birrell.

Bob Birrell: The number of commencements in the hospitality area, which is mainly cooking and hairdressing, has jumped from about 10,000 in 2005 to just over 30,000 in 2007. This means that by the end of this year, we'll have the order of 15,000 cooks and hairdressers seeking permanent residence. Now that is ridiculous, because it means that large numbers of them are not going to end up as cooks or hairdressers anyway, partly because they won't have the skills necessary to get employment, and in some cases they never intended to be cooks or hairdressers anyway. So this outcome is making something of a monkey out of the immigration system.

Hagar Cohen: Are you saying that at the heart of it, those cooking and hairdressing diplomas are almost becoming migration pathways?

Bob Birrell: I don't think there's any doubt about that.

Hagar Cohen: But even though numbers of international students doing cooking and hairdressing are growing at an astonishing rate, the skills shortage in these industries is chronic. There's a Hairdressing Council, recently formed by those who are concerned about how this new trend is affecting standards in hairdressing salons. Industry spokeswoman, Ruth Browne.

In a Melbourne taxi, Background Briefing got into conversation with a Pakistani taxi driver who revealed that he's been studying printing and graphic arts, but has not had any work experience. Instead, he will just pay money, a large amount as you'll hear, for a certificate.

Taxi driver: Most of the students, they look around for a job but it's impossible for them to get jobs, so the other way only is to spend money, or to find a person who takes money from them, like $7,000 to $8,000 and give them an experience.

Hagar Cohen: So what are you going to do? Are you going to do that too?

Taxi driver: Yes, for permanent residency, it's not big money. So it's not easy to get 900 hours experience for example, if you apply for a job. There are a lot of students, there are a lot of people who are waiting for the response from different organisations, but no-one replies. So for this purpose they look around; if they are ready to pay money if someone gives them experience, in any condition, if the owner is ready to give you a job, and if he takes $4,000, if he demands $5,000, $6,000, students are even ready to pay that amount also.

Hagar Cohen: While that cab driver was from Pakistan, Sam is from India. We met in a local café.
Sam is not his real name; he works in retail during the day and drives the taxi at night. He has an interesting story to tell about his girlfriend, who is studying hairdressing.

Sam: Her college told her that you 'pay me a certain amount of money, come to our college, and you can get experience from our college.' So they actually tell the students that 'give me money and we'll give you experience'.

Hagar Cohen: Is your girlfriend going to pay that money?

Sam: Because she doesn't have another choice; what can she do?

Hagar Cohen: Why does she not have another choice?

Sam: Because if you don't pay money, then the college will do something wrong in her papers, try to fail her, you know because the college has every authority in terms of students. So they can actually fail the student also. So at the end if you have a fight between you and the college, you'll always lose, so it's better to give the money.

Hagar Cohen: Sam says that many international students like him and his girlfriend have no intention to work as chefs or hairdressers once they get permanent residency, commonly called the PR. They were lured into these courses because, so the migration agents told them, there is a high likelihood that at the end, they can stay here permanently.

Before coming to Australia, Sam went to an educational expo in Mumbai. He says educational reps convince students to enrol by beefing up the opportunity to become permanent residents.

Sam: Ah yes, because they were emphasising on this topic, telling us that two years study was easy going on, and after two years we get permanent residency. But they didn't tell you that what kind of work we do in the college, we'll go to the kitchen or you will work for certain cuisines, they only really emphasis on permanent residency.

Hagar Cohen: In India, you studied IT, a Bachelor's degree in IT. Why did you come here to do cookery? It's not very much related to IT.

Sam: Yes, because I asked this question to that college stall, that college expo there. They told me that cookery is easy method to get permanent residency, and you don't have to study, so they actually changed my mind off IT to cookery.

Hagar Cohen: What do you want to do after you get your permanent residence?

Sam: I want to do something in hotels, but in front desk, not in kitchen, because kitchen environment is not good.

http://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/backgroundbriefing/paying-to-be-permanent/3199262

mandrake04

UK used to be the top supplier of migrants but got knocked off by China in 2011, both China and India are up there. They have huge populations of 1b+ so have a huge pool of applicants who meet the criteria so you expect that.

Pisco Sour

mandrake04 wrote: »

UK used to be the top supplier of migrants but got knocked off by China in 2011, both China and India are up there. They have huge populations of 1b+ so have a huge pool of applicants who meet the criteria so you expect that.

I'm not sure working in call centres fits the criteria to be honest. I'd imagine that most Indians here are certainly not on 457s or other similar visas.

markymark21

Pisco Sour wrote: »

Would that not cost a fortune though? And for somebody coming from India or Nepal to pay for a 4 year degree course in a university in Australia would be astronomical.

Yeh I dunno, maybe it doesn't have to be university.. Not too sure. But the lads I was talking too did say the whole process was costing them thousands. But if they weren't in Oz they'd probably be in Napal herding goats so Its worth it for them!

Mellor

Where was 457 mentioned?
People on 457s aren't counted migrants

Pisco Sour

Mellor wrote: »

Where was 457 mentioned?
People on 457s aren't counted migrants

Very true.

The whole thing just seems strange though. For an Irish person to migrate to Australia one has to have a specific skill needed, while there are tens of thousands of Asians here on PR yet working in call centres and 7Eleven or other unskilled jobs, many of whom do not look like they are of the age that they are in college. How many Irish or English do you see here on PR doing those type of jobs? Something seems weird. Maybe there are loopholes as mentioned, and perhaps such loopholes are there for people from Europe aswell but due to geographical distance perhaps Europeans don't pursue this avenue.

I've wondered this for quite awhile now, but have never asked the question as in this super-sensitive PC world we live in everything comes across as racist these days. :rolleyes:

Mellor

I just think you are over looking that they could be born here to migrants

fasttalkerchat

mandrake04 wrote: »

b) They are skilled migrants but have not found employment in their field.

If I'm qualified to be a project manager (on skills list) can I get residency and work another job? (another area of management)

Pisco Sour

Mellor wrote: »

I just think you are over looking that they could be born here to migrants

I'm perfectly well capable of telling the difference between an Australian and an Indian accent.

Mellor

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

If I'm qualified to be a project manager (on skills list) can I get residency and work another job? (another area of management)

Yes. The skill/qualification is a route to a PR visa. But there is no requirement to work in any particular role, or to work at all. You could get PR and spend your days at the beach be an wealthy elderly ladys toy boy if you wish.

Pisco Sour wrote: »

I'm perfectly well capable of telling the difference between an Australian and an Indian accent.

You think every person born in Australia naturally has an australian accent?

Then there is also children who accompany skilled migrants. Prob not a huge part of the population, but would fit exactly as you describe.

Pisco Sour

Mellor wrote: »

You think every person born in Australia naturally has an australian accent?

Maybe I'm wrong, but surely it is reasonable to guess that an Indian/Sri Lankan/Philipino with a very strong Indian/Sri Lankan/Philipino accent is not born and raised in Australia. I've met plenty of Australians who have decended from various Asian countries and their accents are very much Australian. You can tell the difference (usually) between somebody who has been brought up here and somebody who has migrated here in their 20s.

Again, maybe I am wrong, but just the way I see it. Certainly some people you encounter here does make you wonder how they got into the country. 30 something Indian with a thick Indian accent, working in a 7Eleven. It's a bit questionable. It's highly unlikely such a person has arrived here through skilled migration.

Just appears to me from afar that things seem to be different for different countries but again I could be way off. Just an observation of mine.

Mellor

I know a few people of various descent (european and asian) who were born here but have accents. More noticeable when speaking to others from the same area, on phone etc. But we're straying from the topic.

The rules are the same for all countries. You are wrong in that observation. The easy option appears to be the onshore PR visa for people that haven't complete a australian study. These are much easier to get for obvious reasons. They are just as available to people from Ireland, but in reality there are very few irish coming to australia to study - which is probably why it appears that Indian/Chinese/Filipino youths are getting the easier ride.

Pisco Sour

Mellor wrote: »

I know a few people of various descent (european and asian) who were born here but have accents. More noticeable when speaking to others from the same area, on phone etc. But we're straying from the topic.

The rules are the same for all countries. You are wrong in that observation. The easy option appears to be the onshore PR visa for people that haven't complete a australian study. These are much easier to get for obvious reasons. They are just as available to people from Ireland, but in reality there are very few irish coming to australia to study - which is probably why it appears that Indian/Chinese/Filipino youths are getting the easier ride.

That would probably explain things I guess. Bit of a loophole.

ArseBurger

Pisco Sour wrote: »

That would probably explain things I guess. Bit of a loophole.

How is it a loophole? It's the rule.

Similar rules apply in EU countries for students.

It's actually more difficult to get permanent residency in Ireland, for example, if you are from outside the EU.

hussey

ArseBurger wrote: »

Pisco Sour wrote: »

That would probably explain things I guess. Bit of a loophole.

How is it a loophole? It's the rule.

Similar rules apply in EU countries for students.

It's actually more difficult to get permanent residency in Ireland, for example, if you are from outside the EU.

Well it was a loophole/rule. But that has changed now, and is much harder to get PR via a course now, espicially the chef/hairdresser type courses.

Irish people could have done this too a few years ago. But at the time there was no need

mandrake04

Pisco Sour wrote: »

I'm not sure working in call centres fits the criteria to be honest. I'd imagine that most Indians here are certainly not on 457s or other similar visas.

Well I wouldn't imagine call centre work would meet the criteria, but the beauty of being an unrestricted PR is that you don't have work at a skilled occupation if you don't want to. You can work at what ever you want, even start your own business if you wish. You could migrate as Doctor and become a golf pro if you really wanted to.

Similarly it might also be the case that many of these Indians meet the requirements for PR and have been granted a visa but having a heavy accent might put employers off, working in a call centre would definitely improve their communication skills. Same with Taxi driving and 7-11 a lot of migrants from the sub-continent use these occupations to build up 'local experience' or 'Australian experience'.

It certainly is an interesting debate, but I somehow get the feeling you are questioning how come those from countries like India and Philippines can get Permanent residency, and how come Irish or English people on WHV are not granted PR or sponsored if not automatically then more easily.

I do sense a tad of resentfulness.

mandrake04

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

If I'm qualified to be a project manager (on skills list) can I get residency and work another job? (another area of management)

If you have no conditions on a Permanent Residency visa you can work at what ever you want, you don't even have to work at all if you can afford it.

Pisco Sour

mandrake04 wrote: »

Well I wouldn't imagine call centre work would meet the criteria, but the beauty of being an unrestricted PR is that you don't have work at a skilled occupation if you don't want to. You can work at what ever you want, even start your own business if you wish. You could migrate as Doctor and become a golf pro if you really wanted to.

Similarly it might also be the case that many of these Indians meet the requirements for PR and have been granted a visa but having a heavy accent might put employers off, working in a call centre would definitely improve their communication skills. Same with Taxi driving and 7-11 a lot of migrants from the sub-continent use these occupations to build up 'local experience' or 'Australian experience'.

It certainly is an interesting debate, but I somehow get the feeling you are questioning how come those from countries like India and Philippines can get Permanent residency, and how come Irish or English people on WHV are not granted PR or sponsored if not automatically then more easily.

I do sense a tad of resentfulness.

Probably comes across a bit resentful. Not the intention. Just looking to get an understanding of how this worked is all. I just couldn't understand how so many Asians were living here permanently, yet doing jobs that not even WHV holders would even do (7Eleven). But now this confusion has been cleared up.