Beginner Question

AncientW

Hello.
Is it legal to own/buy a semi-automatic rifle (e.g AR-15)? Sorry if this question was asked previously, I'm just too busy to search around, thank you.

-Daniel.

Witcher

It would be classed as a restricted firearm, if you can show a good reason for having that particular type of firearm you can get a licence for it.

AncientW

Thank you for the reply!! What would they consider as a good reason? Maybe home defense/target shooting? I just want to get one, I've been wanting to get one since I was a child.
Thanks again for the reply.

Witcher

AncientW wrote: »

Thank you for the reply!! What would they consider as a good reason? Maybe home defense/target shooting? I just want to get one, I've been wanting to get one since I was a child.
Thanks again for the reply.

No hope in hell of getting it for home defence, there's no provision for that in Irish law so that door is shut. If you want to target shoot you will have to join a range, complete a competency course and meet the security requirements.

What calibre do you want to get the rifle in? It will be restricted whether it is a .22lr or a .223 etc but it will help decide what ranges you could use.

AncientW

I thought of something like this http://www.atlanticfirearms.com/storeproduct368.aspx . To be honest, whichever caliber has cheaper ammo then I'll get that.

Witcher

If you want cheap ammo then go with a .22lr, it will also mean you could use the rifle at most of the ranges around Ireland.

AncientW

I saw somewhere that a gun license costs 38 euros I think, is this license enough to own the firearm I mentioned?

Witcher

AncientW wrote: »

I saw somewhere that a gun license costs 38 euros I think, is this license enough to own the firearm I mentioned?

It's €80 for 3 years, you'll need a restricted licence issued by your Chief Superintendent when you meet the necessary requirements:)

Cass

Blay wrote: »

It will be restricted whether it is a .22lr or a .223 etc but it will help decide what ranges you could use.

• A semi auto .22lr with a mag capacity of 10 rounds or less is unrestricted.
• All centrefire semi auto rifles are restricted.

It wasn't me!

Ezridax wrote: »

• A semi auto .22lr with a mag capacity of 10 rounds or less is unrestricted.
• All centrefire semi auto rifles are restricted.

If it's an AR15 clone it'll also be restricted, in my opinion, based on "resemblance", but that's eternally arguable. Not an argument I'd like to have, mind!

Cass

Sorry if i seemed like i was "correcting" anyone. Not my intention.

A standard ruger with a 10 tound mag in .22 is unrestricted. However lash on a collapsing stock, pistol grip, quad rail, etc, and then you might be venturing into the resricted zone, based purely on looks. (Which i personally still find ridiculous)

The SI says assault rifles or any rifle that resembles one. That vagueness is the issue, and as you said IWM i would not like to have to argue the point. Too much grief, and costly.

As Blay said above this does not mean they cannot be licensed. It means you face a tougher challenge to prove that the firearm you want is the only one that can suffice where as an unrestricted similar firearm would not.

I have seem a nice few restricted rifles. All resemble the one linked to above, but the lads using them are involved in some form competition where the rifle is a must. I've only met two lads with similar rifles that do not compete, but they obviously made a good enough argument to the Chief Super to warrant getting the rifle.

AncientW

Thank you for the help guys!

tac foley

As there is no way of knowing, I'm not sure if you are actually in Ireland. You spell 'defense' in the American way.

As Ezridax and the others note, wanting one since you were a child is not a 'good reason' - we all have to jump through what seem like an endless selection of hoops to maybe get what we would like, but your very first step, if you live in Ireland, is to join a range/association or club where such types of firearm are already in use by other members.

tac

rowa

Stranger things have happened, but i think its highly unlikely you would be granted a licence for a semi-auto centrefire rifle, you have to be able to give the chief super a very good reason why a different non-restricted rifle won't do the same job, as its for target shooting you will more than likely be told buy a bolt action.The fact its a rifle that appeals to you isn't good enough.

AncientW

That's some messed up laws, whats the difference between a semi-auto centrefire rifle than any other? You can kill someone with any firearm, that's just nonsense. I don't see a reason to keep away those type of rifles from citizens unless they're going to carry it in public...

tac foley

It's not just that you want a semi-auto centrefire rifle/carbine for your very first firearm, it's that you want a semi-auto centrefire rifle/carbine that looks exactly like a military semi-auto centrefire rifle/carbine.

As for your comment - 'I don't see a reason to keep away those type of rifles from citizens unless they're going to carry it in public...' - it is precisely because you MIGHT be seen in public carrying such a firearm that the problems arise. It cannot have escaped your notice that such firearms in the hands of civilians are treated with extreme suspicion by AGS, and with good reason. That good reason is the recent troubled history of this island, something that is unlikely to have escaped anybody's notice in the last forty-something years. Mr Joe Public, seeing you walking around the countryside - a civilian carrying what looks 'one of them black military machine-guns' - would be reaching for his cell-phone in seconds, and you might end up in a world of confusion and deep doo-doo.

Right now, you cannot provide any 'good reason' - that's the legal term, BTW, not something I've just made up - to justify getting permission from your local Garda superintendent to acquire one. As Ezridax points out - 'It means you face a tougher challenge to prove that the firearm you want is the only one that can suffice where as an unrestricted similar firearm would not.'

With respect, you seem to be woefully ignorant of the law and the basic requirements in law to even beginning to consider acquiring any kind of a firearm in the Republic of Ireland.

We have tried to give you the best advice that we can, bearing in mind that we know nothing about you or your circumstances, or even, as I noted previously, if you are in Ireland at all. Perhaps if you were to take some of what we are suggesting to you on board, and get yourself along to your local range and actually find out a little more, we might seem more helpful and you might better understand that our advice is good, and not just jaw-flapping.

tac

packas

If you want a centre fire semi auto find a target shooting discipline with a category for such firearms and take it from there. It will be tough going though. Any I know with 223 AR 15's use them outside of ireland for IPSC rifle shooting. It's gonna be a while
Before IPSC rifle gets going in Ireland I think personally I've had a few of them ( two AR 15's and one HK SL8) over the years and after the thrill of having one wore off I ended up selling it due to the lack of competitions for such firearms. My advice is to find someone who has one and let them
Give you a shot or 2 or 300. That'll help u get it out of our system lol

AncientW

That's true, I read only a couple of lines of the Irish gun law, I'm too lazy to read the whole thing to be honest, and they're awfully boring to read... and yes I do live in Ireland, and that spelling mistake is because I'm from Slovakia... so my English is not that good Thanks for the advice, I think I'll just wait a while and decide if I really want to join a range. And if I will, I'll try and test out different rifles and decide with which one I want to go. Your advice did help me, thank you!

Mike87

A associate of mine has an AR. But before he got it he had to take AGS through the courts and after two or three years of arguing (and a few thousand euros in legal fees) he finally won his case and was able to get it. I often asked him was it worth all the hassle, and he always says yes, but I cant help but wonder myself is it actually worth all that bother. Personally Id rather take that few thousand euro and buy something like:





and then top it off with one of these:






That rifle and scope combination will serve you very well and have great resale value later on- and the licence process will be handier.

AncientW

Haha, there's no way that I am going to pay anything except the license, gun and ammo.

tac foley

In that case, Sir, you are in for a hard ride. In the RoI you have to be an established member at a range and/or club member to justify having a firearm for target use. This can cost a LOT of $$$$$$ [sorry, don't have a euro sign].

Add to that the security cabinet that you also must have, and those $$$ begin to add up.

tac

Mike87

AncientW wrote: »

Haha, there's no way that I am going to pay anything except the license, gun and ammo.

Jakes on you if think its going to be cheap to get setup with shooting

The bills your looking at are:

Secure accomodation- (might find a deal/bargain/secondhand somewhere for 100-150)
competency course- (depends where you get it)
club membership- (Ive just paid mine this week- €300)
insurance- (depends who your with)
licence fee- (80 euro)
then you get the gun.

If you still want a centerfire then your going be looking at nearly €1 a bullet.

The rifle, if you just go for something basic, maybe €600-800. Then some glass another €400. Mounts is another €60-80. Bipod is another €80-100. Silencer (if your hunting) €200-300.

Then say another €50-60 for various bits and peices (cleaning kit, strap, etc)

Sparks

However, you don't need to buy the firearm to start off with; many clubs now have club firearms for beginning shooters to try. You will have to join the club, but the cost varies from club to club and it's on a par with most other sports that have technical equipment or land usage requirements. And most clubs have deals on insurance and it's not that much as a result.

So not free, but not the guts of a grand to see if you like the sport either. (I was shooting for about six years with DURC before buying my own kit - all I ever paid for was club membership and ammo).

AncientW

Huh, that's a big pile of money I'll just drop the AR. I'm not that rich. So... what about this gun? People say it's good for beginners http://www.ruger.com/products/1022Takedown/models.html

rowa

You'll pick up a secondhand cz .22 bolt action for less than €200 , it'll be a tackdriver, easy to get parts for if needed and be easy to sell on when you want to upgrade, and the police will licence it with no hastle if the rest of your ducks are in a row.

juice1304

AncientW wrote: »

Huh, that's a big pile of money I'll just drop the AR. I'm not that rich. So... what about this gun? People say it's good for beginners http://www.ruger.com/products/1022Takedown/models.html

You would also find it easy to licence a 10/22 there are loads and loads of them around. you could shoot small bore gallery rifle with the 10/22

Mike87

AncientW wrote: »

Huh, that's a big pile of money I'll just drop the AR. I'm not that rich. So... what about this gun? People say it's good for beginners http://www.ruger.com/products/1022Takedown/models.html

Ive never had a 10/22 so Im sure someone will correct me if Im wrong.

As far as Im aware, the rifle itself is cheap enough, but out of the box its not that great- or so Ive been told.

You might be better going to a club, spend a few months there and see whats what and get a feel for the different rifles before spending any money.

Like what was said, it is going to cost about a grand to get setup from scratch with a decent rifle. You might aswell make sure its something you actually like before taking the plunge.

No offence to any of the target shooters here, but shooting paper can get a bit dull after a while. ANd its not as if you can go out and set up a few bean tins in a field somewhere.... Your only legally allowed to shoot targets in an authorised target range. Not trying to put you off or anything, just saying before you go spending all that money maybe you should see if you actually like it first.

IRLConor

Mike87 wrote: »

Ive never had a 10/22 so Im sure someone will correct me if Im wrong.

As far as Im aware, the rifle itself is cheap enough, but out of the box its not that great- or so Ive been told.

I've shot some good 10/22s and one absolutely atrocious one. Not all 10/22s are alike, so buy with caution.

If you're looking for something in roughly that price bracket and are willing to have a bolt action rather than a semi-auto, have a look at the various CZ 452 models. They're great value for the money they cost.

tac foley

AncientW wrote: »

Huh, that's a big pile of money I'll just drop the AR. I'm not that rich. So... what about this gun? People say it's good for beginners http://www.ruger.com/products/1022Takedown/models.html

Perhaps I'm making waves here, but I can see, in the climate in which some of you live, that questions might be asked as to why you want to have an easily concealable firearm like this?

tac

Mike87

tac foley wrote: »

Perhaps I'm making waves here, but I can see, in the climate in which some of you live, that questions might be asked as to why you want to have an easily concealable firearm like this?

tac

Tac, I disagree.

Im sure your well aware that in this country getting setup (even with that ruger 10/22 he suggested), its still going to end up costing him about a grand before he has the gun in his hands. And then all the hoops he has to jump through in the meantime- between clubs, secure accomodation, competency course etc..

If a person had bad intentions, it would be far easier and cheaper to source an illegal firearm that also has the distinct advantage of not getting traced back to you after a crime is commited.

Just my .2cents

Witcher

Mike87 wrote: »

Tac, I disagree.

Im sure your well aware that in this country getting setup (even with that ruger 10/22 he suggested), its still going to end up costing him about a grand before he has the gun in his hands. And then all the hoops he has to jump through in the meantime- between clubs, secure accomodation, competency course etc..

If a person had bad intentions, it would be far easier and cheaper to source an illegal firearm that also has the distinct advantage of not getting traced back to you after a crime is commited.

Just my .2cents

I doubt his super will see it that way:pac: They'll be interested in hearing why a standard 10/22 isn't good enough. You could just write 10/22 on the form and leave it at that but if it was me I'd highlight that the rifle can be broken down like that.

Mike87

Blay wrote: »

I doubt his super will see it that way:pac: They'll be interested to hear why a standard 10/22 isn't good enough.

Yep, good point. He will have to explain why he wants a takedown and then if he has plans to make it look like an "assualt rifle" he'll also have to get a restricted licence on top of that.

So yes, I think my point still stands, if he has bad intentions it would be far easier to go down the illegal route.

AncientW

Exactly, if someone would want to commit crime he wouldn't ask for a legal firearm. I don't understand at all why semi-auto rifles like AR-15 are so hard to get - I mean it still shoots bullets like any other gun and it can still hurt anyone the same way as a bolt action or any other gun. And if it would be up to me, I would allow full-auto... carbines? Is that the right word? Why wont they make it so people with 10+ years of experience with firearms could get a license for a full-auto for 50euros give or take. Just set the rifle to 'Safe' put your finger off the trigger and everyone is safe. I hate these laws, it almost seems like they treat you as a junior infant. :mad:

Witcher

AncientW wrote: »

Exactly, if someone would want to commit crime he wouldn't ask for a legal firearm. I don't understand at all why semi-auto rifles like AR-15 are so hard to get - I mean it still shoots bullets like any other gun and it can still hurt anyone the same way as a bolt action or any other gun. And if it would be up to me, I would allow full-auto... carbines? Is that the right word? Why wont they make it so people with 10+ years of experience with firearms could get a license for a full-auto for 50euros give or take. Just set the rifle to 'Safe' put your finger off the trigger and everyone is safe. I hate these laws, it almost seems like they treat you as a junior infant. :mad:

Full auto firearms are outlawed by European law, we couldn't allow them even if we wanted to.

You can get a semi auto centrefire if you have a valid reason for it. But it's highly unlikely you would get one as your first firearm.

Mike87

AncientW wrote: »

I don't understand at all why semi-auto rifles like AR-15 are so hard to get

Well firstly in Ireland you can only have a firearm for two reasons. Hunting or target shooting. And in both those disciplines theres no real need for an AR-15. Hence the reason its so hard to prove you need one. But if you can prove without a shadow of a doubt that you need an AR-15 then you will get one in the morning (providing everything else is in order first).

THe AGS also have to worry about giving you an AR-15, and then you getting robbed of it. Or whos to say in a few years time you wont start going a bit weird in the head and maybe go on a killing spree.

AncientW wrote: »

I mean it still shoots bullets like any other gun and it can still hurt anyone the same way as a bolt action or any other gun.

You keep saying an AR/semi kills just like a bolt action, which is true- but guess which one fires 800 bullets a minute. Which one is designed from the ground up as a combat rifle.

BTW: I get the impression you think all these hoops (clubs/competency course/insurance,secure accomodation etc) and all that money is what you need for a semi-auto. No. Thats how much its going to cost you for any rifle/shotgun/firearm in this country. Like was already said, getting started in shooting isnt cheap.

tac foley

My point, which I think has by now had the ass torn out of it, is me acting as devil's advocate and trying to think as many of your Garda superintendents do - that is to say, with extreme suspicion, as to why anybody would actually PREFER to have a more expensive and readily concealable version of a cheap firearm.

Living, as you do, in a country where the firearms' laws are subject to extreme levels of local interpretation, it seems logical, for a first application, to keep things as simple as possible. Of course, you might opine that I'm over-reacting, but a recent post, resurrected here, reminds us that AGS have a vivid imagination when it comes to firearms law - the seizure of a simple telescopic sight as a 'licensable item' should have made that very clear.

That's all I'm saying.

Incidentally, I have a take-down rifle. It is, as far as the experts know, totally unique, and was made in 1909. It can be seen here, at the bottom of this page -

http://www.rifleman.org.uk/BSA_Model_1.html

tac

Vegeta

Mike87 wrote: »

You keep saying an AR/semi kills just like a bolt action, which is true- but guess which one fires 800 bullets a minute.

800 rounds a minute with a semi auto, someone has a quick trigger finger

BTW: I get the impression you think all these hoops (clubs/competency course/insurance,secure accomodation etc) and all that money is what you need for a semi-auto. No. Thats how much its going to cost you for any rifle/shotgun/firearm in this country. Like was already said, getting started in shooting isnt cheap.

Hunting isn't. Gun Club membership and Insurance 100 euro. Safe, second hand shotgun and license could be picked up for 400 quid.

garv123

tac foley wrote: »

Perhaps I'm making waves here, but I can see, in the climate in which some of you live, that questions might be asked as to why you want to have an easily concealable firearm like this?

tac

Its a .22 with a 18.5" barrel..What's easily concealable about that?

A lot of cz's have a 16" factory barrel..

juice1304

garv123 wrote: »

Its a .22 with a 18.5" barrel..What's easily concealable about that?

A lot of cz's have a 16" factory barrel..

It's the takedown version you can split the rifle in two and put it in any backpack easily.

Mike87

Vegeta wrote: »

800 rounds a minute with a semi auto, someone has a quick trigger finger

Yeh I thought that myself but when I was in the states me and a friend bought an AR and it said in the manual the rate of fire is 800 rounds per minute. Although thats more or less what the rifle is capable of, not necessairly what you are capable of. Similar to those 50 cals hitting center mass on a person at over a mile away, the weapon is up to it- but is the shooter.


EDIT: Just to be clear, it was my friend bought the rifle not me- I just tagged along for the free shooting

Witcher

Put a slide fire stock on it and it's nearly full auto:pac:

tac foley

garv123 wrote: »

Its a .22 with a 18.5" barrel..What's easily concealable about that?

A lot of cz's have a 16" factory barrel..

Please read what the OP wrote in post #24 -

Quote - 'Huh, that's a big pile of money I'll just drop the AR. I'm not that rich. So... what about this gun? People say it's good for beginners http://www.ruger.com/products/1022Takedown/models.html '

The Ruger 10/22 takedown model has a quickly-removable barrel assembly that makes the gun divide into two compact pieces.

To tell the truth I'm not certain whether such a 'concealable' firearm is actually legal in the RoI, let alone available yet. I was in Oregon last month and my local gun store was still awaiting his shipment. I hope that I can be put right, or wrong, as the case may be.

tac

garv123

tac foley wrote: »

Please read what the OP wrote in post #24 -

Quote - 'Huh, that's a big pile of money I'll just drop the AR. I'm not that rich. So... what about this gun? People say it's good for beginners http://www.ruger.com/products/1022Takedown/models.html '

The Ruger 10/22 takedown model has a quickly-removable barrel assembly that makes the gun divide into two compact pieces.

To tell the truth I'm not certain whether such a 'concealable' firearm is actually legal in the RoI, let alone available yet. I was in Oregon last month and my local gun store was still awaiting his shipment. I hope that I can be put right, or wrong, as the case may be.

tac

Ah apologies I didnt realise it broke into 2.

tac foley

garv123 wrote: »

Ah apologies I didnt realise it broke into 2.

That's what 'take-down' means. Have a look at my little rifle in the link that I provided - in that one the whole barrel and action comes out of the stock, but in the Ruger model the barrel comes out of the action.

tac

Sparks

Mind you, going by these definitions, every single ISSF rifle in the country is "concealable" because they are all in effect takedown stocks to one degree or another, whether it's just the buttplate that comes off or whether it's something like the new air rifle stocks:



It's not for concealability; it's because it lets you use a smaller, lighter Peli and pay less excess baggage when going to matches abroad. I would imagine the same is true of the 10/22 (hate that rifle btw, I prefer ones that are accurate when you buy them, not after you've spent two to three times the price of the rifle in aftermarket parts and done the manufacturer's job for them). A concealable firearm, to me at least, means one that is concealed in a usable condition, not one that's basicly in pieces that need to be assembled before you can use it. Otherwise, a bag of spare parts or a lump of iron ore could be concealed firearms

(BTW Mike, there are other reasons for having a firearm past hunting and target shooting, vets have them for humane dispatch, athletics clubs have starter pistols, etc, etc, etc...)

Mike87

Sparks wrote: »

(BTW Mike, there are other reasons for having a firearm past hunting and target shooting, vets have them for humane dispatch, athletics clubs have starter pistols, etc, etc, etc...)

Good point there Sparks Next time I have the dog with the vet I'll have to ask him does he have a pistol Suppose they can probably licence a centerfire pistol if they want can they?

Sparks

Not any more; as I understood it, they normally prefer captive bolt devices, but during the Foot&Mouth outbreak, they used pistols under Garda supervision.

tac foley

Sparks wrote: »

Mind you, going by these definitions, every single ISSF rifle in the country is "concealable" because they are all in effect takedown stocks to one degree or another, whether it's just the buttplate that comes off or whether it's something like the new air rifle stocks:



It's not for concealability; it's because it lets you use a smaller, lighter Peli and pay less excess baggage when going to matches abroad. I would imagine the same is true of the 10/22 (hate that rifle btw, I prefer ones that are accurate when you buy them, not after you've spent two to three times the price of the rifle in aftermarket parts and done the manufacturer's job for them). A concealable firearm, to me at least, means one that is concealed in a usable condition, not one that's basicly in pieces that need to be assembled before you can use it. Otherwise, a bag of spare parts or a lump of iron ore could be concealed firearms

(BTW Mike, there are other reasons for having a firearm past hunting and target shooting, vets have them for humane dispatch, athletics clubs have starter pistols, etc, etc, etc...)

I totally disagree with you, sir. The OP does not appear to be interested in either an ISSF rifle, or taking his firearm abroad. What he IS interested in is getting started in shooting for the very least amount of money necessary.

My point about a gun in the lower price market that is principally designed to be taken to pieces as a matter of convenience to the shooter is that it is not only more expensive than the basic 10/22 carbine [an already compact firearm] but is bound, in the RoI, to engender questions from the PTB.

I'm out.

tac

Sparks

tac foley wrote: »

I totally disagree with you, sir. The OP does not appear to be interested in either an ISSF rifle, or taking his firearm abroad. What he IS interested in is getting started in shooting for the very least amount of money necessary.

My point about a gun in the lower price market that is principally designed to be taken to pieces as a matter of convencience to the shooter is that it is not only more expensive than the basic 10/22 carbine [an already compact firearm] but is bound, in the RoI, to engender questions from the PTB.

I'm out.

tac

And my point, which you seem to have missed as well, is that "takedown" does not mean "concealable", and the AGS have no problem licencing takedown firearms.

Mike87

Sparks wrote: »

And my point, which you seem to have missed as well, is that "takedown" does not mean "concealable", and the AGS have no problem licencing takedown firearms.

I think the point Tac was getting at was that a takedown firearm, although not shootable whilst broken, can still be transported easily without arousing suspicion. And to be fair, although I missed his the point the first time around (sorry Tac ), I think he might be onto something- just because everybody here on boards/shooting knows better doesnt mean the AGS will.

tac foley

Sparks wrote: »

And my point, which you seem to have missed as well, is that "takedown" does not mean "concealable", and the AGS have no problem licencing takedown firearms.

Fine. Let's see it happen, eh?

As has been proven many times on this and other fora, AGS has some rather 'individual lateral thinking' when it comes to the identification of firearms types.

I have yet to see any sign whatsoever of 'joined-up thinking' in Irish firearms law, let alone by those individuals charged with its 'interpretation'.

tac